The thief on the cross and jesus.Did they go to paradise underground?

Clear · Dec 12, 2020

POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @Frank Goad

I am pleasantly perplexed, even amazed at how historically accurate your “guesses” are as they relate to early Judeo-Christians and their beliefs. I can’t tell if you are getting your guesses from your own logic, or from reading early Christian literature, or from a study of the Restorational Christian Movement and their doctrines that seek to return to early Christian beliefs. If you worked these doctrines out on your own, then, kudos to you.

Regarding Luke 23:43 When Jesus promises Dymas, the thief “Truly I say to you. today you will be with me in Paradise.”

You mentioned 4 points of interest and amazement to me :

Frank Goad said : "Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together. (opening post)

Frank Goad said : "Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground. And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God. (opening post)

Frank Goad said : "I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God. Because of Jh:3:13. (opening post)

Frank Goad said : "In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades. (opening post)

The early Christian literature does speak of the thief Dymas dying, and upon his death, the literature describes him entering the bowels of the earth and discovering Jesus was also there and was in the process of leading the spirits there, out of hades and on to resurrection and later, on to heaven.

In terms of the earliest authentic Christian interpretations and Christian worldviews on the world of spirits from their literature, the early Judeo-Christian interpretation was that when the body died and was interred, the cognisant spirit went to hades, which was a world of cognisant spirits where they awaited later resurrection and judgment.

The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt

REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT

VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.

Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.

Regarding your interesting example of Dymas, the thief on the cross and Jesus promise that Dymas would be in “paradise”, Perhaps I can make a specific point regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”

For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.

This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)

ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.

The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as a genre. But more on this later.

In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)

“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)

None of these references refer to the punishment of "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle".

@frank Gould, you also said : “ I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20. (Opening Post)

This was a very insightful description (If it was a guess, it was a very, very good guess regarding early Christian beliefs)

For example, another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).

Thus, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts for those who had not accomplished all that they could in this life.

THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES

For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)

Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear · Dec 12, 2020

POST TWO OF TWO

SPIRITS WERE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL

In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :

“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate,to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)

It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.

Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose.

The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches holding to later religious theory, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)

The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :

“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.

The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”

GOSPEL PRINCIPLES ARE TAUGHT TO THOSE PRESENT

Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.

In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah, who is there with all other spirits of the dead said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “

SONS OF SYMEON BELIEVE, CONVERT AND BECOME WITNESSES OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES

Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)

Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”

I suppose since we started with the thief Dymas, it might be well to end with him. The literature tells us that Dymas enters the world of spirits (which Jesus called Paradise) and when Dymas was seen, he said : "... I was a thief, who committed all sorts of wicked, ness upon earth. 8 And the Jews crucified me with Jesus; and I observed the surprising things which happened in the creation at the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus. 9 And I believed him to be the Creator of all things, and the Almighty King; and I prayed to him, saying, Lord remember me, when thou comest into thy kingdom. 10 He presently regarded my supplication, and said to me, Verily I say unto thee, this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

Upon hearing this, the angel who was guarding Paradise, asked Dymas to wait there, "...till Adam, the father of all mankind, shall enter in, with all his sons, who are the holy and righteous servants of Jesus Christ, who was crucified.

At this point all of the "patriarchs" rejoice at the mercy of God which allows even sinners to change and be worthy of reward.

Well @Frank Goad , very interesting O.P. and I am honestly surprised at how accurately your O.P. describes early Christian traditions and beliefs.

I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful Frank. Like @Katzpur said : "I think you're on the right track" if you are trying to describe early Christian beliefs.

Clear
δρακτωω

Deeje · Dec 12, 2020

Brian2 said:
What you wrote is based on the false Watchtower teaching about hades/sheol being the grave, the hole in the ground,,,,,,,,,,,,,and on the false Watchtower teaching that humans are no more than animated bodies without a conscious spirit in them. It is amazing how doctrines are intertwined like that.

