Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

firedragon · Dec 21, 2020

thomas t said:
Recently I ran into a statement insinuating that Adolf Hitler was a Christian... quoted by my discussion partner.

As a Catholic, do you see him as a Christian?

Here on RF, one of your brothers once said, the Catholic Church was blameless.

Before you say it's obvious that he wasn't a Christian, consider that he was baptized into the Catholic Church and never was excummunicated. He never left the Catholic Church.
---------------------
While the Catholic Church does excommunicate people, for instance for what they call false teaching, they did not excommunicate Hitler and his servants.

As blameless as the Catholic church portrays itself to be, they did not find a reason to regret not having kicked him out. Until today. This is at least to the best of my knowledge.

The pope knew what was going on, that there was a holocaust. https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/

edited for clarity

This kind of dilemma can never ever be answered because you have to be God to know what was inside Hitlers mind.

He claimed to be Christian, and you say he was a Christian. But maybe he was an atheist who just pretended to be Christian. Who would know? Maybe he was something else. Like a "Hitlerism" where he believed he was Gods manifestation on earth and was going to announce that after he becomes emperor of the world. How would you know?

When people themselves lie and pretend, how in the world could you honestly answer this question?

One thing should be, even if he is an honest to God Christian, that cannot have anything to do with Christianity.

As in a democratic person has nothing to do with democracy in repercussion.

9-10ths_Penguin · Dec 21, 2020

metis said:
Absolutely false as the pope and many others within the Church spoke out against it, but typically in rather cloaked terms. Remember that the Church itself was highly vulnerable.

I'm sure that the Vatican was also concerned with not doing anything to alienate one of its close allies: Mussolini.

Cooky · Dec 21, 2020

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I'm sure that the Vatican was also concerned with not doing anything to alienate one of its close allies: Mussolini.

The Church doesn't alienate, anyone... Ever... People only alienate themselves.

...The Church is open and available to all sinners, even the excommunicated.

ecco · Dec 21, 2020

wellwisher said:
That is similar to calling any atheist, who had any childhood training in religion, a default religious person. According to atheist logic, is not about who one chooses to be as an adult, but what one was told to do as a child. That programming is so profound it cannot be undone.

On what do you base your assertion that "According to atheist logic...what one was told to do as a child. That programming is so profound it cannot be undone."?

I don't know of any atheist who would make such a silly comment. Many atheists were indoctrinated to various degrees as children., Perhaps one of the most famous would be Marjoe Gortner.

Your strawman is a massive fail. Therefore the remainder of your post is moot.

viole · Dec 21, 2020

Cooky said:
No, her mother was excommunicated for arranging the abortion. Not the 9 year old... It's in your own article.

Ok, excommunicating a woman for organising the abortion for her 9 years old raped girl, is so much better. For a moment I thought that those who say Catholicism is the second most evil religion in the world might have a point.

But to excommunicate the mother is much more humane than excommunicating the girl. I mean, how immoral to let a 9 years old raped girl to abort. Point taken.

Ciao

- viole

ecco · Dec 21, 2020

Musing Bassist said:
Whether Hitler personally considered himself a Christian is doubtful as it has been known for a long time that he held viciously anti-religious views.

What viciously anti-religious views?
Know by whom?
You really need to be more specific and present some evidence to support your views.

For example, Hitler was greatly influenced by Anti-Semite Martin Luther...

https://www.iwu.edu/history/constructingthepastvol9/Paras.pdf
“The Beginning of My Political Activity” from Mein Kampf, Hitler’s infamous book, he discussed the “great warriors” in this world, who: though not understood by the present, are nevertheless prepared to carry the fight for their ideas and ideals to their end…to them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther.

Musing Bassist said:
Telling people in 1930's Germany that you plan on eventually stamping out Christianity from the country would have been politically suicidal.

If it was true, which it wasn't.

https://www.iwu.edu/history/constructingthepastvol9/Paras.pdf
In 1941, Hitler declared his intent to reform the Evangelical Church and coordinate it with the state. On November 13th, a big rally was held in support of this idea. The movement’s leader, Reinhardt Krause, delivered a speech which dealt with “the tasks of a Reich Church in the Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther.” Lutherans throughout Germany embraced this idea,

Musing Bassist said:
And even if Hitler - in some bizarre way - considered himself a Catholic, there's nothing in Catholic teaching that could remotely justify the systematic murder of a people group.

