Christianity vs Baha'i

CG Didymus · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
Saying that there are two Messiahs sounds Jewish.

From what I hear Christians and Baha'is are wrong. Jews have The Messiah coming once and doing what the Bible says he'll do. Christians have one Messiah that comes twice and Baha'is have Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and finally the main Messiah, Baha'u'llah coming. Both of you cherry pick the Jewish Bible to make your beliefs fit.

TransmutingSoul · Dec 15, 2020

CG Didymus said:
And what about the Baha'i list of "prophecies" fulfilled?

Either Baha'u'llah is that Image, or He is not. The claims are that He is the One foretold in all the Holy Books.

We do not have to interpret the passages, we can check and see if the life of Baha'u'llah did fulfilled them. If he did not, then it would be us making him God in our image.

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
What's the difference between what body Jesus returns in?

Why does it need to be the same body of Jesus returning, that is the hundred-dollar question.
Why isn't the spirit of Jesus good enough?

I already know the answer, because Christians are emotionally attached to the Jesus who was depicted in the NT, so they cannot face the fact that Jesus ascended to heaven and there He will stay, just like everyone else who dies..

Skywalker · Dec 15, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Why does it need to be the same body of Jesus returning, that is the hundred-dollar question.
Why isn't the spirit of Jesus good enough?

I already know the answer, because Christians are emotionally attached to the Jesus who was depicted in the NT, so they cannot face the fact that Jesus ascended to heaven and there He will stay, just like everyone else who dies..

I agree with you. What is the difference? How are Christians emotionally attached to the New Testament Jesus? Jesus returning is a miracle just like Jesus ascending to heaven. That is why I don't agree with the spirit of Jesus opinion.

Trailblazer · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
Saying that there are two Messiahs sounds Jewish.

No, the Jews believe there will only be one Messiah, just like the Christians.

Skywalker · Dec 15, 2020

CG Didymus said:
From from I hear Christians and Baha'is are wrong. Jews have The Messiah coming once and doing what the Bible says he'll do. Christians have one Messiah that comes twice and Baha'is have Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and finally the main Messiah, Baha'u'llah coming. Both of you cherry pick the Jewish Bible to make your beliefs fit.

Isaiah 7:14 and 9: 6-7 and Zechariah 14:4 sound like they are referring to two individuals.

Skywalker · Dec 15, 2020

Trailblazer said:
No, the Jews believe there will only be one Messiah, just like the Christians.

Some Old Testament writings about the Messiah sound like they are talking about two individuals. That is why I believe that Jesus will return and what he told Pilate has nothing to do with the second coming.

Trailblazer · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
I agree with you. What is the difference? How are Christians emotionally attached to the New Testament Jesus? Jesus returning is a miracle just like Jesus ascending to heaven. That is why I don't agree with the spirit of Jesus opinion.

Christians are attached to the idea of the same Jesus they know and love from the NT returning. That is the primary reason Christians reject Baha'u'llah, because He was a different man and not the man they want. So Christians ignore all the evidence of the fulfilled prophecies and keep waiting for Jesus, but since the prophecies have already been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, that means Jesus cannot come and fulfill them again. This is logic 101 stuff but logic goes right out the window when people operate out of emotions.

Jesus ascending to heaven was not a miracle, because His body did not ascend, His soul ascended. That is what happens to everyone who dies, their soul ascends to heaven. But the difference between the Manifestations of God like Jesus and Baha'u'llah and ordinary humans is that only the Manifestations of God existed in heaven with God before they were born into this world from their mothers. All ordinary humans come into existence at the moment of conception, when our soul becomes associated with our body. We never existed before that.

“The term “heaven” denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. Upon their thrones is written: “Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing;” and on their seats is inscribed: “Verily, His ways differ every day.” 27 They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: “coming in the clouds of heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 67

Trailblazer · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
Isaiah 7:14 and 9: 6-7 and Zechariah 14:4 sound like they are referring to two individuals.

Good catch. Isaiah 7:14 is referring to Jesus whereas Isiah 9: 6-7 and Zechariah 14:4 are referring to Baha'u'llah.

Skywalker · Dec 15, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Christians are attached to the idea of the same Jesus they know and love from the NT returning. That is the primary reason Christians reject Baha'u'llah, because He was a different man and not the man they want. So Christians ignore all the evidence of the fulfilled prophecies and keep waiting for Jesus, but since the prophecies have already been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, that means Jesus cannot come and fulfill them again. This is logic 101 stuff but logic goes right out the window when people operate out of emotions.

Jesus ascending to heaven was not a miracle, because His body did not ascend, His soul ascended. That is what happens to everyone who dies, their soul ascends to heaven. But the difference between the Manifestations of God like Jesus and Baha'u'llah and ordinary humans is that only the Manifestations of God existed in heaven with God before they were born into this world from their mothers. All ordinary humans come into existence at the moment of conception, when our soul becomes associated with our body. We never existed before that.

