The Good Bad & Ugly

QuestioningMind · Dec 27, 2020

nPeace said:
Get rid of what? Headship arrangement? Lol.
That's like trying to invade a man's house and tell him how to use his toilet, cook his food, and wash him armpits. Lol.
The headship arangement is here to stay, beyond your death. It is what has been holding society together, for centuries, from totally collapsing.
Maybe your attempts are what's keeping you disunited, especially with the East.
Oh dear.

Polygamy was tolerated. Acts 17:30 ; Romans 9:22 It was never God's will, and it brought unhappiness. Genesis 2:24 ; Matthew 19:5, 6 Those who practiced it, learned the hard way.

The text is not talking about women's worth. Please study the Bible, rather than read words off the page.
Desperation leads to these kind of things.
The verses show consideration for women, especially widows, and since the men usually were the providers, it is reasonable that they contribute more.
The virgin, and the widow gave willingly also, but consider was given to their circumstances.
This shows God's love, and tender compassion.

Why not just say you hate God because he kills people, fullstop, and quit digging into the Bible looking for an valid excuse, when there is none. Same goes for @QuestioningMind.
Again, study the Bible. Was it not clearly stated, why the young girls were spared.
You don't know why the young boys were killed? I am tempted to feed you everything, but that's no help to you, if you intend to page through the Bible looking for an excuse to paint God to how you want.
Read from the book of Genesis to Esther, and see if you get the answer.

Ha Ha. I have to say, you do try hard. That's a good spirit, if you are not directing your blows at the air.
Did you actually study the account, or did you just read it? No need to answer. I know the answer.
Where in the text does it say slaughter the animals? How is this similar to Amalek's demise? Who were the Midianites... do you have any idea?
Were these included in the nations God was wiping out for their defiling practices?
Here ... Do you want scriptures to read? Try these...
Deuteronomy 7:1-4 ; Deuteronomy 13:12-18 ; Deuteronomy 20:15-20 ; Joshua 11:16-23

What the Midianites did was punishable, but it was not the same situation as the nations under God's radar, and in his crosshairs.... until the irreprehensible act they committed.

Opinion noted.

Why not just say you hate God because he kills people, fullstop, and quit digging into the Bible looking for an valid excuse, when there is none. Same goes for @QuestioningMind.

IF your god is real and IF your bible accurately depicts this god then yes I absolutely would hate this despicable being who promotes slavery and genocide. The question is how can anyone who claims to have a moral center actually worship such a monster?

You've demonstrated that the only way to do so is to try and argue that slavery is a GOOD thing and that slaves should be grateful to their masters just because they don't just kill them outright. Such a compassionate and loving perspective your god promotes.

nPeace · Dec 27, 2020

QuestioningMind said:
Why not just say you hate God because he kills people, fullstop, and quit digging into the Bible looking for an valid excuse, when there is none. Same goes for @QuestioningMind.

IF your god is real and IF your bible accurately depicts this god then yes I absolutely would hate this despicable being who promotes slavery and genocide. The question is how can anyone who claims to have a moral center actually worship such a monster?

You've demonstrated that the only way to do so is to try and argue that slavery is a GOOD thing and that slaves should be grateful to their masters just because they don't just kill them outright. Such a compassionate and loving perspective your god promotes.

It all has to do with knowledge - not any apparent knowledge - but accurate knowledge - Knowing the one being accused, and being able to stand on that one's side, because of knowing the source of the baseless claims and twisted reasoning and whimsical "morals" the world pretends are morals.
The "justice" in this world is a joke. Money is the force that fuels this world. It's ugly.

The millions that see the beauty in the Bible, can see through the thick gloom that clouds the vision of the godless.
One way or the other, the world is going to wake up, even it to sudden unimaginable terror.

QuestioningMind · Dec 27, 2020

nPeace said:
It all has to do with knowledge - not any apparent knowledge - but accurate knowledge - Knowing the one being accused, and being able to stand on that one's side, because of knowing the source of the baseless claims and twisted reasoning and whimsical "morals" the world pretends are morals.
The "justice" in this world is a joke. Money is the force that fuels this world. It's ugly.

