Is Christmas Pagan?

URAVIP2ME · Dec 20, 2020

oldbadger said:
You are thinking of Christmas as a date, which is understandable.
But Pagan Christmas was at a time, a time exactly decided by the first signs of a return of the winter sun. So, about 4 days after mid winter solstice.
And, amazingly, that's when Christians held their feast as well..... a reversal in the old pagan ways, just like Christianity reversed in to places where folks gathered, or what they believed. And that happens to be 25th December.......

I find there is Nothing in 1st-century Christianity ( Bible record ) that says: ' that's when Christians held their feast as well...'
Jesus nor his followers never held such feast or feasting.
Before people became Christians they did such things, and were warned about returning back to such things - Galatians 4:8-11
Jesus' apostles never celebrated Jesus birthday.
The only instruction Jesus gave was to hold a memorial of his anniversary ' day of death ' the Spring month of Nisan, the 14th day - Luke 22:19
With the death of the apostles an apostasy set in, the genuine 'wheat' Christians would be growing together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians.
Grow together until the Harvest Time or our time frame - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; Matthew 13:24-30

IndigoChild5559 · Dec 20, 2020

Jayhawker Soule said:
You may be misreading the Latin.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: 'after this, therefore because of this') is an informal fallacy that states: "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X." It is often shortened simply to post hoc fallacy.
- source

so ...

Christmas came after {insert presumed pagan festival here], therefore Christmas came because of [reinsert here].

Thanksgiving came after Chanukah, therefore Thanksgiving came because of Chanukah

Oh, I see. You were stating is as a FALLACY.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 20, 2020

oldbadger said:
Several important festivals.......

<yawn>
Laudable scholarship indeed.
</yawn>

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 20, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
Oh, I see. You were stating is as a FALLACY.

Or simply blather.- a withered attempt to revitalize paganism and invest it with a coherence and conformity that it never had.

oldbadger · Dec 20, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
I find there is Nothing in 1st-century Christianity ( Bible record ) that says: ' that's when Christians held their feast as well...'

I expect not. After all, they hadn't really got started in Britain until, what, the third century?

Jesus nor his followers never held such feast or feasting.

If only Paul had given a damn about what Jesus did, eh/ I don't think he mentioned a single action or event in the life of Jesus apart from in the last week, and not much then.
Christianity doesn't really have much of Jesus the man in it.
What's next?

Before people became Christians they did such things, and were warned about returning back to such things - Galatians 4:8-11

Of course they did! And then, later on, Christians started using those dates. They even had to produce items like a female Goddess, yes?

Jesus' apostles never celebrated Jesus birthday.

Of course they didn't, they had no idea of when even if it mattered.

The only instruction Jesus gave was to hold a memorial of his anniversary ' day of death ' the Spring month of Nisan, the 14th day - Luke 22:19

And I doubt Luke had any idea about any such real action of Jesus. Exactly when did Jesus tell 'em all this? It's a lovely story but Luke was never there.

With the death of the apostles an apostasy set in, the genuine 'wheat' Christians would be growing together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians.
Grow together until the Harvest Time or our time frame - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; Matthew 13:24-30

And there you have it. After the deaths of the true disciples and some Apostles Christianity went other ways.
And it still hadn't come to Britain where the Ancient Britons where watching their Sun and Moon, living by their 13 months and Solstices. Strange that Christianity just happened to fit over those dates, fit over their places of worship, incorporate some of their ways, eh?

Which of course what we are telling about.

oldbadger · Dec 20, 2020

Jayhawker Soule said:
<yawn>
Laudable scholarship indeed.
</yawn>

Ha ha!
Waving the old scholarship flags.....still.... are we?
Which scholar suits your taste today? And whom shall you discard today?

I used to love the old flag waving, back in the day on RF. Some folks would put their case by waving some scholar flags, and another group would dismiss same claims by waving another group of scholar flags. Like Expert Witnesses giving evidence for each side, and so many of those total imposts.