It’s a Jewish teaching actually, not a WT teaching. There was no notion of an immortal soul in the Hebrew Scriptures at all. Death was the opposite of life, just as God told Adam...he would return to the dust of the earth out of which he was made. There was no hint of any afterlife. That came later once humanity became thoroughly indoctrinated with the notion that souls are immortal. They never were. A “soul” in the Hebrew Scriptures was a living, breathing creature. Both humans and animals and sea creatures were called “souls” in Genesis. Adam was not ‘given’ a soul at his creation, but “became” a soul when God started him breathing. A living soul breathes...a dead soul goes to Sheol where the is no conscious activity. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10) All activity ceases at death. Death is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. Resurrection is what the Bible teaches.....and it is yet future for those who “sleep” in their graves. (John 5:28-29)

The doctrine of an immoral soul simply props up the devil’s first lie....”you surely will not die”....yet God said they would. So who lied? Jesus said it was satan...do you say it was God?

Brian2 said:
But of course the Watchtower teachings are false because the Bible does not teach what the Watchtower teaches about those topics.

You can believe whatever you wish about that. It is an exercise of your free will.

Brian2 said:
After Jesus resurrection when His soul reanimated His body after it came from hades (with the thief) it does appear in the quote you gave (John 20:17) that Jesus then ascended to heaven and received His Kingdom (as in Daniel 7:13,14) since He later said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me".

Jesus was not a soul after his death. The soul that was Jesus, died. There is no immaterial part of humanity that survives death. That is an adoption from paganism. Jesus returned to life as a spirit, resurrected by his Father as the first one to undergo such a resurrection. This is why he is called “the firstborn from the dead”. (Colossians 1:18) All the resurrections performed in the Bible were restorations of their former life as living, breathing souls. Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, not a soul of flesh.

And it seems strange indeed if Jesus had to receive authority from God, if he was God. Christendom’s teachings are absolute nonsense....I know because I was raised with them.

Brian2 said:
Personally I do not think He was wondering about on earth in all of those 40 days.

I am not sure whether your personal opinion matter at all to God. Scripture is not about what anyone “thinks”...it is about what God says. There is only one road to life and we have to find it in company with a brotherhood...those who all speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10; Hebrews 10:24-25) Have you found them yet?

You have not answered why Jesus would suddenly change His usual saying of "Verily I say to you" into "verily I say to you today". That by itself shows a biased translation

So Jesus suddenly said something as he was dying that day, (his last day of human life) to someone to whom he was making a future promise, and you will read that statement as meaning something the rest of scripture does not corroborate? Seriously? The bias in translation is demonstrated by placing a comma where it clearly does not belong unless someone is trying to promote immortality of the soul. Pleas find me a single verse in scripture where the words “immortal soul” are found.....

Read my post and see that there is no way Jesus was “with” that thief in heaven “that day”. Jesus was in his grave for three days and nights, just as he said he would be....the thief was not a disciple, in fact he had previously joined in with the other one in ridiculing Jesus, but suddenly had a change of heart....since Jesus promised a resurrection even to the “unrighteousness”, (John 5:28-29) was Jesus lying? Or could you be mistaken.....?

Brian2 · Dec 12, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
Such a perfect answer. There were no commas in the Greek or Hebrew texts. When they were finally translated to other languages the religious ideas of the times influenced where the commas were placed. The promise to the thief was indeed made THAT DAY of a future paradise here on earth when Jesus returns. And no, I am not a JW but the truth has no religion.

There were no commas in the Greek but since Jesus never said "truly I tell you today" but always said, "Truly I tell you" it is reasonable to assume that the comma goes after that saying of Jesus "truly I tell you". In this case it is the Watchtower religion that puts the comma in a place that makes the scripture not contradict their teachings.

Brian2 · Dec 13, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
And what supports this besides your own biased religious beliefs. Jesus was NOT in paradise the same day he died so how could the thief be with him the same day? So what is your belief about where Jesus was on the day he died?

Maybe my religious belief is biased no doubt but the Bible supports it.
Jesus was in paradise the same day He died with the thief.
From this site I found the quote below, which may explain why Jesus said that He and the thief would be in paradise that day.
Sheol - Wikipedia
Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל‎ Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which the dead go. Under some circumstances they are thought to be able to be contacted by the living. Sheol is also called Hades in Greek.