Not necessarily Catholic, but certainly Christian.

Musing Bassist said:
From what I understand, Hitler's personal hatred for the Jews (in large part) stems from his belief that they were at fault for Germany's defeat in WWI.

Read up on Hitler's vies of Martin Luther.

thomas t · Dec 21, 2020

exchemist said:
The instruction was given and as there is no evidence it was not obeyed

exchemist said:
It's all in that Wiki article.

exchemist said:
So there is every reason to suppose that the instruction would have been obeyed at parish level.

that's ridiculous. There never has been an instruction like this, I provided the evidence in #129. From a church historian, that I quoted from a church newspaper.
You have nothing except a flawed Wiki article.

thomas t · Dec 21, 2020

firedragon said:
He claimed to be Christian, and you say he was a Christian.

no, I say he was a Catholic. I'm not saying that everyone baptised into the Catholic church is a Christian.
Christian, for me, is something concerning your belief in your heart.

Since he was Catholic, I'm asking the Catholics what they think about the matter.

9-10ths_Penguin · Dec 21, 2020

thomas t said:
no, I say he was a Catholic. I'm not saying that everyone baptised into the Catholic church is a Christian.

But that's the Catholic position.

They don't just say that anyone baptized into the Catholic Church is Catholic; they say that anyone - Catholic or not - who has been validly baptized by anyone - Catholic or not - is a Christian.

Christian, for me, is something concerning your belief in your heart.

That's all fine, but that's not the Catholic view you've been talking about.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, someone baptized by, say, a Lutheran minister into the Lutheran Church is a Christian, even if they never set foot in a Catholic Church.

Subduction Zone · Dec 21, 2020

thomas t said:
no, I say he was a Catholic. I'm not saying that everyone baptised into the Catholic church is a Christian.
Christian, for me, is something concerning your belief in your heart.

Since he was Catholic, I'm asking the Catholics what they think about the matter.

Why pick on the Catholics? It is pretty clear that though he was a Christian he was not the same sort of Christian that almost any modern Christian wants to be associated with.

metis · Dec 21, 2020

Subduction Zone said:
The support for Hitler does appear to have been stronger than that of Catholics. Any religious leader was a bit in between a rock and a hard place. Opposing Hitler put their lives at risk. Supporting him put their soul at risk.

Yes, and I'm sure being in that position would make standing up to them very hard, especially since they wouldn't just go after you.

I used to bring into my Holocaust unit a woman who's "sin" was that her father wouldn't comply with the Hitler Youth movement as he was the head of a soccer league, thus they ended up in a concentration camp. Her father had to wear a sign on his chest that said "Nein", and at one point, while she was holding his hand, a soldier came up to him, called him a "swine", and shot him in the head.

metis · Dec 21, 2020

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I'm sure that the Vatican was also concerned with not doing anything to alienate one of its close allies: Mussolini.

The irony is that they "played" each other. Mussolini wanted confirmation from the Church for public support while pretending that he was a "defender of the faith" (he actually was an atheist), while the Church didn't want him to go after them-- sortofa "unholy alliance". A similar unholy pact also occurred between the NAZI's and the Church for the same reason. I think you know my position on both because of my oft posted quote from Gandhi: "To cooperate with evil is evil".

BTW, after the Final Solution, the next step was that the NAZI's intended to eliminate the CC from Europe, thus replacing it with a Nordic religion, and Himmler was in charge of that if my memory is correct, and he also was a "former" Catholic.

Cooky · Dec 21, 2020

thomas t said:
no, I say he was a Catholic. I'm not saying that everyone baptised into the Catholic church is a Christian.
Christian, for me, is something concerning your belief in your heart.

Since he was Catholic, I'm asking the Catholics what they think about the matter.

interesting comment...

...Would you say also, that not everyone Baptized Christian is Christian..?

Subduction Zone · Dec 21, 2020

metis said:
The irony is that they "played" each other. Mussolini wanted confirmation from the Church for public support while pretending that he was a "defender of the faith" (he actually was an atheist), while the Church didn't want him to go after them-- sortofa "unholy alliance". A similar unholy pact also occurred between the NAZI's and the Church for the same reason. I think you know my position on both because of my oft posted quote from Gandhi: "To cooperate with evil is evil".

