So Jesus is not God?

Skywalker said:

How can Jesus be the Messiah but not God?

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Hockeycowboy said:

Where do you get that from?

The text doesn’t say ‘the Father sent His Son.’ If It did, you might have a more valid reason for making that statement.

No....it says “God.” Which, according to your Trinitarian view, is ‘all three.’

The account harmonizes with Paul’s inspired words at 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, where ihe differentiates God from Jesus...”there is actually to us, one God, the Father.....; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ”

Take care.

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• ‘God raised up Jesus from the dead...’

Hockeycowboy said:

Where do you get that from?

The text doesn’t say ‘the Father sent His Son.’ If It did, you might have a more valid reason for making that statement.

No....it says “God.” Which, according to your Trinitarian view, is ‘all three.’

The account harmonizes with Paul’s inspired words at 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, where ihe differentiates God from Jesus...”there is actually to us, one God, the Father.....; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ”

Take care.

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Soapy said:

Skywalker, the messiah is a servant of God:
Isaiah 42:1...”Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.”

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metis said:

"Son of God" does not mean God, and that terminology was used by Jews as all believers are in essence "sons (and daughters) of God".

OTOH, "Son of Man" is considered to be messianic.

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JerryMyers said:

Yes, context is everything, BUT, first, you need to read in context, NOT out of context. In context, ‘Son of God’ does NOT mean God, in fact, Jesus himself said so:
“Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” – John 10:34-36

The context of this passage is that the Jews were accusing Jesus of blasphemy that is, they said Jesus claimed to be God the Son because he said he is the son of God. So, Jesus was asking the Jews back why was it NOT a blasphemy to them when in their own Law it was said they are all gods and yet, they all knew they are not truly gods but when Jesus says he’s the son of God, it’s blasphemy when he too is NOT God.

Fact is, Jesus only knew the Old Testament, he has never heard of the New Testament in his whole life on earth. As such, Jesus would be very familiar with OT passages such as Isaiah 42:1, where God Himself referred to Jesus as “This is My Servant”, NOT “This is My Son”. So, clearly, when Jesus used the term ‘son of God’ or ‘God’s son’ to himself, he was referring to himself as someone who’s subservient to God, that is, a servant of God. It's only in the NT, that the authors began to predominantly use the term ‘Son of God’ to describe Jesus in an obvious attempt to project him as God the Son.

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moorea944 said:

[I believe context is everything. Son of God means the same thing as God when you look a the context.]
Your kidding me, right?.....

So, you have a son as old as his father, Jesus learned and suffered to be perfect, yet is co-equal with his father.... doesnt make sense, does it.... of course not...

[I believe that is more a view from customary use but not the real meaning of "one." It adds "in mind" to the scripture when those words are not in the text. In case you didn't know, one means one and not two.]
Not sure where your going with this.... Jesus was one with the father, but it doesnt make him God. If that is the case your trying to make, then we are all God too. John 17

[I believe it is conceptual. God in a body is co-equal with God outside a body.]
Ughhhhhh......

[I believe I do so why don't you?]
I dont believe in the trinity because it is false doctrine. Trinity was "added into" religion around 325 AD with Emperor Constantine.

[I believe that is patently incorrect. there is no "a God", He is God.]
Not sure why you really want Jesus to be God? STill having a hard time with that. Doesn't scripture say that he was a man and the son of God? If Jesus was a God on the cross, the atonement goes right out the window.

[I believe Isaiah told us that.]
Told us what? Your not matching up with what people are saying so it is hard to know where your questions and answers are coming from..... Can you match it up, would love to know what your referring to... Thanks

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Skywalker said:

How can Jesus be the Messiah but not God?

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Muffled said:

Please refresh my memory. When was the term Son of God ever used in the OT other than in prophecy.

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moorea944 said:

Great question, thanks.
Well, what does scripture say. Bible does not say that Jesus is God to begin with. God is the God and father of Jesus. Jesus is the son of God, not God the son. Plus..... who told you that Jesus is God? Just curious....

Now look on who Jesus was in the bible. Is was a man, like us, same nature (Heb 2), he suffered, was taught, was not... born perfect, he became perfect later in life. God's cant die, Jesus did. Plus, the Messiah had to conquer sin.... if he were God, that would be pointless... I mean, I can go on forever about this topic. .....

The Messiah had to be like us. Look at what David (2 Sam 7) and Moses (Deut 18) was told about a coming Messiah....

To say that Jesus is God totally degrades our Creator. There is only one God, no other Gods beside him. So why are you saying that there is?...

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Muffled said:

I believe your statement does not make sense. Has God ever suffered in a body before. If not then it is something to be learned. Jesus as a person without sin is always perfect. As for Age the Body of Jesus has age but the Spirit of God does not.

