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Christianity vs Baha'i
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Yes, but Jesus said, Elijah comes again in the End Time.
The first time, Malachi said, Elijah comes, it was fulfilled by John, and when Jesus said Elijah comes in the End Time, it was fulfilled by the Bab.
"Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things." Matthew 17:11
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Do you think Jesus was talking about futurism or historicism in the verse about Elijah coming again? The Bab fulfilling that prophecy doesn't sound like either but it sounds closer to historicism.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
" Glory of God" is a separate individual from Jesus:
Ezekiel 43 :: NIV. and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east.
If it was a part of Jesus, Ezekiel would have also said, glory of God and Messiah.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Matthew 17:11 is a prophecy, but matthew 17:12 is history. You would know this from Grammer of the verse: the tense of the verse.
Jesus appeared in the Old Testament as a pillar of cloud and fire. That's similar to the verse about the glory of God. That verse doesn't mention the Messiah because it's talking about God in his fullness, it's not a messianic prophecy.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
John 16
25“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
29Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30
"...Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed..."
- Bahaullah
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17
Those verses dont contradict Jesus appearing as a pillar of cloud and fire any more than Jesus saying forgive them father for they know not what or my God my God why hast thou forsaken me, contradicts my opinion.
Faith is always built on finding and accepting God's given guidance and not cherishing our opinion.
Our opinions can become our hell, like this advice;
John 12:43
For they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.
Or this passage we all need to consider deeply,
Proverbs 18:2
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
Revelation 3:22
"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Regards Tony
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
There are a number of claims made by Bahais that go against the teaching of scripture.
The detailed manner in which God has revealed His Word only makes it possible for one man to fulfil the role of Messiah.
These prophecies, and the way in which they are fulfilled, are all to be found within the pages of the Bible.
To be the Messiah, the Messiah must be:
1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.
2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.
3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.
4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.
5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.
6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.
7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.
8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.
9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.
10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.
11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.
13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.
14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.
15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.
16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.
17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.
18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.
19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.
20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.
21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.
22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.
23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.
24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.
25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.
26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.
27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.
28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. rejected by his own people.
29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.
30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.
31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.
32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.
33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.
34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.
35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.
36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.
37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.
38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.
39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.
40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.
41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.
42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.
43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.
44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.
45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.
46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.
47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.
48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.
49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.
50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.
51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.
52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.
Did Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah fulfil these prophecies?
The reason that such detail is included is because we should not be mistaken over the identity of the Messiah. Once resurrected, and sitting in majesty, we should not be fooled into thinking that some other pretender has returned. There is only one who will bring judgment, and that is Jesus Christ.
The detailed manner in which God has revealed His Word only makes it possible for one man to fulfil the role of Messiah.
These prophecies, and the way in which they are fulfilled, are all to be found within the pages of the Bible.
To be the Messiah, the Messiah must be:
1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.
2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.
3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.
4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.
5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.
6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.
7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.
8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.
9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.
10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.
11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.
13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.
14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.
15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.
16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.
17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.
18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.
19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.
20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.
21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.
22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.
23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.
24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.
25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.
26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.
27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.
28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. rejected by his own people.
29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.
30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.
31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.
32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.
33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.
34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.
35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.
36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.
37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.
38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.
39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.
40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.
41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.
42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.
43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.
44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.
45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.
46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.
47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.
48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.
49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.
50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.
51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.
52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.
Did Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah fulfil these prophecies?
The reason that such detail is included is because we should not be mistaken over the identity of the Messiah. Once resurrected, and sitting in majesty, we should not be fooled into thinking that some other pretender has returned. There is only one who will bring judgment, and that is Jesus Christ.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Who determined that to be the Messiah, the Messiah must be what you have listed here?
In the book of Daniel, the Bible predicted that the one and only Jewish Messiah would come prior to the temple's demise. The Old Testament prophets declared He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12, 13), die by crucifixion (Psalm 22), and be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9). Only Jesus Christ fits all of the prophecies about who the Messiah would be.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God gave humans free will, so everyone is free to believe whatever they want to about what will happen in the future.
"In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living."
The Day of Judgment
Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—
… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.
The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.
In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So we have mythical/fictional stories in the Bible, and you and I have to make sense of them. Which ones are not literally true? The Bible has the Sun stopping in the sky, Jesus walking on water, etc. all fictional? All absurd? But not a virgin birth? I find it hard to believe that unless it was a belief of the Baha'i Faith that you wouldn't find it also absurd.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
And also to people who have made Jesus in their own image.
The Old Testament said that the Messiah would be the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, in human form, in Isaiah 9:6. Psalm 2:7 mentions Jesus being the only begotten Son of God.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So what is the great miracle if Muhammad and Baha'u'llah teach that Jesus' soul didn't die? When nobody's soul dies? The great miracle of the NT is that Jesus conquered death and rose again. I'm absolutely okay if you believe it was a hoax, a lie and a fabrication. But Baha'is can't go that far and say that. They have to say how full of Truth the Bible is and how great and wonderful Jesus was. Yet, deny major things taught in the Bible and NT. in order to get him physically dead and gone and not physically able to come back to make way for Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah.
But that doesn't work for Born-again Christians. They need a living Savior that resurrected from the dead to prove that he has the power to forgive them of their sins and save them from hell. And I don't see those as misinterpretations. Those things very much seem to be what the NT is teaching.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Since Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, we know that Jesus was not the Messiah who would be the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, in human form, as per Isaiah 9:6. That Messiah was Baha'ullah.
“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you.Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63