BTW, after the Final Solution, the next step was that the NAZI's intended to eliminate the CC from Europe, thus replacing it with a Nordic religion, and Himmler was in charge of that if my memory is correct, and he also was a "former" Catholic.

What is odd is that Mussolini is easily shown to be an atheist, and yet no one ever uses him as an example. Do you have a source for your claims about "after the final solution"?

ecco · Dec 21, 2020

Subduction Zone said:
Why pick on the Catholics? It is pretty clear that though he was a Christian he was not the same sort of Christian that almost any modern Christian wants to be associated with.

I don't buy that. 72+ million modern American Christians wanted/want to be associated with a narcissistic pathological liar posing as a Christian who insists he should remain in office.

ecco · Dec 21, 2020

metis said:
BTW, after the Final Solution, the next step was that the NAZI's intended to eliminate the CC from Europe, thus replacing it with a Nordic religion, and Himmler was in charge of that if my memory is correct, and he also was a "former" Catholic.

If true, that's even more evidence that he was not an atheist.

URAVIP2ME · Dec 21, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
....................
But of course, it's always a mistake to suppose that the church doesn't also engage in political considerations -- they do, because like it or not, they are part of this world, not the next (yet).

The political ' kings ' are in bed, so to speak, with the false religious ' queen ' - Revelation 17:1-2; Revelation 18:7.
That 'queen' sits on many waters ( people ) - Revelation 17:15
She thinks she will never see mourning nor sorrow.
So, it will be quite a shock when the kings (political) surprisingly turn on her ( the corrupted religious world )
This coming future begins with the time of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security...." ,
but that rosy-looking peace will prove to be the thorny precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9
Jesus, as King of God's kingdom, then will be the one who will be part of the next world, the 'righteous new world' as described for us at Isaiah 35th chapter.

loverofhumanity · Dec 21, 2020

thomas t said:
Recently I ran into a statement insinuating that Adolf Hitler was a Christian... quoted by my discussion partner.

As a Catholic, do you see him as a Christian?

Here on RF, one of your brothers once said, the Catholic Church was blameless.

Before you say it's obvious that he wasn't a Christian, consider that he was baptized into the Catholic Church and never was excummunicated. He never left the Catholic Church.
---------------------
While the Catholic Church does excommunicate people, for instance for what they call false teaching, they did not excommunicate Hitler and his servants.

As blameless as the Catholic church portrays itself to be, they did not find a reason to regret not having kicked him out. Until today. This is at least to the best of my knowledge.

The pope knew what was going on, that there was a holocaust. https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/

edited for clarity

Popes are just ordinary people not infallible, so they are susceptible to corruption just like anyone else.

thomas t · Dec 22, 2020

Subduction Zone said:
Why pick on the Catholics? It is pretty clear that though he was a Christian he was not the same sort of Christian that almost any modern Christian wants to be associated with.

because Hitler was a member of the Catholic church.

Cooky said:
...Would you say also, that not everyone Baptized Christian is Christian..?

If someone does not believe in his heart, he is not a Christian, regardless of what denomination that was that gave him the baptism.
Even if the official Catholic position is that the ones baptised into Catholicism are Christians.... I don't support their view.
It's faith that counts always.

night912 · Dec 22, 2020

thomas t said:
Recently I ran into a statement insinuating that Adolf Hitler was a Christian... quoted by my discussion partner.

As a Catholic, do you see him as a Christian?

Here on RF, one of your brothers once said, the Catholic Church was blameless.

Before you say it's obvious that he wasn't a Christian, consider that he was baptized into the Catholic Church and never was excummunicated. He never left the Catholic Church.
---------------------
While the Catholic Church does excommunicate people, for instance for what they call false teaching, they did not excommunicate Hitler and his servants.

As blameless as the Catholic church portrays itself to be, they did not find a reason to regret not having kicked him out. Until today. This is at least to the best of my knowledge.

The pope knew what was going on, that there was a holocaust. https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/29/vatican-pope-pius-records-holocaust/

edited for clarity

Why does it matter?

Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

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