I believe I am not kidding. Context tells you what you need to know about a particular verse.

I believe you need to reread that. Jesus never says that it is so, only that He is praying it will be so. I am as close as anyone to that and still I don't believe I will ever permanently be that.

I believe that is false and has absolutely no evidence to support it.

I believe that is an illogical statement. I don't believe one can have atonement without God.

I believe he told us that the Messiah is the Everlasting Father:
Isa 9: 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon 4 his shoulder,
and his name shall be called 5
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

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moorea944 said:

[I believe your statement does not make sense.]
That's because you believe in the trinity.....

[Has God ever suffered in a body before.]
God does not suffer....

[ Jesus as a person without sin is always perfect.]
No.... he wasnt always perfect... He was not born perfect, he was made perfect later in life. Remember???

[I believe I am not kidding. Context tells you what you need to know about a particular verse.]
I totally agree.

[I believe you need to reread that. Jesus never says that it is so, only that He is praying it will be so. I am as close as anyone to that and still I don't believe I will ever permanently be that.]
Not sure what your talking about. You really need to match up what I'm saying in order for me to answer it correctly.

[I believe that is false and has absolutely no evidence to support it.]
Again, I dont know what your talking about. Please match up what people are saying...

[I believe that is an illogical statement. I don't believe one can have atonement without God.]
What is an illogical statement?......

[I believe he told us that the Messiah is the Everlasting Father:]
I already answered, but I can click and paste it back up... Plus, please stop making Jesus God. Really not sure why you think that he "has to" be God...

Jesus is most definitely a father without having to be Yahweh Himself. We understand the process and timing when Jesus becomes a father on the basis of Isaiah 53:10... when the Messiah makes himself an offering for sin he will see his seed (his descendants). It is on the basis of Christ sacrificing himself that he can have children. Aren't we born again through baptism, joining Jesus in his death and resurrection through the baptismal grave?!!

In this same context the saints will qualify as priests in the Kingdom Age, In the First Kingdom Age the priests had to be the sons of the High Priest (from Aaron down). Therefore the priests (immortal) of the restored Kingdom Age will also have to be the children of the High Priest Jesus told Nicodemus (John 3) that one has to be born again in order to enter the Kingdom. Well Jesus is the Father for this rebirth, on the basis of his sacrifice (as noted in Isaiah 53:10).

The fact that Jesus qualifies for the title of "Everlasting" Father is the fact that those born again through him will inherit everlasting life. The difference between Christ and God in the context of "everlasting" is that God is from everlasting and to everlasting. Jesus is only to everlasting, as he had an origin... but he will be the father of those who inherit everlasting life.

Abraham is also given the title "Father" as he is the Father of the faithful and those baptized into Christ are constituted his children on the basis of faith (Gal 3:27-29). Abraham will qualify as an "Everlasting Father" as well, as he will inherit everlasting life.

There is no reason why a son can't also be a father. Cant someone be both a son and a father? My father had a father. The difference is that Yahweh had no beginning. He has no father, unlike Jesus. I certainly have a father, but when (if) I am born again I will necessarily have a new father. That will be Jesus, who also had a father, but his Father didn't have a father.

Hope this helps....

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Skywalker said:

How could Jesus have become perfect later in life if an almah is a maiden which at that times is a word that referred to a woman who was probably a virgin? What did Jesus suffer for? I believe he suffered for our sins. If Jesus isn't God, there is no way that he could conquer sin. Jesus conquering sin shows that He was God. Jesus said before Abraham was I am.

Isaiah 44: 6 implies that the Messiah is the Redeemer. God is the only one who could pay the price of sin because God is infinite.

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Skywalker said:

Jesus being the Everlasting Father means that Jesus is God because Jesus said call no man Father. The Bible says that those who follow Jesus are spiritual Jews not that Abraham is our spiritual father in the sense that Jesus is our Father. It's speaking about Abraham's children in an indirect way.

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moorea944 said:

[If Jesus isn't God, there is no way that he could conquer sin.]
God was working "though" Jesus His son. If God wasnt helping him then it wouldnt have worked.

[ Jesus conquering sin shows that He was God.]
Absolutely not!!! It shows that God was working through his son.

[Jesus said before Abraham was I am)
That's correct. The Gospel was preached before Abraham. Even Adam and Eve knew about a coming Messiah (Jesus). Jesus was preached before Abraham.

[Isaiah 44: 6 implies that the Messiah is the Redeemer.]
Again, no. It's not talking about Jesus, it's talking about God. God is the ultimate savour.. Period!! But now... like scripture tells us, he does it through Jesus. God has "given" his son that power too.

