I find in Scripture that religious myths are lies, and lies are Not scriptural.
So, the deep meaning to humans who follow the teachings of 1st-century Christianity is that false symbolism is un-scriptural.
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Is Christmas Pagan?
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
I find in Scripture that religious myths are lies, and lies are Not scriptural.
So, the deep meaning to humans who follow the teachings of 1st-century Christianity is that false symbolism is un-scriptural.
Tell us what sport is in Scripture, rather we find Bible principles there.
Show us a Scripture that teaches that Satan started playing tennis ______________
Tennis is exercise and exercise can be beneficial - 1 Timothy 4:8
Colt
Well-Known Member
2 Timothy 2:5
5 An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
Good point ^ above ^ and as a person who wins a tennis match is ' crowned ' because he competes according to the rules.
The ' rules' about December 25th is that it is a lie, and is an un-truth about Jesus' birth.
If celebrated as a pagan or non-biblical holiday, then you are Not a hypocrite.
Those who celebrate the secular or pagan as trying to be Christian are the fake 'weed/tares' of Matthew 13:24-30
Colt
Well-Known Member
It’s the day we have always celebrated his birthday .
The 'we' people may have always celebrated Jesus' birthday, but Jesus never celebrated it, nor did his apostles.
Even after Jesus' death the apostles did Not set up any birthday celebration.
Jesus set up only one day to remember him and that was the annual day of Jesus' death - Luke 22:19
No one in 1st Century Christianity celebrated, and only 'non-Christians' are biblically named such as found at Genesis 40:20-22 and Matthew 14:6-10.
I find support for the biblical is found in the Bible's corresponding cross-reference verses and passages and Not in the application of other belief systems.
Colt
Well-Known Member
How do you know Jesus’ birthday wasn’t celebrated in his home? Or by the apostles? They didn’t write everything down.
They did Not have to write everything down because the Jews did Not celebrate birthdays.
Birthday customs come from non-biblical sources.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Scripture is myth. It is the mythology of the Christian religion. By your argument scripture lies.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Practicing my religion during this holiday season is definitely not trying to be Christian yet I respect Christians that do. This season can have meaning to all who choose to believe in a season of kindness, good will, celebrating the light returning, helping others, being thankful, tolerant, and bring joy to others. It is a celebration of life, all life on this earth. So I hope this season will carry on to the new year and beyond.
Augustus
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Thus you look at things on a case by case basis.
Some local goddess reappearing as a local saint of the same name with the same story in a relatively short space of time is very different from some Germanic goddess reappearing as a Greek bishop and later saint who was venerated since before the Germans were even Christianised across multiple religious and cultural divides.
Not in Christmas celebrations it doesn't, which is the point. Gift giving can't be claimed as 'pagan', only an attempt to appropriate an existing feast day or figure.
Other than the Frau Holle contention being both tenuous and speculative, St Nick doesn't resemble an attempt to appropriate another figure in the manner you suggest.
1. St Nicholas has a long, unbroken record of being an important saint associated with acts of charity and children (he actually reanimated some
)2. He is not a Northern European saint, but an Anatolian one that only reached Northern Europe late, via Italy. He was celebrated far outside the cultural reaches of Germanic paganism
3. Gift giving was associated with St Nicholas's day, 6 Dec, not Christmas
4. It moved to Christmas as venerating saints was "idolatrous Popery" and thus despised via the English figure of Father Christmas.
5. The hardcore Protestants who denigrated St Nicholas' day as "idolatrous Popery" would not have missed a chance to denigrate it as pagan had they had the remotest inkling it was pagan. They made up all kinds of pagan links after all, but not a peep on this one, despite being aware of myths involving Frau Holle.
6. The Dutch Sinterklaas didn't have reindeer
7. The reindeer and stuff were artistic representations in 19th C America and it is very much a stretch to assume these were 'pagan symbolism' without any evidence. Artistic licence can be just that: one person's imagination.
Augustus
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The degree to which such things were primarily "the Church" or were more about the people who had converted bringing their own culture with them is certainly open to debate.
People really overestimate the power of "the Church" (which was really more like lots of localised churches with their own distinct characteristics).
Most Anglophone pop-culture critiques of Christianity really do (inadvertently) resemble 16th C Protestant polemics against Catholicism. There's a definite link back to the past
Such claims rely purely on a post hoc ergo propter hoc logic though.
You can say druids found mistletoe magical and then 2000 years later it had a different symbolic meaning in folk-Christian context therefore they copied the druids and kissing under the mistletoe is pagan symbology, but this ignores the giant gap between the 2 cultures.