While the Hebrew Bible describes Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BC – 70 AD) Sheol is considered to be the home of the dead wicked, while paradise is the home of the dead righteous until the Last Judgement (e.g. 1 Enoch 22; Luke 16:19–31). In some texts, Sheol was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead,[1] and is equated with Gehenna in the Talmud.[2] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol.[3] This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of it.[1]

In Jesus parable/story about Lazarus and the rich man Jesus would have been using the Jewish beliefs of the day about Hades/Sheol the place where the souls of people go after death.
This next quote shows that we do have a spirit soul that survives the death of the body.
Berean Literal Bible
Matthew 10:28 And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Brian2 · Dec 13, 2020

Deeje said:
It’s a Jewish teaching actually, not a WT teaching. There was no notion of an immortal soul in the Hebrew Scriptures at all. Death was the opposite of life, just as God told Adam...he would return to the dust of the earth out of which he was made. There was no hint of any afterlife. That came later once humanity became thoroughly indoctrinated with the notion that souls are immortal. They never were. A “soul” in the Hebrew Scriptures was a living, breathing creature. Both humans and animals and sea creatures were called “souls” in Genesis. Adam was not ‘given’ a soul at his creation, but “became” a soul when God started him breathing. A living soul breathes...a dead soul goes to Sheol where the is no conscious activity. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10) All activity ceases at death. Death is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. Resurrection is what the Bible teaches.....and it is yet future for those who “sleep” in their graves. (John 5:28-29)

The doctrine of an immoral soul simply props up the devil’s first lie....”you surely will not die”....yet God said they would. So who lied? Jesus said it was satan...do you say it was God?

We are not discussing whether the soul is immortal, we are discussing whether the soul actually exists. The Hebrew scriptures point to the existence of the soul and that is what Jews today and in Jesus day believed (except for the Sadducees) and that seems also to be what Jesus and His followers believed.
The Bible is a gradual revelation of the truth. The earlier parts do not have the whole story. It is a bit like "new light" being revealed,,,,,,,,,,,,,but in the case of the Bible the new light does not mean that the old light was darkness.
Just what the afterlife was is seen less clearly in the OT but that there is an afterlife is clear and that is without contamination from external sources.
Physical death is certainly the cessation of physical life but that does not mean that the spiritual part of man dies. Jesus knew this and so said.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
So the body is not the spiritual part of man and this is why we are pictured as living in tents as in:
2Cor 5:1 1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,…
The JW teaching makes our body equivalent to our soul. We are a living soul in Genesis 2:27 and a dead person or animal is a dead soul,,,,,,,,,that is a dead body.
Numbers 19:11Whoever touches any dead body will be unclean for seven days.
This however is nowhere near the full meaning of "soul" in the scriptures.
Eccles 9:5,6,10 do not say that man goes out of existence at death, they give a state of the dead and say that the man will go there. The Watchtower interprets these as saying a person goes out of existence. The body goes to the grave and the man no longer exists, but the grave is not sheol in the scriptures.
"Resurrection" is "recreation" in Watchtower theology. A copy of a person is made and this is meant to be the same person. But a copy of me is not me unless my essence carries from me in this life to the next. If God made a copy of me now, as He could, it would not be me. If God makes a copy of me after I am dead, it is not me. Easy to understand, hard to accept for a JW who has certain doctrines to defend.

Deeje said:
You can believe whatever you wish about that. It is an exercise of your free will.

Beliefs aren't always an exercise of our free will. They can be the result of deception.

Deeje said:
Jesus was not a soul after his death. The soul that was Jesus, died. There is no immaterial part of humanity that survives death.

Not according to Jesus (Matt 10:28)

Deeje said:
That is an adoption from paganism. Jesus returned to life as a spirit, resurrected by his Father as the first one to undergo such a resurrection. This is why he is called “the firstborn from the dead”. (Colossians 1:18) All the resurrections performed in the Bible were restorations of their former life as living, breathing souls. Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, not a soul of flesh.

2Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

We (our spiritual essence) live in this purely physical tent, and of course it is part of us, what we are, and we are clothed with an immortal and incorruptible tent at the resurrection. But that does not mean that this physical is done away with completely. It is transformed, but not thrown away. We end up with a "spiritual body" not a "spirit body".
Matt 28:6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.
John 2:19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.
Luke 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Jesus spirit came back from Hades and was resurrected in His transformed, immortal and incorruptible body. We read directly from Jesus words. "I am not a spirit".

