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When does the rapture take place?

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
You are welcome to believe as you wish but soon enough we all die and our outcome becomes a higher authority's reality:

Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

To sustain his fantasy about the future, you have to adopt a hyper-Calvinist world view in which every decision and action you take has been decreed by God since before creation. That mean that a person's decision to reject God and burn in hell forever was decreed by God from the beginning. That defies one of his supposed traits of mercy.
 
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Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Sorry but I have no time to argue but for those who believe the bible is the Word of God there are very distinct truths that clearly point toward a very sure outcome told in advance but only those whose eyes are opened will it be evident:

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;

So you didn't really come here for a debate, though this forum is Religious Debates.
That leaves a couple of other possible motives:
1. To teach the blind
2. To seek affirmation of your beliefs.

If you came here to teach the blind, why tell them to bugger off when they disagree with you?
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Good morning folks!

Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Is there any scripture I missed?

Good morning. The idea of the rapture wasn't even a thing until John Nelson Darby wrote a book about it in the 1800s.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Good morning folks!

Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Is there any scripture I missed?

I read your hyperlink and I find it a strong argument.

Zechariah 14:4,5 and Acts 1:11 indicate a return of Christ in glory. What kind of presence do you suppose this to be?
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Good morning. The idea of the rapture wasn't even a thing until John Nelson Darby wrote a book about it in the 1800s.

Actually, this is not really true. There is a books from between the 4th and 8th centuries attributed to Ephraem the Syrian that says that believers will be taken out before the tribulation. This book in at least a thousand years earlier than Darby.

Just pointing that out for fairness. I don't have a dog in this fight.

Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem - Wikipedia
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

When does the rapture take place?

You had me going when you asked this.

I thought you were going to tell it.

Like specifically.

Is there any scripture I missed?

Maybe.

Like there's only one place in Scripture that spells out the timing of the coming of Messiah.

It's the only way that the three wise men could have known to be looking for His star in the east, so they came to worship Him.

They might have been the grandchildren of the magicians and soothsayers that Daniel saved from the fiery furnace when they couldn't tell what Nebuchadnezzar's dream was.

Jesus said in Mark that the time was fulfilled and that the Kingdom of God was at hand.

The TIME that He was talking about was the Daniel 9 time, the 7 and 62 weeks.

I think that time has been completed again and we are already into the secondary application of the last heptad.

The chances of there being two modern day decrees set out at a specific 62 and 7 weeks and punctuated by a "darkened" sun is about zero.

Find the decrees, you win Newton's riddle.

There's a guy who wrote a Kindle book that I was talking to.

He thinks it's 2029 to 2036 based on two trips of the asteroid Apophis.

I told him in 2019 that I think it's happening now.

The time is fulfilled again.

Covid is just one of the signs that the Dragon is given the power to do on behalf of, or in the presence of, the composite beast.

chinese-dragon-flyer_54199-1853.jpg



By the time Apophis hits, we will probably be watching it from a window in the comfort and safety of New Jerusalem.


blog.jpg


Lift up your heads.
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
No worries at all?

You think that the plague will go away, and we go back to "normal"?

Not just Covid itself, but how the plague has the world on edge.

Sort of how it seems a catalyst of change, but not in a positive way.

And with it's new mutations now, in various jurisdictions, it doesn't seem to be going gently into that good night.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Good morning folks!

Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Is there any scripture I missed?

Greetings Moby. I am sorry but I don't like to click on links that lead outside websites I visit if I am unfamiliar with the person posting the link. So could not read your comment.

The Bible clearly teaches that God's 144,000 anointed Christian congregation will all be in heaven as immortal spirit creatures. It is quite clear that it happens after the tribulation that Jesus talked about. He says exactly:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."-Matthew 24:29-31.

So while the resurrection to heaven takes place "immediately after the tribulation of those days." it is not a rapture in the sense Christendom paints it to be. All the anointed have to die in order to receive their heavenly reward. And they are not taken to heaven in their physical bodies. They are recreated in immortal spirit bodies with divine nature and power like that of Jesus Christ their adopted brother, and Jehovah God their Father.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Good morning folks!

Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Is there any scripture I missed?
One of the biggest mistakes one can make when reading the Bible is to think that the entire Bible applies to them. That is not the case. It looks like you are mixing up that which God meant for Israel with that which is meant for the church. Now it is true that we can learn from the OT (Rom 15:4), but Christians need to keep in mind that the OT is not written to them. It would be like reading a letter addressed to someone else and thinking everything it said was meant for themselves.

It is important to realize that everything Jesus did when he was here was to and for Israel. When a Gentile woman asked to heal her daughter, Jesus said,

Matt 15:24,

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Of course, because of God's grace and her believing, Jesus was told by God to heal the woman's daughter. But that does not negate the truth that Jesus came to and for Israel, not the Gentiles. Gentiles were out of luck throughout the entire OT, including the Gospels.

Eph 2:12,

That at that time [before Pentecost and the new birth) ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Israel was God's chosen people. He of course made many promises to them, one of the chief ones being that they would have an everlasting kingdom of their own. Well, Jesus came and there was no kingdom set up. Instead the Jews killed the king. At the death and resurrection of Jesus, the promised kingdom was left unfulfilled. But that doesn't mean all the promises God made to Israel will never get fulfilled. They will. That is precisely what Revelation is all about. It is God working with Israel to set up the kingdom He promised them in Genesis to John.

What about all the books between John's Gospel and Revelation? That is what Paul [by revelation] calls a mystery that was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul.

Eph 3:9,

And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now [Now when? After Pentecost when the new birth became available] is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

Nobody had Christ in them in the OT, including the gospels. Christ in you is the new birth and it was kept secret for a very good reason.

1Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Why would the devil not have killed Jesus had he known the mystery? When Jesus was here on the earth there was one Jesus, in one place at a time, doing one thing. Now, since all Christians have Christ in them (Col 1:27), there are hundreds of millions of Christ's all over the world who are capable of doing everything Jesus did and even more. In speaking of the time after his future resurection, Jesus said,

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Wherever there is a Christian, there is Christ. The only thing the devil could do after he made his mistake, was to keep Christians from knowing the mystery that Paul talks about in his Epistles. Sad to say, as evidenced by a lack of preaching on Paul's mystery, the devil has been highly successful.

Eph 3:1-3,

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

Most Christians are under the impression that there are 4 gospels. The scriptures say different. Specifically, the Apostle Paul was given a gospel from God.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my [Paul's] gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John will not establish the Christian. One could read them all day long for 100 years and they will not be established. Romans 16:25 is clear that it is only through Paul's gospel that the Christian can be established.

One of the key elements of Paul's gospel is given in Thessalonians:

1Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The wrath to come is that of Revelation. Christians are spared from that wrath because we won't be on the earth when it comes.

1 Thess 4:13-18,

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
There is no way anybody could not be filled with intense apprehension and fear thinking they will have to endure the tribulation. It would hardly be a comfort, which is clearly God's will for the Christian.
To summarize:

To get the story of Israel, read Genesis to John and then Revelation. The books between (Acts through Jude) are meant for born again believers and tell a rather different story than that of Israel. It is the story of Christendom. One of the differences is that we will be caught up into the clouds with Jesus before the events of Revelation. Since we are the lights of the world, that world will be plunged into utter darkness, otherwise called the tribulation. We'll be long gone before that takes place.

Notice the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we will be with the Lord forevermore after he gathers us together in the clouds. Revelation (and many other verses) say Jesus will come to earth the second time as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He'll be cleaning house. The money changers in the temple Jesus cleared out will be chump change compared to his next appearance. One the things Revelation says is that Jesus will be accompanied by an army when he comes again. Who do you think that might be? Well, if we will have been gathered together in the clouds to be forevermore with the Lord, then when he comes, we'll be right there with him. We will be the Jesus' army. We will be the ones to help Jesus kick some devil butt! No wonder 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says to comfort one another with these words! I'd hardly think it a comfort to go through the tribulation.

For a more in depth look at all of this, I'd like to suggest:

https://christianovercomers.com/pdf_files/Commentary_On_Revelation_Bullinger.pdf
God bless you brother.


 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Good morning folks!

Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Is there any scripture I missed?
After a long and deep 1 minute of study, I concluded that the rapture will never take place :)

ciao

- viole
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
After a long and deep 1 minute of study, I concluded that the rapture will never take place

Old man Jonah sittin' in his chair got no teeth and he got no hair
He got no daughter and he got no son
He's just waitin' till the rapture come
I said he, waitin' till the rapture come

He never did marry and he never went far
Never bought a house or a big ole car
But he ain't no beggar and he sure ain't dumb
He's just waitin' till the rapture come
I said he, waitin' till the rapture come

And when the rapture come, Lord gonna call out his name
(When the rapture come)
Jonah gonna put down his cane
(When the rapture come)
Heaven gonna call him away
But until that day

Old man Jonah's got an old brass horn
He's had it since the day that he was reborn
But he ain't gonna blow for just anyone
He's gonna wait till the rapture come
I said he, waitin' till the rapture come

And when the rapture come, Lord gonna call out his name
(When the rapture come)
Oh, Jonah gonna put down his cane
(When the rapture come)
And heaven gonna take him away
But until that day

Preacher come a-walkin' down that country mile
He said, "Hey Jo you know it's been a while"
But Jonah keep his eyes on the settin' sun
He's just waitin' till the rapture come
I said he, waitin' till the rapture come

And when the rapture come, Lord gonna call out his name
(When the rapture come)
Jonah gonna put down his cane
(When the rapture come)
Heaven gonna call him away
But until that day

Oh, go come, come rapture come
I said, come, come, come, come rapture come
Come, come, come, come rapture come
Come, come, come, come rapture come
Come, come, come, come rapture come
Said, come, come, come, come rapture come
Well, come on in now
Come and take me away Lord
Come and take me away Lord
Come and take me away Lord


Chow Mein

- Dave
 

Moby

Member
Ok... the problem is that you never addressed my point. You quoted a multitude of scriptures that had nothing to do with it.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Noah didn't receive the wrath of his tie... Jesus is my Ark.

Matthew 24:37
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Sorry had to step out for a bit! If you had read the link you would have noticed I touched on every point you brought up.
 

Moby

Member
To sustain his fantasy about the future, you have to adopt a hyper-Calvinist world view in which every decision and action you take has been decreed by God since before creation. That mean that a person's decision to reject God and burn in hell forever was decreed by God from the beginning. That defies one of his supposed traits of mercy.
We all prove that none of us are worthy of eternal life but by His great mercy extended to many a few actually chose to make their calling and election sure:

2 Peter 1:8-11 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. (10) Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble: (11) for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good morning folks!

Many brethren hold to a pretrib rapture as I use to as well. But after much deep study on the subject I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection/rapture does not take place until after the tribulation and posted all the scriptural evidence on a link on my website along with a simple timeline:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Is there any scripture I missed?

Good morning.

I see we missed it, it started in 1844.

We are in 'Judgement Day'.

Regards Tony
 

Moby

Member
So you didn't really come here for a debate, though this forum is Religious Debates.
That leaves a couple of other possible motives:
1. To teach the blind
2. To seek affirmation of your beliefs.

If you came here to teach the blind, why tell them to bugger off when they disagree with you?
Yea I came here to have a healthy debate but you have provided nothing from the truth to debate:

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.
 

Moby

Member
Good morning. The idea of the rapture wasn't even a thing until John Nelson Darby wrote a book about it in the 1800s.

Actually the word "rapture" came from the phrase "caught up" but they both mean the same thing:

G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)


1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 

Moby

Member
Greetings Moby. I am sorry but I don't like to click on links that lead outside websites I visit if I am unfamiliar with the person posting the link. So could not read your comment.

The Bible clearly teaches that God's 144,000 anointed Christian congregation will all be in heaven as immortal spirit creatures. It is quite clear that it happens after the tribulation that Jesus talked about. He says exactly:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."-Matthew 24:29-31.

So while the resurrection to heaven takes place "immediately after the tribulation of those days." it is not a rapture in the sense Christendom paints it to be. All the anointed have to die in order to receive their heavenly reward. And they are not taken to heaven in their physical bodies. They are recreated in immortal spirit bodies with divine nature and power like that of Jesus Christ their adopted brother, and Jehovah God their Father.

Now that your familiar with me please check out my link as you will thoroughly enjoy it:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
 
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