“The term “heaven” denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. Upon their thrones is written: “Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing;” and on their seats is inscribed: “Verily, His ways differ every day.” 27 They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: “coming in the clouds of heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 67

I don't think Christians believe in the second coming of Jesus because of nostalgia. Christians reject Baha'u'llah because there doesn't need to be another Messiah. The Bible verses of the second coming of the Messiah don't mention 1844. I believe Jesus went to heaven like Elijah and Enoch did. Jesus existed before He was born. Daniel and Moses and the parents of Samson saw Jesus.

Trailblazer · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
Some Old Testament writings about the Messiah sound like they are talking about two individuals. That is why I believe that Jesus will return

That makes no sense. If there were two individuals then Jesus was the first individual and there is a second individual who will come later; so it won't be Jesus returning, it will be another individual.

TransmutingSoul · Dec 15, 2020

Skywalker said:
I don't think Jesus teaching us how to live has to do with why He will come again. What worldly authority did Jesus give to man? Jesus gave his apostles the ability to do miracles to show he was God and He will give people authority to rule over the Millennium but other than that Jesus didn't give authority to man. The kingdom of God is primarily spiritual.

Jesus said the Church would be built upon the understanding that Jesus was the Christ.

Jesus thus gave Peter's explanation Authority to guide mankind in the dispensation of Christianity, and that the progression and guidance would be via that line of thought. It became the Catholic line.

Unfortunately doctrine crept in earlier than it should have, as men could not decide upon who Christ was and instead of agreeing to disagree, in a love of a lasting unity, dominate men wanted power and the rest is history.

Regards Tony

Skywalker · Dec 15, 2020

Trailblazer said:
That makes no sense. If there were two individuals then Jesus was the first individual and there is a second individual who will come later; so it won't be Jesus returning, it will be another individual.

The verses don't mention two individuals they sound like it. There's a difference between looking manly and someone's appearence revealing that they are a man.

CG Didymus · Dec 15, 2020

InvestigateTruth said:
In the year 1844. Then again in 1863.

And what about Muhammad? No 621? And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus comes in the clouds in 1844 or 1863?
All of these Baha'is use to get to 1844. And each one Baha'is say started in 621AD the year of the Hegira.

Rev 11:2...outer court (of the Temple)... given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
When is the outer court given to the Gentiles and what happens after 42 months?

3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days...
When do they start prophesying?

7 the beast overpowers and kills them. 8 Their bodies lie in the street... 9 For three and a half days... 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them.
They prophesy 1260 then are killed. What year are they killed? And what year do they come back to life? Oh, and all this happens during the Second Woe.

Rev 12:4 a woman was about to give birth... 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child... the child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Who is this woman and child and when was he born? After he is born the woman is in the wilderness for 1260 days.

Rev 13:1 a dragon and a beast coming out of the sea. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 5 The beast... exercised its authority for forty-two months.
Who is the dragon and who is the beast? What year did the beast began to exercise its authority?

Skywalker · Dec 16, 2020

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Jesus said the Church would be built upon the understanding that Jesus was the Christ.

Jesus thus gave Peter's explanation Authority to guide mankind in the dispensation of Christianity, and that the progression and guidance would be via that line of thought. It became the Catholic line.

Unfortunately doctrine crept in earlier than it should have, as men could not decide upon who Christ was and instead of agreeing to disagree, in a love of a lasting unity, dominate men wanted power and the rest is history.

Regards Tony

The misdeeds of the Catholic Church don't mean that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah.

Skywalker · Dec 16, 2020

CG Didymus said:
And what about Muhammad? No 621? And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus comes in the clouds in 1844 or 1863?
All of these Baha'is use to get to 1844. And each one Baha'is say started in 621AD the year of the Hegira.

Rev 11:2...outer court (of the Temple)... given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
When is the outer court given to the Gentiles and what happens after 42 months?

3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days...
When do they start prophesying?

7 the beast overpowers and kills them. 8 Their bodies lie in the street... 9 For three and a half days... 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them.
They prophesy 1260 then are killed. What year are they killed? And what year do they come back to life? Oh, and all this happens during the Second Woe.

Rev 12:4 a woman was about to give birth... 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child... the child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Who is this woman and child and when was he born? After he is born the woman is in the wilderness for 1260 days.

Rev 13:1 a dragon and a beast coming out of the sea. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 5 The beast... exercised its authority for forty-two months.
Who is the dragon and who is the beast? What year did the beast began to exercise its authority?

If Jesus came on the clouds in the 1800s then we would be in the Millennium now.