The millions that see the beauty in the Bible, can see through the thick gloom that clouds the vision of the godless.
One way or the other, the world is going to wake up, even it to sudden unimaginable terror.

If seeing the beauty in the bible means being forced to try and justify slavery as a moral act as you have repeatedly tried to do then I don't want to have anything to do with it. And I find it extremely sad and disheartening that there are people who do.

epronovost · Dec 27, 2020

nPeace said:
Get rid of what? Headship arrangement? Lol.
That's like trying to invade a man's house and tell him how to use his toilet, cook his food, and wash him armpits. Lol.
The headship arangement is here to stay, beyond your death. It is what has been holding society together, for centuries, from totally collapsing.
Maybe your attempts are what's keeping you disunited, especially with the East.
Oh dear.

Yeah absolutely and the destruction of this vile idea of male headship has allowed humanity to flourish like never before. There's a reason why any and all effort to lift people out of poverty starts with familly planning initiative and women emancipation. Forcing half your adult population in a position of subserviance based on their gender is a terribly stupid thing.

The text is not talking about women's worth. Please study the Bible, rather than read words off the page.
Desperation leads to these kind of things.
The verses show consideration for women, especially widows, and since the men usually were the providers, it is reasonable that they contribute more.
The virgin, and the widow gave willingly also, but consider was given to their circumstances.
This shows God's love, and tender compassion.

The passage is talking about the price of slaves, male and female of two different age group (children and adults). It doesn't talk about widows or providers or evn discuss their virgnity. It doesn't mention anything about their health, size, weight, education, forme social status, trade or if they are married, have themselves children. It talks about the base market price for slaves in the Kingdom of Israel. It simply state that female slaves as a rule should be almost half the price of male slaves because the Hebrew valued men above women. You are inventing things to fit your narrative that is not in the text.

Read from the book of Genesis to Esther, and see if you get the answer.

I did. I remembered those passage and you did not. You now try to avoid the uncomfortable truth of having to defend such evil acts.

Ha Ha. I have to say, you do try hard. That's a good spirit, if you are not directing your blows at the air.
Did you actually study the account, or did you just read it? No need to answer. I know the answer.
Where in the text does it say slaughter the animals? How is this similar to Amalek's demise? Who were the Midianites... do you have any idea?

Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

As you can see in the highlighted portion of the text. The animals of the Amalekites had to be slaughtered too. What God commands to the people of Israel is to commit a radical form of genocide toward an enemy nation as a vengeance for them rejecting His absolute rule and for having ambushed and attacked the Israelites as they were in exile from Egypt. The reason for the extermination is even mentionned above. It's specifically as a revenge for attacks from the Amalekites upon them earlier. Note that Saul is punished for completing this task to the letter for he spared the Amalekite king and the best of his cattle for his soldiers.

Of course in actual history, outside of the perview of Jewish mythology, there never was an exodus and the Amalekite, if they even existed under such a name, were one of the numerous tribes of Canaan, just like the Hebrew/Israelite themselves. Though there is numerous records from the Assyrians and Egyptians about the various client tribes that were living under their thumb or as "tampon State" in the area, none of them make reference to the Amalekite though some ruins of fortified settlement left by nomadic people in the more desertic region might be attributable to them. More probably, the name Amalekite is fictionnal, but inspired by some known tribe of the region, most likely

Here ... Do you want scriptures to read? Try these...
Deuteronomy 7:1-4 ; Deuteronomy 13:12-18 ; Deuteronomy 20:15-20 ; Joshua 11:16-23

Yes that god is a vile monster who commands the destruction of nations and overt racism. Do you stand by those words and those commands who do you oppose them as the vile idiocies of a sanguinary tyrant?

nPeace · Dec 28, 2020

epronovost said:
Yeah absolutely and the destruction of this vile idea of male headship has allowed humanity to flourish like never before. There's a reason why any and all effort to lift people out of poverty starts with familly planning initiative and women emancipation. Forcing half your adult population in a position of subserviance based on their gender is a terribly stupid thing.