Brian2 · Dec 13, 2020

Deeje said:
And it seems strange indeed if Jesus had to receive authority from God, if he was God. Christendom’s teachings are absolute nonsense....I know because I was raised with them.

Certainly some of the teachings of "Christendom", or parts thereof, are not correct, but not all of them. As you can see from the Bible quotes I have given, much of the teaching is correct. The representation of many of these beliefs by the Watchtower is not correct however.
Jesus is the Son and so the Father is higher in authority and on top of this Jesus took the nature of a servant (something He obviously did not have before He became a man----so He was not an angel) and was in a position of even less authority. He owned as a man and as the Son, all that the Father has (John 16:15) and has now inherited it all from His Father. He has come from the servant Son of God to the inheritor of it all, including the name above all names (Jehovah) and all power and authority. He has been the King of in the Kingdom of God since being given all this after going to the Father (Dan 7:13,14).

Deeje said:
I am not sure whether your personal opinion matter at all to God. Scripture is not about what anyone “thinks”...it is about what God says. There is only one road to life and we have to find it in company with a brotherhood...those who all speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10; Hebrews 10:24-25) Have you found them yet?

1Cor 1:10 implies that divisions can be in the body of Christ, but that it is not a good thing. Nevertheless is does not mean that disagreements mean that one part has become separated from the Body. (unless the gospel is different and who Jesus is is different it seems)
I don't know how Heb 10:24,25 says anything about what you are talking about.
And yes I have found the brotherhood of fellow children of God in "Christendom" even if some of us are weeds. Unfortunately the unity in the JWs seems more enforced than real (you cannot disagree too much or you get warned and eventually kicked out and away from friends and family) and the unity is not one of all being children of God because it is only the 144,000 who are given this distinction with the JWs, whereas in Christendom all who believe and love God are joined to Christ spiritually and are one in that way.

Deeje said:
So Jesus suddenly said something as he was dying that day, (his last day of human life) to someone to whom he was making a future promise, and you will read that statement as meaning something the rest of scripture does not corroborate? Seriously? The bias in translation is demonstrated by placing a comma where it clearly does not belong unless someone is trying to promote immortality of the soul. Pleas find me a single verse in scripture where the words “immortal soul” are found.....

As I said, we are not discussing the immortality of the soul, we are discussing it's existence, which the scriptures I have given demonstrate. To put the comma either before or after "today" does not matter to Christian theology one iota. But it does matter to Watchtower theology if the comma is placed either before or after "today". It has to be after in WT theology because if it is before it means that WT teaching is wrong. So the WT mistranslates, because of that. And how do I know it has mistranslated, because of the many places in the gospels where Jesus says "Truly I tell you" and never says "Truly I tell you today".

Deeje said:
Read my post and see that there is no way Jesus was “with” that thief in heaven “that day”. Jesus was in his grave for three days and nights, just as he said he would be....the thief was not a disciple, in fact he had previously joined in with the other one in ridiculing Jesus, but suddenly had a change of heart....since Jesus promised a resurrection even to the “unrighteousness”, (John 5:28-29) was Jesus lying? Or could you be mistaken.....?

It is easy to see it is a deceptive translation for anyone except someone who needs the comma after "today".
The Watchtower does not want to be seen to be wrong about sheol/hades, soul and death and so take it upon themselves to mistranslate the Bible. It is easy for them to do that as they are used to doing it in so many places in their translation.
As I posted to another participant in this discussion, Jesus was using the understanding and terminology of His day concerning Sheol/Hades.
Sheol - Wikipedia
Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל‎ Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which the dead go. Under some circumstances they are thought to be able to be contacted by the living. Sheol is also called Hades in Greek.

While the Hebrew Bible describes Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BC – 70 AD) Sheol is considered to be the home of the dead wicked, while paradise is the home of the dead righteous until the Last Judgement (e.g. 1 Enoch 22; Luke 16:19–31). In some texts, Sheol was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead,[1] and is equated with Gehenna in the Talmud.[2] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol.[3] This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of it.[1]

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The thief certainly believed in Jesus and so became a child of God.

lostwanderingsoul · Dec 13, 2020

Brian2 said:
There were no commas in the Greek but since Jesus never said "truly I tell you today" but always said, "Truly I tell you" it is reasonable to assume that the comma goes after that saying of Jesus "truly I tell you". In this case it is the Watchtower religion that puts the comma in a place that makes the scripture not contradict their teachings.