It really is time to start being your own investigator, rather than clinging to the ideas of your chosen scholars, that way you might have a better idea of what happened, say, in Britain, long ago.

Go back to sleep, eh?

capumetu · Dec 21, 2020

Wild Fox said:
I am looking forward to the evidence that you have with great anticipation. In fact I would be happy to hear the evidence that the birth of Jesus on December 25 was celebrated in the first 25 years of his death since that is within a time frame that people who knew Jesus might have been aware of his actual date of birth. Please feel free to give me your references. I am happy to know that they exist and looking forward to them.

I don't want to step on toes, but I will be glad to give my 2 cents worth if you want sir

Bear Wild · Dec 21, 2020

Augustus said:
Yes, it's been noted multiple times in this thread.

See:

So you think the Roman Christian Church was all powerful in the 2nd/3rd C when this happened in the pagan Roman Empire that was persecuting the Christians (and many other religious minorities?)?

You are correct and I agree with you on this. I was too focused on the later after the Christian Church unified with the the Ruling Roman government and military. So I just want to say your evidence and arguments were excellent and you actually made me think about why this subject. I stand corrected Christmas is indeed not Pagan.

I thought about why the subject bothers me while debating with you and realized I have been sad and angry that the later intolerance that the Christian church when it dominated Europe eliminated so much of the traditions of so many other religions and would not allow people to maintain a different belief so for me and others that do not follow the Christian religion to were we have to create or reconstruct so much.

So it is time to let that go and enjoy the fact that the Christians who celebrate Christmas and those of us that celebrate the Winter solstice time share many symbols and rituals as well as meaning to this season. So thank you for your insight, It made me rethink things and hope we can celebrate religious tolerance now. Christian, pagan, secular or any other religion that wants to find meaning in this season.

Bear Wild · Dec 21, 2020

.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Seriously? So Chanukah is because of Thanksgiving? Makes no sense.

Click to expand...

Ok, it pains me to say your are correct but rethought about my objections and believe I have been seeing it from the wrong way. That does not mean I always agree with you however but I always appreciate your knowledge. Religions can share symbols, dates and find similar meanings to this season and should appreciate this fact.

By the way as a side note I have just been reading more on higher order theory of emotional consciousness and reading some of J. LeDoux's work that I think you introduced me to (at least I think it was you). Still a fan of Jack Panksepp though. But that is a different topic.

Thanks for making me think from different viewpoints. .

amorphous_constellation · Dec 21, 2020

I still don't concede, but will come back with better arguments next year. I think we established that the problem is complicated, and so it's kind of hard to see who gets the points

amorphous_constellation · Dec 21, 2020

Augustus said:
Remember, these dates go back to when the same Christians who were deviously “rebranding paganism” were literally dying for their refusal to carry out basic "pagan" rituals.

Or you know, converting. What do you make of the confession of st. patrick, he literally compares Jesus to the sun ?

URAVIP2ME · Dec 21, 2020

ideogenous_mover said:
Or you know, converting. What do you make of the confession of st. patrick, he literally compares Jesus to the sun ?

I find at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that ' there is going to be' a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.
Thus, during Resurrection Day ( meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years ) Patrick will be resurrected.
Then, Patrick will have plenty of opportunity to have accurate knowledge of Scripture and just who Jesus is.

Colt · Dec 22, 2020

Riders said:
Is Christmas Pagan itś that time of the year again. Christmas looks different this year with the covid and all.I heard on the news Internet shopping is way up, more going to the internet to buy then in person.

Yes, its Pagan in origin but lots of fun. Even Atheist and agnostics celebrate it.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 22, 2020

cOLTER said:
Yes, its Pagan in origin but lots of fun. Even Atheist and agnostics celebrate it.

You seem to confuse flippancy with evidence.

Colt · Dec 22, 2020

Jayhawker Soule said:
You seem to confuse flippancy with evidence.

Well for one, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. The Roman holidays associated with Saturnalia is the source of Christmas traditions. When Rome was converted to Christianity the two holiday traditions merged together.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 22, 2020

cOLTER said:
Well for one, ...