The passage is talking about the price of slaves, male and female of two different age group (children and adults). It doesn't talk about widows or providers or evn discuss their virgnity. It doesn't mention anything about their health, size, weight, education, forme social status, trade or if they are married, have themselves children. It talks about the base market price for slaves in the Kingdom of Israel. It simply state that female slaves as a rule should be almost half the price of male slaves because the Hebrew valued men above women. You are inventing things to fit your narrative that is not in the text.

I did. I remembered those passage and you did not. You now try to avoid the uncomfortable truth of having to defend such evil acts.

Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

As you can see in the highlighted portion of the text. The animals of the Amalekites had to be slaughtered too. What God commands to the people of Israel is to commit a radical form of genocide toward an enemy nation as a vengeance for them rejecting His absolute rule and for having ambushed and attacked the Israelites as they were in exile from Egypt. The reason for the extermination is even mentionned above. It's specifically as a revenge for attacks from the Amalekites upon them earlier. Note that Saul is punished for completing this task to the letter for he spared the Amalekite king and the best of his cattle for his soldiers.

Of course in actual history, outside of the perview of Jewish mythology, there never was an exodus and the Amalekite, if they even existed under such a name, were one of the numerous tribes of Canaan, just like the Hebrew/Israelite themselves. Though there is numerous records from the Assyrians and Egyptians about the various client tribes that were living under their thumb or as "tampon State" in the area, none of them make reference to the Amalekite though some ruins of fortified settlement left by nomadic people in the more desertic region might be attributable to them. More probably, the name Amalekite is fictionnal, but inspired by some known tribe of the region, most likely

Yes that god is a vile monster who commands the destruction of nations and overt racism. Do you stand by those words and those commands who do you oppose them as the vile idiocies of a sanguinary tyrant?

I will address only one thing in this post, because I really don't know if you are listening, reading, or just complaining, without a care for what is written.
I am not shouting. The emphasis is to make sure you can see what is written.

Where in the text Numbers 31:1-20 does it say slaughter the animals?
You wanted to know why the animals were killed, and not the virgins.
The account in Numbers, and the one with the Amalekites, are two different accounts.
No virgin was to be spared of the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:1-4, 17-19). No living breathing thing was to be spared... except of, course, the ants... I guess there were a few centipedes, some worms... You get the picture.
This was not the case with the Midianites, mentioned at Numbers. Hence the virgins could be spared because they were not a part of a nation whose practices were so detestable, that to eat certain animals would cause diseases leading to God knows what. and be passed on to generations.

I stand by that, and on the side of God who acted to cleanse the land, and protect his people who were to inhabit that land.

This is good.
God's justice is good.
God's ways are right, and always good.
There is nothing bad about the way God has acted, past, present, and he will continue to act for the good of his people in the future.

If you don't care about this God, that's fine. I am sure he won't miss you. Enjoy your fish in Egypt.

Eat all you wish.

According to the following texts, God's people will always have a banquet... and they will do so for ever.

Isaiah 25:6
In this mountain Jehovah of armies will make for all the peoples A banquet of rich dishes, A banquet of fine wine, Of rich dishes filled with marrow, Of fine, filtered wine.
Isaiah 65:13, 14
13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry. Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty. Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame. 14 Look! My servants will shout joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, But you will cry out because of the pain of heart And you will wail because of a broken spirit.

Why? Scripture says, they know him, and are known by him.

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
As I said the UGLY part is how normally descent people can try and justify something as disgusting as slavery. The bible does NOT say you can make slaves out of prisoners! It VERY CLEARLY says that you can BUY then from the nations around you.

New International Version
"'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

New Living Translation
“However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you.

English Standard Version
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.

Berean Study Bible
Your menservants and maidservants shall come from the nations around you, from whom you may purchase them.

New American Standard Bible
'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have-- you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.

New King James Version
And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.

King James Bible
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Christian Standard Bible
Your male and female slaves are to be from the nations around you; you may purchase male and female slaves.