If it was attested to throughout the middle ages then up to the present then it is an easier claim to make, but when things appear in the 19th C, claiming ancient pagan origin is just speculation and has to overcome the problem that no one wrote about the tradition continuing.
Just about everything in our environment has some symbolic meaning in some culture or another, and just about every aspect of culture has some residue of something that went before.
Sometimes it's nice to think something links us back to our ancient ancestors, sometimes these links are true and other times it's just our wishful thinking and the true reason is far less interesting.
You are right that no doubt Christianity was influenced by pre-christian beliefs and practices. One of the reasons it was successful was its flexibility and ability to adapt to different cultural contexts.
The Christmas bits seem to be the wrong place to look for these things though as they seem contrived and don't seem to match the evidence whereas other things do.
cataway
Well-Known Member
ah, there is mention of birthday's celebrations in the bible . bad things happened.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Most Anglophone pop-culture critiques of Christianity really do (inadvertently) resemble 16th C Protestant polemics against Catholicism. There's a definite link back to the past
Remember there was also a revival of Classical history - Greek, Roman, and even interest in Celtic past including druids. It was not just protestant polemics. That is to simple of an explanation. The differences in culture that developed included different views on developing scientific ideas as well as the dramatic expansion of alternative ways to practice Christianity.
Except that there was a revival of interest in Druids in England by the 1700's along with knowledge of Norse mythology during the time the practice of kissing under the mistletoe developed in England. Of course there were no real Druids left by the 1700s but interest in their mythology was active.
Agree with you.
The point is sometimes not always. I am actually grateful that the did not eliminate all pre-Christian practices otherwise we would know even less that we do now.
Although the Central Church in Rome did not have the direct power at the local level, they represented the link to the justification of the power in the local level. They still had considerable control. The local leaders then used this connection to justify what they did.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
So given the current story of Santa Claus, Did St. Nicolas watch all children to see if they were good or bad as did Frau Holle. Did St. Nicolas then fly through the air delivering presents to good children and delivering coal and switches to those who were bad as did Frau Holle? Was St. Nicolas associated with snow/winter as Frau Holle?
So you do not think that known Germanic/Norse ideas including magical reindeer (deer recorded in Irish and Norse mythology including stories associated with King Author, Placing the location in area most associated with snow associated with Frau Holle - the north pole, Santa being helped by elves which are clear Germanic origin (unless you have some sources that St, Nicolas used elves to make the presents), Watching children throughout the year to see if they were naughty or nice (unless St. Nicolas recorded this is what he did). Rewarding the good and giving a negative reward to those who were bad?
Was the current Santa Claus that became popularized and intentional pagan plot? Of course not, I am just saying that current Celebrations retains symbolism that was not of Christian origin preserved and which much of the celebration can be appreciated by both Christians, pagans, and even atheist's alike. What truly resonates to people during this season in my opinion is kindness, good will, being thankful, tolerance, peace, giving, and love which can be appreciated to people of any kind and can share this season.
As far as 2020 goes: we can now view 2020 in the rear view mirror and put the pedal to the metal.
In Scripture the ' season of kindness ' is all year long.
Christmas is the 'season of excesses': Excessive spending, excessive eating and for some excessive drinking.... besides the Santa lie.
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Not for me. 2020 reminded me of the gift of family, the thankfulness of being alive, the beauty of the Santa myth, the thankfulness of writhers like Dickens who wrote the Christmas Carol. Thanking the Earth for giving us nutrition we can eat.
Now about the excessiveness of drinking that is a different story. I rather see it as enjoying Aberlour scotch 12 year old as a gift and relook at ourselves with a little humor. I do not excessive eat for I try only to take what I need and give back as much as I can and that symbolizes Christmas/Chrismoose/Yule/and solstice. I hope you have been blessed with love and kindness this holiday season and may we make it last all year.
Thank you for your good wishes - Numbers 6:24-26 for you.
I too am very fond of Scotch, but that does Not have to be at any particular time of year.
I remember a student at the end of the high school year baked a chocolate ' real scotch ' cake - the class including the teacher really enjoyed it
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your good wishes - Numbers 6:24-26 for you.
I too am very fond of Scotch, but that does Not have to be at any particular time of year.
I remember a student at the end of the high school year baked a chocolate ' real scotch ' cake - the class including the teacher really enjoyed it
Now see there is a Christmas magic or miracle when those of us with different views can find common ground. Thank you. Your post made me feel good.