(And then you proceed to make three points. This is not a good start.

cOLTER said:
..., Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25.

I suspect not. At issue, however, is what was inferred and when.

cOLTER said:
The Roman holidays associated with Saturnalia is the source of Christmas traditions.

Which Roman holidays (plural)? Beginning when? Documented where?
Which Christmas traditions? Beginning when? Documented where?

cOLTER said:
When Rome was converted to Christianity the two holiday traditions merged together.

So, having just claimed pagan source for Christmas traditions you no claim that pagan traditions and Christmas traditions merged together.

You're not very good at this stuff. Perhaps you'd like to try again.

Augustus · Dec 22, 2020

ideogenous_mover said:
Or you know, converting. What do you make of the confession of st. patrick, he literally compares Jesus to the sun ?

He wasn't the only one either. The question is were they doing this for their own reasons, or to 'plagiarise' some pagan sun god.

It's pretty clear they were doing it for their own reasons:

"But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves." Malachi 4:2

Colt · Dec 22, 2020

Jayhawker Soule said:
(And then you proceed to make three points. This is not a good start.

I suspect not. At issue, however, is what was inferred and when.

Which Roman holidays (plural)? Beginning when? Documented where?
Which Christmas traditions? Beginning when? Documented where?

So, having just claimed pagan source for Christmas traditions you no claim that pagan traditions and Christmas traditions merged together.

You're not very good at this stuff. Perhaps you'd like to try again.

You can do your own research concerning the Roman holidays and the adoption of Christianity by the Romans. You can condescend to yourself while doing it.

amorphous_constellation · Dec 22, 2020

Augustus said:
He wasn't the only one either. The question is were they doing this for their own reasons, or to 'plagiarise' some pagan sun god.

"20. Now on that same night, when I was sleeping, Satan assailed me mightily, in such sort as I shall remember as long as I am in this body. And he fell upon me as it were a huge rock, and I had no power over my limbs. But whence did it occur to me — to my ignorant mind — to call upon Helias? And on this I saw the sun rise in the heaven, and while I was shouting “Helias” with all my might, lo, the splendour of that sun fell upon me, and straightway shook all weight from off me. And I believe that I was helped by Christ my Lord, and that his Spirit was even then calling aloud on my behalf."

Hull, Eleanor, editor. St. Patrick, His Writings and Life. Translated by Newport J.D. White D.D, London, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; New York, Macmillan, 1920, pp. 37–38.

"60. For that sun which we behold, by the command of God rises daily for our sakes ; but it will never reign, nor will its splendour endure; but all those who worship it shall — wretched men — come badly to punishment. We, on the other hand, who believe in and worship the true sun, Christ — who will never perish, nor will any one who doeth his will; but he will abide for ever, as Christ will abide for ever who reigneth with God the Father Almighty and with the Holy Spirit, before the worlds, and now, and for ever and ever. Amen."

Hull, Eleanor, editor. St. Patrick, His Writings and Life. Translated by Newport J.D. White D.D, London, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; New York, Macmillan, 1920, p. 50.

---

It seems quite obvious here, that he is trying to facilitate a transition away from the worship of natural forces, like the sun. Thus, by overlaying the sun as much as possible with Christ, he strives here to supplant that force. This would surely be pertinent to people who were astrologically attuned, to those people he was trying to convert. When Helias was doing something interesting, that is exactly the moment when you would want to redirect attention. So therefore, when something like a solstice would come, these are the sorts of arguments that would make for effective Christian proselytizing

And so I would say that this would connect back to the Christmas issue as well , the time when the sun was starting to shine again

sojourner · Dec 22, 2020

Riders said:
Is Christmas Pagan itś that time of the year again. Christmas looks different this year with the covid and all.I heard on the news Internet shoppping is way up,more going to the internet to buy then in person.

No. Christmas is Christian. Saturnalia is pagan.

Is Christmas Pagan?

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