Contemporary English Version
If you want slaves, buy them from other nations

Good News Translation
If you need slaves, you may buy them from the nations around you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Your male and female slaves are to be from the nations around you; you may purchase male and female slaves.

International Standard Version
"As for your male and maid slaves who will be with you, you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations.

NET Bible
"'As for your male and female slaves who may belong to you--you may buy male and female slaves from the nations all around you.

New Heart English Bible
"'As for your male and your female slaves, whom you may have; of the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.

A Faithful Version
Both your male slaves, and your female slaves whom you shall have, shall be of the nations that are all around you. You shall buy male slaves and female slaves from them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"You may have male and female slaves, but buy them from the nations around you.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

New American Standard 1977
‘As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.

King James 2000 Bible
Both your male and female slaves, whom you shall have, shall be of the nations that are round about you; of them shall you buy male and female slaves.

American King James Version
Both your slaves, and your bondmaids, which you shall have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall you buy slaves and bondmaids.

American Standard Version
And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou shalt have; of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
And whatever number of men-servants and maid-servants thou shalt have, thou shalt purchase male and female servants from the nations that are round about thee.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let your bondmen, and your bondwomen, be of the nations that are round about you.

Darby Bible Translation
And as for thy bondman and thy handmaid whom thou shalt have -- of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and handmaids.

English Revised Version
And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have; of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Webster's Bible Translation
Both thy bond-men, and thy bond-maids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are around you; of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids.

World English Bible
"'As for your male and your female slaves, whom you may have; of the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.

Young's Literal Translation
And thy man-servant and thy handmaid whom thou hast are of the nations who are round about you; of them ye buy man-servant and handmaid,

Here's the problem I see with that, QuestioningMind: slavery is practiced in many different ways. What first comes to mind are the factories hiring children, or immigrants (legal or illegal) at low wages. That's only a beginning of looking at the surface. Then, of course, I can go to the farms here in many countries that hire foreign workers desperate to make money at a very low wage with very bad conditions. OK, that's only a starter. I won't discuss more present-day types of slavery right now. There's more, much more.

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Here's the problem I see with that, QuestioningMind: slavery is practiced in many different ways. What first comes to mind are the factories hiring children, or immigrants (legal or illegal) at low wages. That's only a beginning of looking at the surface. Then, of course, I can go to the farms here in many countries that hire foreign workers desperate to make money at a very low wage with very bad conditions. OK, that's only a starter. I won't discuss more present-day types of slavery right now. There's more, much more.

How does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves invalidate the claim that the bible condones slavery? And how does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves justify treating people as literal slaves in the past?

I'm failing to see what your 'problem' is.

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
How does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves invalidate the claim that the bible condones slavery? And how does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves justify treating people as literal slaves in the past?

I'm failing to see what your 'problem' is.

In general slaves were taken as a result of war. Or indentured service. While there can be advantages to some forms of service, such as someone needing to make money and getting a good job, it's similar to a form (albeit a not-so-bad) of slavery. In order to abolish all forms of present day type slavery, only God can do that.

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
How does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves invalidate the claim that the bible condones slavery? And how does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves justify treating people as literal slaves in the past?

I'm failing to see what your 'problem' is.

The Bible also allowed taking more than one wife. So? It went to a degree with the times. Right from the beginning, after Eve sinned, she was from then on in difficult subjection to her husband. In the Jewish system of things, slaves were to be treated fairly. There were rules and restrictions.

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
How does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves invalidate the claim that the bible condones slavery? And how does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves justify treating people as literal slaves in the past?

I'm failing to see what your 'problem' is.

Furthermore, there are governments that do not hold to any form of biblical concept that have various forms of slavery. And cruel slavery and mistreatment. Only God's kingdom will and can solve these problems. This is why Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God, "Let your kingdom come."

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
How does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves invalidate the claim that the bible condones slavery? And how does the fact that we still treat some people like virtual slaves justify treating people as literal slaves in the past?

I'm failing to see what your 'problem' is.

Husbands and wives can abuse one another. They can abuse children. Governments can make slaves in various ways of citizens and others.

