sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It centers around the coming of Christ. Seems pretty dang “christion” to me...
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Is Christmas Pagan?
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
joelr
Well-Known Member
LOL, no evidence? Not logical? This is the consensus of every PhD biblical historian? There isn't a debate on this.
None of those concepts - afterlife, epic battle between good and evil, a firey end of times and all cult members get resurrected, a messiah to save the world, these were all Persian concepts and not part of Jewish mythology. In 5AD teh Persians took over Israel and allowed religious leaders who were exiled to return to the cities. Over the next few hundred years we see the Persian myths being added to Jewish myths.
At 4:04 Professor Stravakopolou explains it:
and the leading scholar on the Persian religion wrote this in her book:
"Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7] Christianity, Islam,[8] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[9]"
In the OT Satan was an agent of God, doing plagues and whatever dirty work (Job, Chronicles) Yahweh needed. After the Persian period the Zoroastrian concept of the devil was used which we now think of as the modern version of Satan:
From the Wiki on Satan.
"The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period
During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived."
This is basic scholarship and well known. Yes fundamentalist Christians cannot have their myths being taken from older sources so they have to invent apologetics to deny history.
The 2nd century apologetics just said that Satan went back and changed history to fool Christians. Now modern apologists tend to just deny it.
But outside of that fantasy revisionist world all historians agree these concepts were taken from the Persian Zoroastrian religion.
Also the Persian Emissary to the Jews was well liked and was favorable to them so it's believed this helped the Israelites to be more open to this religion.
I don't know what you are talking about?
cataway
Well-Known Member
a lot of people will acknowledge that Jesus was a person . that does not make them Christians. question may be, is there a fine line . my self i know a great number of people that are Christion. and perhaps even more that dare call them selves Christians that would run ya into the ditch just to get your spot .
Constantin had a part in the start of the Christmas beginnings some of it adopted from Roman festivals , like the time of year it was celebrated . which by the way was not when Jesus was born.
according to Jesus the only way to to pay him credence was to remember his death.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Blah blah blah <yawn >
That hardly addresses my point.
Augustus
…
A Christmas/winter solstice miracle, someone changed their mind on RF
While the church was indeed often intolerant, most of the stuff you attribute to it was actually the result of centuries of gradual decline. More violent actions were mostly the result of 'secular' local leaders enforcing their power on their own and conquered people (and not all of these leaders were Catholic, many were Arian and it was conceivable that Arianism could have become dominant in Europe at one point).
When local leaders converted, their underlings were expected to follow suit and a refusal to do so was 'treasonous', ditto conquered people. A bit like how Christians were persecuted for their refusal to sacrifice to the Emperor.
While it is certainly fair enough to note the intolerant aspects of the church, things were a lot more decentralised and outwith their direct control, although the had influence with some factions yes, especially in the crusading times
Merry Winter Solstice/Saturnalia/Christmas/etc. to you and yours, hope you a a great holiday season
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
A Christmas/winter solstice miracle, someone changed their mind on RF
While the church was indeed often intolerant, most of the stuff you attribute to it was actually the result of centuries of gradual decline. More violent actions were mostly the result of 'secular' local leaders enforcing their power on their own and conquered people (and not all of these leaders were Catholic, many were Arian and it was conceivable that Arianism could have become dominant in Europe at one point).
When local leaders converted, their underlings were expected to follow suit and a refusal to do so was 'treasonous', ditto conquered people. A bit like how Christians were persecuted for their refusal to sacrifice to the Emperor.
While it is certainly fair enough to note the intolerant aspects of the church, things were a lot more decentralised and outwith their direct control, although the had influence with some factions yes, especially in the crusading times
Merry Winter Solstice/Saturnalia/Christmas/etc. to you and yours, hope you a a great holiday season
Thank you. Same to you and your family.
(Just FYI: I have a copyright on "<yawn>".)
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
You forgot to mention, however, that franchise opportunities exist in select locations.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
US law requires you to display the recognized copyright symbol whenever said material is written.
Yes, and because there will be the loss of revenue ( Not loss of life ) is why earth's merchants will mourn the loss of 'Christmas' profit$$$$$$$$
- Revelation 18:11-17
Of course it is 'fun'. If Christmas meant sticking yourself with pins up and down your arms how many would celebrate it __________
Lots of things can be ' fun ' that are illegal, immoral, way too fattening, but that does Not make them as being righteous.
Just being ' fun' is Not a criteria for being right, upright, wholesome or scriptural.
'Fun' does Not necessarily equate to being ' true ' as based on scriptural truth .
- Phillippians 4:8
Colt
Well-Known Member
Tennis isn't scriptural, but that's fun to. Celebrating the birth of Jesus is a great way for even non believers to think about the story.
cataway
Well-Known Member
yes, even as the bible has shown . it is happening
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I don't celebrate it as a pagan holiday. I celebrate it as a Christian holiday.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I don't give a **** about saturnalia.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe what goes around comes around.
What a coincidence! I share the same sentiment about your opinion on Saturnalia!
It’s like we’re twins!!
Augustus
…
Just as well seeing as it has nothing to do with Christmas, is on a different date, appears on the same historical calendars as Christmas on different dates, and linking it to Christmas is simply regurgitating the errors of 17th C Protestant fundamentalists.
Which is why it is funny when "rationalists" uncritically repeat it
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Just as I do not celebrate this holiday season as a Christian holiday but as a pagan Holiday with rich pagan symbolism. The nice thing is we can celebrate this special holiday different ways and get rich meaning to our lives.
cataway
Well-Known Member
if you polish a turd you still have a turd. even if you put a ribbon on it ,and shiny sprinkles, its still a turd .