Just because there are other places where Jesus does not use the word "today" is not proof he did not say it here. I will tell you that there are other religions besides JW's that believe the comma should go after the word today. Maybe it was the religious group that made the first translation that put the comma where it agreed with their beliefs. The fact remains that Jesus was not in paradise on the day he dies so either the comma is wrong or Jesus lied. I tend to believe Jesus did not lie.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Frank Goad said:
Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God.Because of Jh:3:13.In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades.Or seeing corruption.I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20.

Jesus was with him in the harrowing of hell area.

Deeje · Dec 13, 2020

Brian2 said:
We are not discussing whether the soul is immortal, we are discussing whether the soul actually exists.

We know that the soul exists...what is under discussion is what the soul actually is, scripturally speaking. According to the scriptures a "soul" is what Adam "became" when God starting him breathing. The "breath of life" is the spirit that defines "life"itself. All souls breathe, so without breath, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) Souls do not live on after the death of the body. They cannot think, feel or experience any kind of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10) They cannot feel emotions because even the primary emotion of love has "perished".

Brian2 said:
The Hebrew scriptures point to the existence of the soul and that is what Jews today and in Jesus day believed (except for the Sadducees) and that seems also to be what Jesus and His followers believed.

Please think back and understand what position the Jewish leaders in Jesus day held from God's perspective. Their beliefs had strayed so far from what Moses and the prophets had taught them that he said they were fit only for "gehenna". (Read Matthew 23) What is Gehenna? It isn't hades. (sheol)

Brian2 said:
The Bible is a gradual revelation of the truth. The earlier parts do not have the whole story. It is a bit like "new light" being revealed,,,,,,,,,,,,,but in the case of the Bible the new light does not mean that the old light was darkness.

Never said it was....we certainly don't view it that way. Gradual clarification of important points came as the truth was revealed by God's spirit through his servants over time. Jesus called it "the sacred secret of the kingdom of God" (Mark 4:11) .....that some would die a human death and be raised as spirits to rule with Christ in heaven. They did not fully realize this until Pentecost when the holy spirit anointed them for spirit life in heaven. This is what Paul spoke about...leaving the old body of flesh and being given a new body....an incorruptible one. The desire to go to heaven was powerful, but it had to be implanted.

To understand what that anointing meant, we know that we are programmed to live in paradise, but the first paradise for humans was right here on earth. God never offered mankind another paradise because this was going to be our permanent home. There was no natural cause of death, and if humans had remained obedient, Christ would never have needed to come and redeem them, so they never would have died. There would have been no need for the Kingdom of God to "come" because it was their first rulership...and they lost it through disobedience.

Just what the afterlife was is seen less clearly in the OT but that there is an afterlife is clear and that is without contamination from external sources.

There is no "afterlife" as in a spiritual part of man surviving death. The only "afterlife" that the Jews were taught was by resurrection, which Jesus and his apostles demonstrated to show them in real terms what it meant. It was a return to this life, reunited with their families, here on earth.

There was no "afterlife" mentioned at all in the Hebrew scriptures.....all that the pre-Christian servants of God knew was that God's kingdom was going to eventually rule the world under the leadership of his Messiah, and if they passed away before it became a reality, they looked forward to being raised back to life to enjoy it.

Speaking of all the faithful ones of pre-Christian times, Hebrews 11:13 says...
"In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

Those who love what God loves, know that we don't belong in this world....we feel like aliens.

Brian2 said:
Physical death is certainly the cessation of physical life but that does not mean that the spiritual part of man dies. Jesus knew this and so said.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Read it again and then tell me what "destroy" means. Men can take our life in this system of things, but God can restore our lives in the "new earth". (2 Peter 3:13) No human can take our life permanently, because God alone has the power to restore life. Even Job knew about the resurrection. (Job 14:14-15)

Brian2 said:
So the body is not the spiritual part of man and this is why we are pictured as living in tents as in:
2Cor 5:1 1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,…
The JW teaching makes our body equivalent to our soul. We are a living soul in Genesis 2:27 and a dead person or animal is a dead soul,,,,,,,,,that is a dead body.