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
In general slaves were taken as a result of war. Or indentured service. While there can be advantages to some forms of service, such as someone needing to make money and getting a good job, it's similar to a form (albeit a not-so-bad) of slavery. In order to abolish all forms of present day type slavery, only God can do that.

The bible says you should BUY your slaves from the nations around you. That's NOT slaves taken as a result of war. And yes, indentured servitude applied to owning fellow Hebrews... but the people bought from other nations were slaves for life and could be given to ones children after you die.

Why would your god want to abolish modern day slavery when he has no problem whatsoever with old fashioned slavery?

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
The Bible also allowed taking more than one wife. So? It went to a degree with the times. Right from the beginning, after Eve sinned, she was from then on in difficult subjection to her husband. In the Jewish system of things, slaves were to be treated fairly. There were rules and restrictions.

Wow... you have a truly bizarre definition of 'fairly'. So you think it's 'fair' for a slave owner to beat their slave, just as long as the slave doesn't die within a couple of days from the beating? Would you allow me to own you under such rules and restrictions?

And what does 'the times' have to do with anything? If your god could tell his creations not to work on the sabbath, how hard would it have been to say don't own other people as property? Instead, he tells them the exact opposite.

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
Wow... you have a truly bizarre definition of 'fairly'. So you think it's 'fair' for a slave owner to beat their slave, just as long as the slave doesn't die within a couple of days from the beating? Would you allow me to own you under such rules and restrictions?

And what does 'the times' have to do with anything? If your god could tell his creations not to work on the sabbath, how hard would it have been to say don't own other people as property? Instead, he tells them the exact opposite.

Let's go back to evolution. Is dominance by force animalistic? Because that's how it works out considering the state of mankind.

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Furthermore, there are governments that do not hold to any form of biblical concept that have various forms of slavery. And cruel slavery and mistreatment. Only God's kingdom will and can solve these problems. This is why Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God, "Let your kingdom come."

Well, if god can solve the problem he's doing an absolutely terrible job of it. In fact, he's responsible for having kept slavery around far longer than it should have. By very specifically stating that he has no problem whatsoever with slavery in the bible he ensured that Christians would quote the bible in defense of their slave ownership.

Any god that promotes slavery is an immoral being and is hardly worthy of anyone's worship.

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Husbands and wives can abuse one another. They can abuse children. Governments can make slaves in various ways of citizens and others.

Yes, they can, And you'd think that a moral god would have very clearly denounced the practice of slavery long ago. Sadly, he did the opposite and told people that he's perfectly fine with the practice.

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Let's go back to evolution. Is dominance by force animalistic? Because that's how it works out considering the state of mankind.

What does any of that have to do with your supposedly 'moral' god telling people that it's perfectly okay to own other people as property?

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
What does any of that have to do with your supposedly 'moral' god telling people that it's perfectly okay to own other people as property?

Go to the courts of law and see just how free anyone is anyway.

YoursTrue · Jan 8, 2021

QuestioningMind said:
Yes, they can, And you'd think that a moral god would have very clearly denounced the practice of slavery long ago. Sadly, he did the opposite and told people that he's perfectly fine with the practice.

He denounced cruelty.
One might ask, Does the Bible Condone Slavery?
Love, one of the basic principles of godly devotion, is diametrically opposed to the concept of oppressive slavery. Of course some people wonder about the mention of slavery in the Bible.
God allowed his people to own slaves in ancient times. (Genesis 14:14, 15) And in the days of the apostles, some Christians were slave owners and some were slaves. (Philemon 15, 16) Does this mean that the Bible condones oppressive slavery? In order to justly answer that question, I suggest you read the following. Does the Bible Condone Slavery? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

QuestioningMind · Jan 8, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Go to the courts of law and see just how free anyone is anyway.

As flawed as courts of law may be, at least they'd condemn me as a criminal if I were to try and force you to be my slave. Sadly your god would be fine with it, just as long as I don't beat you to death. I'll take the flawed morality of the courts over the blatant immorality of your god any day.

The Good Bad & Ugly

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