The Greatness of Christ

loverofhumanity said:

Baha’u’llah states that Christ’s knowledge was identical to God’s knowledge.

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.

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With all due respect, I do not think that is what the passage above means. God has knowledge that the Manifestations of God do not possess, because God is All-Knowing.

Matthew 24:36 NIV
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,a]">[a] but only the Father.

What the Manifestations of God reveal is identical with the knowledge of God (what we can know about God), but that does not mean the Manifestations of God have all of God's knowledge or that they know everything about God. They are the Voice of God which is identical with the Will of God, but they are not God. The passage you cited needs to be read in context:

“O Salmán! The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a 50 proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 49-50

God is All-Knowing, so God knows His own Essence, but we know that the Manifestations of God do not know the Essence of God because of what Baha'u'llah wrote:

“So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind nor heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63

@loverofhumanity in light of @Vouthon 's post, Christianity was not "insignificant until backed by Constantine" I have changed my opinion from post #9. At 10% of the Roman empire's population, Christianity was signigicant before constantine, however the factors which lead to it's spread have been fairly neatly summarised in the other thread which states,

In a 260-year period, Christianity rapidly expanded from an obscure Messianic cult movement in the far edge of the Eastern Roman empire to an estimated size of 5–7.5 million members (Stark, 1996). Sociologist Rodney Stark attributes the success of Christianity to several key factors, including the highly prosocial response of Christians to two severe plagues that ravaged the empire between the 1st–5th centuries AD.

The Antonine Plague swept through Roman Empire from 165 to 180, resulting in the loss of an estimated quarter to a third of the entire empire’s population during the first plague (Boak, 1947; Russell, 1958; Gilliam, 1961; McNeill, 1976). By the end of the second plague, the Plague of Cyprian from 251 to 266, classical society was severely “disrupted and demoralized” (Stark, 1996, p. 74). During this time, Pagan leaders and government officials offered no assistance or care for the sick, while Christianity – still a minor but increasingly growing movement – did.

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According to my understanding then, in the abscence of a social state Christians offer of charity to the sick etc was what spread the message of Christianity, but this provides a mechanism for propogation of a message which is unnecessary in developed social countries.

Perhaps in a way this points to it not being the holy spirit which spread the message of Christ alone and unaided, because in modern social societies which provide universal healthcare etc the message of Christianity seems to be met with some resistance, suggesting to me that the holy spirit in the abscence of these mechanisms is somewhat impotent to win converts to a cause where these mechanisms are already provided by the state.

In other words take the strings attached charity away from Christianity and the holy spirit doesn't step in to win converts to Christianity.

Trailblazer said:

But how does that actually translate into something that we can isolate and understand?

Abdu'l-Baha said that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, so how does that actually affect the life of man?
Maybe this would be a good topic for another thread.

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I think that’s already been answered by Baha’u’llah in this passage...

By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

I think we are looking at things like the arts, sciences, inventions and basically human progress. Similarly to the advent of Baha’u’llah where international travel, the internet, worldwide communications and so on has made the world into one country snd added to the formation of bodies like the UN and EEU. Unity has been the spirit of this age, revolving around the invisible forces Baha’u’llah has released.

Each age had its own particular advances released by the Manifestation of that time. In Muhammad’s Dispensation Baghdad became the centre of learning in the world and through the Muslims and the Golden Age of Islam, Europe was greatly influenced. Abdul-Baha mentioned that soap was invented by a Muslim. Things like algebra affected the world. Ummah or community or nationhood came from Muhammad. The first constitution in the world to grant religious rights was the constitution of Medina. The first university in the world is said to be Muslim and the first one to issue degrees and diplomas.

I think these are the kinds of things Baha’u’llah is referring to.

With Christianity it was orphanages, schools, charities and much more that these require a separate section each to explore in depth.

It would be a great idea to go into the golden age of each Faith to explore how humanity benefitted from religion. It’s about time we delve into all the good religion has done.

Trailblazer said:

Only God is All-Knowing, Imo.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be All-Knowing, so if Baha'is interpret what He wrote to mean that then they are misinterpreting what He wrote.

Baha'u'llah said "This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing."
Baha'u'llah did not say "This thing is from Me, One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing."

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon Mycouch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

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Baha’u’llah never claimed that He was God but that His knowledge came from God.

Trailblazer said:

With all due respect, I do not think that is what the passage above means. God has knowledge that the Manifestations of God do not possess, because God is All-Knowing.

Matthew 24:36 NIV
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,a]">[a] but only the Father.

What the Manifestations of God reveal is identical with the knowledge of God (what we can know about God), but that does not mean the Manifestations of God have all of God's knowledge or that they know everything about God. They are the Voice of God which is identical with the Will of God, but they are not God. The passage you cited needs to be read in context:

“O Salmán! The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a 50 proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 49-50

God is All-Knowing, so God knows His own Essence, but we know that the Manifestations of God do not know the Essence of God because of what Baha'u'llah wrote:

“So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind nor heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63

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No one knows the essence God not even the Prophets but what I’m saying is that the Source of Their knowledge comes from an All Knowing Source. The knowledge that They each teach is an All Knowing knowledge not one learned from natural processes.

We can only obtain All-Knowing knowledge from the Manifestations as we cannot communicate directly with God but They can, so They are able to communicate All Knowing, infallible knowledge to us because They are Intermediaries.


Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed:”


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

loverofhumanity said:

No one knows the essence God not even the Prophets but what I’m saying is that the Source of Their knowledge comes from an All Knowing Source. The knowledge that They each teach is an All Knowing knowledge not one learned from natural processes.

We can only obtain All-Knowing knowledge from the Manifestations as we cannot communicate directly with God but They can, so They are able to communicate All Knowing, infallible knowledge to us because They are Intermediaries.

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Okay, thanks for clarifying that that was what you meant. That was a very good explanation of how God communicates through Intermediaries, and why.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Male. Defined in beasts by penis.
Male. Defined in humans by penis.

What male means. A he. A him. A his. A man.

Conscious self human reference.

Consciousness. Lots of self inference whilst thinking.

Whilst a self thinks you discuss beliefs about science. Which does not exist.

Truth.

God O males said by will is free. Meaning reactive planet owns natural will.

Will in science legal.

Wrote laws about what was caused when natural law. Stone. God. O earth. Was broken.

Claimed God O was once eternal.
Claimed God O went to hell as Satan. God by title did not exist then.

Title teaching O planet Satan went to hell.

Mother space. A womb saved body.

O God. Law stone. Satan died angel.

God angel of the seal.

Kept evil. The dead spirit in jail.

Relativity against satanism.

Our human teachings.

Male. Man. Copier. Science theism. I think to copy.

Cannot copy natural. You however gained artificial result.

Teaching to self.

Vision. History. Not yours. Man. Male.

Thesis.

Flooded earth after sun conversion.

Mountain peak above water.

Fission. Flat top mountain.

Law. Water and heavens. Planet submerged.

False theism. Self consciousness nearly bio water human life by percentage.

Image history. Ground not flooded owned sink holes. Owned activation first dust fission. Lay beneath flood.

Image vision first. Origin the image.
Mountain.

Are you a mountain science brother. Satanist theist?

No.

Image origin. A reaction.

Man self built machine. Did fission.

Life got sacrificed. Now image man male in clouds. Half ground water life support gone. To form increased cloud mass.

Ancient warning. I made holy ice melt.

Taught relativity.

Ice returns every end of year. Honour the stability of natural life. Laws stone Fu Sion. Not God Sion.

Basic teaching not correctly taught today.