Who is "we"? As in all governmental arrangements, the rulers are in the minority.....those over whom they rule will be in the majority. All who go to heaven have a specific role.....as "kings and priests" (Revelation 20:6) If everyone who goes to heaven is a king and priest, then over whom do they rule and for whom do they act as priests? There are no sinners in heaven.

Solomon lamented that humans and animals share the same death.....(Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Brian2 said:
Eccles 9:5,6,10 do not say that man goes out of existence at death, they give a state of the dead and say that the man will go there. The Watchtower interprets these as saying a person goes out of existence. The body goes to the grave and the man no longer exists, but the grave is not sheol in the scriptures.

The grave is "sheol".

Here it is from the Tanakh...
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10...
"5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going."

The ancient Jews knew what "sheol" meant. It never meant a place of conscious existence, until they adopted the idea of an immortal soul from the pagans, most probably from Greek sources. Immortality of the soul is a Platonic Greek idea.
Not really dying makes death not so scary...unless of course you swallow the whole hellfire and brimstone lie. Then they turned "gehenna" into "hellfire". So what is "gehenna"?

Deeje · Dec 13, 2020

Brian2 said:
"Resurrection" is "recreation" in Watchtower theology. A copy of a person is made and this is meant to be the same person. But a copy of me is not me unless my essence carries from me in this life to the next. If God made a copy of me now, as He could, it would not be me. If God makes a copy of me after I am dead, it is not me. Easy to understand, hard to accept for a JW who has certain doctrines to defend.

Do you know what the Bible teaches about regeneration or re-creation?
Mark 19:28...
To those who will rule with him Jesus said....
“Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (ESV)

"Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (ASV)

“Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (NIV)

“I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

All the highlighted phrases are a translation of the word "palingenesia" which Strongs defines as...
"new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration".....so in the world to come, all things will be regenerated or recreated....including those who come back in the resurrection. This nonsense about having to continue life in some shadowy form to be the authentic "you" is rubbish. Every seven years there is not a single molecule in your body that was there seven years ago. We are in a constant state of renewal in our cells, but sin messed that up and we die because old age interrupts that process. If God can create a new body and restore all our memories and personality traits, we will recognize ourselves as the person we were before we 'closed our eyes' in death.

God is going to restore his original purpose to have a perfect, sinless race of humans to take care of this planet for him. What God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)

When Jesus raised Lazarus, he didn't say he'd gone anywhere...and his sister's response was to speak about the "resurrection on the last day"....something Jesus' Jewish disciples expected in the future. There was nothing said of Lazarus living on somewhere else. If he was in heaven, or existing somewhere better, then why bring him back to this life, only to die a second time?

Brian2 said:
2Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

As I have said before....this is the anointed writing for their fellow anointed ones......they alone have the desire to go to heaven in full knowledge of what that means.....They will be 'kings and priests' in heaven, leaving their old life, family members and their physical bodies behind to take up that assignment. (Revelation 20:6) These it says are resurrected "first". Others follow later when Jesus is ruling and he calls them from their graves. (John 5:28-29) There are two resurrections for two different groups of people. If there is a "first", there has to be a second. Those heaven bound are also described as "firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" (144,000)....again "first" followed by those who are resurrected later. (Revelation 14:4)

Those of us desiring to live in paradise have a completely different view of what it means to live forever in beautiful surroundings. Our natural longing is for an earthly paradise, not heaven. An anointing for heaven means leaving all earthly ties behind and serving their Lord in a ruling, judicial and priestly capacity in the spirit realm. God chooses them, not us. That anointing has to override their natural desire to stay on earth. Because most people equate paradise with heaven, they believe that is where everyone will go....but that is not what the Bible teaches.

Brian2 said:
We (our spiritual essence) live in this purely physical tent, and of course it is part of us, what we are, and we are clothed with an immortal and incorruptible tent at the resurrection. But that does not mean that this physical is done away with completely. It is transformed, but not thrown away. We end up with a "spiritual body" not a "spirit body".