Trailblazer · Dec 16, 2020

Skywalker said:
I don't think Christians believe in the second coming of Jesus because of nostalgia. Christians reject Baha'u'llah because there doesn't need to be another Messiah.

You are right, that is another reason that Christians reject Baha'u'llah, they don't believe anyone else but Jesus will ever be needed, but that presents a serious problem, because would leave all the Messianic Age prophecies unfulfilled, since Jesus was never planning to return to earth.

Skywalker said:
The Bible verses of the second coming of the Messiah don't mention 1844.

The Bible verses of the first coming of the Messiah don't mention the year Jesus was born either.

Daniel accurately predicted the first coming of Christ, and I believe he also accurately predicted the second Coming of Christ, who was the Messiah the Jews have long awaited. Here are some excerpts from a chapter entitled:

10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

The proofs are explained in this chapter, following the two paragraphs below.

“All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.

In the religion of Muḥammad there is the promise of the Mihdí and the Messiah, and it is the same with the Zoroastrian and the other religions, but if we relate these matters in detail, it would take too long. The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments. Justice and truth will encompass the world; enmity and hatred will disappear; all causes of division among peoples, races and nations will vanish; and the cause of union, harmony and concord will appear. The negligent will awake, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dumb will speak, the sick will be cured, the dead will arise. War will give place to peace, enmity will be conquered by love, the causes of dispute and wrangling will be entirely removed, and true felicity will be attained. The world will become the mirror of the Heavenly Kingdom; humanity will be the Throne of Divinity. All nations will become one; all religions will be unified; all individual men will become of one family and of one kindred. All the regions of the earth will become one; the superstitions caused by races, countries, individuals, languages and politics will disappear; and all men will attain to life eternal, under the shadow of the Lord of Hosts.

Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets, for we wish for proofs drawn from the Holy Books.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 39-40

If you do the math, the Bible predicted the first coming of Jesus to the exact year and it predicts the second coming to the exact year.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

Trailblazer · Dec 16, 2020

Skywalker said:
There's a difference between looking manly and someone's appearance revealing that they are a man.

Baha'u'llah did both.

CG Didymus · Dec 16, 2020

InvestigateTruth said:
Yes, it does skip over the Bab and Muhammad, because the Bible prophecies in this case is talking about a time when the Glory fo God comes. Glory in Arabic is Baha. Bahaullah is Glory of God.

You're all over the place. Which "Christs" come after Jesus? You say Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. One Baha'i made the "Lamb" The Bab. Now you skip The Bab and Muhammad and go directly to Baha'u'llah.

And since you have to fulfill supposed prophecies of all religions, do they also have the "Glory of God" as the one promised? Or, for them, do you take whatever name they say is the one coming, like Kalki or Maitreya, and make it fit the Baha'i beliefs?

Skywalker · Dec 16, 2020

Trailblazer said:
You are right, that is another reason that Christians reject Baha'u'llah, they don't believe anyone else but Jesus will ever be needed, but that presents a serious problem, because would leave all the Messianic Age prophecies unfulfilled, since Jesus was never planning to return to earth.

The Bible verses of the first coming of the Messiah don't mention the year Jesus was born either.

Daniel accurately predicted the first coming of Christ, and I believe he also accurately predicted the second Coming of Christ, who was the Messiah the Jews have long awaited. Here are some excerpts from a chapter entitled:

10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

The proofs are explained in this chapter, following the two paragraphs below.

“All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.

In the religion of Muḥammad there is the promise of the Mihdí and the Messiah, and it is the same with the Zoroastrian and the other religions, but if we relate these matters in detail, it would take too long. The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments. Justice and truth will encompass the world; enmity and hatred will disappear; all causes of division among peoples, races and nations will vanish; and the cause of union, harmony and concord will appear. The negligent will awake, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dumb will speak, the sick will be cured, the dead will arise. War will give place to peace, enmity will be conquered by love, the causes of dispute and wrangling will be entirely removed, and true felicity will be attained. The world will become the mirror of the Heavenly Kingdom; humanity will be the Throne of Divinity. All nations will become one; all religions will be unified; all individual men will become of one family and of one kindred. All the regions of the earth will become one; the superstitions caused by races, countries, individuals, languages and politics will disappear; and all men will attain to life eternal, under the shadow of the Lord of Hosts.

Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets, for we wish for proofs drawn from the Holy Books.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 39-40

If you do the math, the Bible predicted the first coming of Jesus to the exact year and it predicts the second coming to the exact year.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

Why would we need another Messiah and Savior? The context of Jesus talking to Pilate wasn't about if He would return to earth or not.

Biblical prophecies say that Jesus would be born before the destruction of the second temple.

Christianity vs Baha'i

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