[ God is the only one who could pay the price of sin because God is infinite.]
God has to pay a price for something? The creator of the Universe? That doesnt even make sense.... Or do you mean Jesus.... And what do you mean by "paying a price"? On what?

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Skywalker said:

What do you think it means that Jesus is the son of God? Is that a reference to the virgin birth? Jesus was born of a virgin because He is God.

Why would God work through his son to conquer sin! A finite person can't pay the infinite price of sin.

Doesn't it take away from God's glory to call anyone else a Messiah?

Paying a price means God took on the penalty of humanity not following God's laws. Since the punishment of sin is infinite it can only be paid by God because God. How could Jesus pay the price of sin if he wasn't God?

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moorea944 said:

[What do you think it means that Jesus is the son of God? Is that a reference to the virgin birth? Jesus was born of a virgin because He is God.]
Ughhhh... lol I know what it means to be son of God. But... it doesnt make him God. I think your thinking.... If Jesus's father is a God, then Jesus "has to " be a God too. But that' not the case. Scripture tells us that too. Why was Jesus born a man? If Jesus is God, then why go through all that father and son stuff? Jesus was born a man for a reason. Do you know what that reason is?

[Why would God work through his son to conquer sin!]
Because Jesus couldnt have done it by himself. Jesus, like us, need God in our lives. Jesus even said that he could do nothing without the Father.

[ A infinite person can't pay the infinite price of sin.]
Not sure what that means.... What is an infinite person?

[Doesn't it take away from God's glory to call anyone else a Messiah?]
I'm not calling anyone else the Messiah, only Jesus, esp in our times. God in the OT was Israel's saviour, rock, etc.... But know with his son, God has given his son all power. Plus, Jesus wasnt here or born yet in the OT. Jesus also didnt pre-exist too. No reason for that.

[Paying a price means God took on the penalty of humanity not following God's laws. Since the punishment of sin is infinite it can only be paid by God because God. How could Jesus pay the price of sin if he wasn't God?]
Is there a verse on that? Then I'll answer that one....

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Skywalker said:

Jesus was born of a virgin because he was sinless. Jesus was born because what difference does it make if Jesus was a man or a woman? If you mean by a man why did Jesus live a human life and not come to earth as God in His glory, it's because to get to the situation where he would die for our sins Jesus had to live like a person.

Why didn't God conquer sin on his own without Jesus? I agree that without God sin cannot be conquered.

God is sinless and because people aren't sinless they can't pay the infinite price of sin in a finite amount of time. We can only accept God doing that on our behalf.

Jesus was the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. He appeared to the parents of Samson and to Moses.

The Bible says that the Messiah paid the price for our sins in Isaiah 53: 4-6.

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moorea944 said:

[Jesus was born of a virgin because he was sinless.]
All babies are born sinless. But they ARE born with a nature that is prone to sin. Meaning, eventually, they can and will sin. Jesus had that same nature in him because he was born of a woman. (Heb 2) And that's the whole point. He conquered sin with his father's help.

[Why didn't God conquer sin on his own without Jesus?]
He didnt have to. God does not sin. It had to be someone like us to do that.

[God is sinless and because people aren't sinless they can't pay the infinite price of sin in a finite amount of time. We can only accept God doing that on our behalf.]
And what's that price? And Jesus did that on our behalf. He died to make God right that the sin nature has to be put to death. We do that through baptism. (Romans 6)

[Jesus was the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. He appeared to the parents of Samson and to Moses.]
I really cant believe what Im reading here. Your saying Jesus is an angel? Jesus wasnt born yet. If the bible says it was an angel, dont change that and put Jesus in that part. Angels are angels and Jesus was separate from that. Who's telling you this stuff?... Even Stephan in Acts 7 tells us that it was an angel with Moses.

[The Bible says that the Messiah paid the price for our sins in Isaiah 53: 4-6.]
Not sure where your getting this "price paid" thing.... It's not a substitutionary thing, it was out of his father's love. Jesus didnt die so we dont have to.... Is there a verse that mentions "price paid"?

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Skywalker said:

Babies aren't born sinless because David said that he was brought fourth in iniquity. He wasn't just a sinner because of his sins, he had sin in him.

Why would a sinner conquer sin? A sinner cant pay the price of sin because they are a sinner themselves. Only a sinless holy God can pay the price of sin.

What does Jesus dying have to do with baptism?

I'm not saying Jesus is an angel, but as the second member of the Trinity, Jesus is self existing. The Bible says that Jesus created all things. Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

The iniquity of all was laid upon Jesus means the same thing as he paid the price for our sin.

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