Again...who is "we"? And what exactly is "spiritual essence"? Where will I find that spoken about in the Bible?
Are you one of the anointed then? Are you going to be a king and a priest ? If so, who will you be ruling and for whom will you officiate as a priest?

Brian2 said:
Matt 28:6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.
John 2:19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.
Luke 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Jesus spirit came back from Hades and was resurrected in His transformed, immortal and incorruptible body. We read directly from Jesus words. "I am not a spirit".

Why was the tomb empty? To fulfill a prophesy. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:32)

True, Jesus in his materialized form was not a spirit....but you notice he did not say he was "flesh and blood"...but "flesh and bones"? His materialized form would have been the same as when other spirit messengers appeared to God's servants to bring them instruction or vital information. As I mentioned before, it was against God's law for Jews to communicate with spirits, so the angels were always in material form. It was the demons who could no longer materialize and so they used various forms of spiritism to communicate with mankind....sometimes pretending to be a good spirit or even invading the bodies of some whom they possessed and harassed.

I see a certain desperation in your posts to prove us wrong, but on every point you have been shown in scripture that you are mistaken. I know how annoying that must be...but I have come out of Christendom, and proving every point to myself through thorough research was a necessity for me. I don't find your research very thorough at all....sorry.

Brian2 said:
Certainly some of the teachings of "Christendom", or parts thereof, are not correct, but not all of them. As you can see from the Bible quotes I have given, much of the teaching is correct. The representation of many of these beliefs by the Watchtower is not correct however.

You are certainly entitled to your view, but unless you have heeded God's warning at Revelation 18:4-5, you are still in "Babylon the great". All the best with that....

Clear · Dec 14, 2020

Hi @Deeje and @Brian2

1) REGARDING THE GREEK WORD RENDERED "DESTROY" IN MATTHEW 10:28

Brian2 said : "Physical death is certainly the cessation of physical life but that does not mean that the spiritual part of man dies. Jesus knew this and so said.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Deeje said : “Read it again and then tell me what "destroy" means. (post #30)

Απολεσαι, the word rendered “destroy” in Matthew 10:28 means to lose something. It is not an annihilation. If one is trying to describe the early Christian belief, then Brian2 is correct historically since the early Christians describe in great detail in their literature regarding the spirit within the body and what happens to that spirit after it separates from the body.

2) REGARDING THE JEWISH AGREEMENT WITH CHRISTIANITY REGARDING A COGNISANT, COMMUNICATE SPIRIT EXISTING AFTER DEATH

Deeje quoted : Ecclesiates 9:"5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.”

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going."

Remember, both the Jews and the Christians believed the spirit which inhabited the body lived on after the body dies. The Jews and Christians had their own interpretation of such scriptures and they are not the same as yours Deeje. Remember, the early Christian religion of the first few centuries and their interpretations is not the same as the Jehovahs Witness religion of the 1800s.

It is not only the early Christian literature with their interpretations that believed in the spirit living beyond the death of the body, but we must remember that the Jews DID believe that the spirits in Hades/Sheol/world of spirits dead were cognizant and had knowledge of certain things. This is why the Talmud spends so much time discussing Ecclesiates 9. The gist of the Talmudic discussion is that, “If the scripture says the dead know nothing, yet we know the dead do know things, then what does this scripture mean?”

The Talmud summarizes that the dead do not know much of what is happening in the world with relatives, commerce, and other details they were concerned with when they were living, but they still knew much about other things, they communicated with each other, they retained their sense of person, etc.

Thus the Jewish Talmud spends a great deal of discussion on the fact that the Jews did believe spirits were cognizant and communicative and had knowledge but that their knowledge was limited.
The point is that IF you two are speaking of EARLY Judeo-Christianity, then Brian2 is perfectly correct in his description of their belief that the spirit lived on after the body died.

Clear
φυτζσεω

Deeje · Dec 14, 2020

Clear said:
Hi @Deeje and @Brian2

1) REGARDING THE GREEK WORD RENDERED "DESTROY" IN MATTHEW 10:28

Brian2 said : "Physical death is certainly the cessation of physical life but that does not mean that the spiritual part of man dies. Jesus knew this and so said.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Deeje said : “Read it again and then tell me what "destroy" means. (post #30)

Απολεσαι, the word rendered “destroy” in Matthew 10:28 means to lose something. It is not an annihilation. If one is trying to describe the early Christian belief, then Brian2 is correct historically since the early Christians describe in great detail in their literature regarding the spirit within the body and what happens to that spirit after it separates from the body.

That is not true according to my studies Clear.

The word in question is "apollymi" and according to Strongs, it means...
"to destroy

to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill"

So I don't know how you can say that Jesus is not stressing annihilation. This is the destruction of a life in its entirety....meaning no future existence whatsoever. It is "gehenna" which is a death from which no one returns.

2) REGARDING THE JEWISH AGREEMENT WITH CHRISTIANITY REGARDING A COGNISANT, COMMUNICATE SPIRIT EXISTING AFTER DEATH

Deeje quoted : Ecclesiates 9:"5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.”

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going."

Remember, both the Jews and the Christians believed the spirit which inhabited the body lived on after the body dies.

I think you need to remember that the Jews had gone completely off the rails by the time Jesus came to take up his ministry. Matthew 23 is a fair assessment of his opinion of the Jewish leaders of the day. Judaism was "abandoned" by his Father as the incorrigible mess that it was.

Jesus was not sent to the Jewish leaders but to the "lost sheep" who were ignored and treated like dirt by them. He sought out the "tax collectors and sinners" whom he considered much more worthy of his time and attention than the self-righteous Pharisees. He led them out of that corrupted religious system and into the "new covenant" as his Father had promised through Jeremiah.

When Jesus consigned these Pharisees to "gehenna", he was sentencing them to eternal death....."gehenna" is the "second death"..."the lake of fire".....complete annihilation.

Christendom was foretold to come into existence as the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. Just as Judaism had adopted the traditions of men, so too would Christendom go down that same track...and with the same result. The devil doesn't change his tactics.

You seem to like referring to apocryphal works and the early church writings as backup for your claims, but they are not canonical scripture and are meaningless to me. You can quote them all you like but you might just as well be quoting Harry Potter.

The Jews and Christians had their own interpretation of such scriptures and they are not the same as yours Deeje. Remember, the early Christian religion of the first few centuries and their interpretations is not the same as the Jehovahs Witness religion of the 1800s.

No kidding....why do you think we separated ourselves as far away as possible from Christendom, in obedience to God's command at Revelation 18:4-5? We have very little in common with any of the churches of Christendom because we did our homework....we actually checked to see how much of Christendom's doctrines were factually biblical.....and the answer was about less than 5%. It seems that everything Christ told them to do, they found excuses not to do them and all the things he said not to do they justified doing them.

All the churches basically hold to the same core of beliefs......such as the trinity...immortality of the soul...and a hell of fiery torment. They may differ on the peripherals, but the core is solid....solid mud that is.

It is not only the early Christian literature with their interpretations that believed in the spirit living beyond the death of the body, but we must remember that the Jews DID believe that the spirits in Hades/Sheol/world of spirits dead were cognizant and had knowledge of certain things. This is why the Talmud spends so much time discussing Ecclesiates 9. The gist of the Talmudic discussion is that, “If the scripture says the dead know nothing, yet we know the dead do know things, then what does this scripture mean?”

How do they know what the dead know? How do they know that the spirits that contact the living are spirits of the dead? Demons can impersonate the dead, as was the case with the witch of Endor summoning the dead prophet Samuel.....Samuel was in his grave awaiting a resurrection as all the ancient Jews believed. But the pagans were want to play with the demons who led them right down the path to death. The dead do not live. Why would they? If God says we die, who says we don't? What did God tell Adam?

The Talmud summarizes that the dead do not know much of what is happening in the world with relatives, commerce, and other details they were concerned with when they were living, but they still knew much about other things, they communicated with each other, they retained their sense of person, etc.

Thus the Jewish Talmud spends a great deal of discussion on the fact that the Jews did believe spirits were cognizant and communicative and had knowledge but that their knowledge was limited.

I have no interest in the Talmud either. They are the writings of men, interpreting words and concepts that God never authorized. It was not written under the inspiration of God. They already had their inspired scripture, did God say they needed more? No! I believe that they did. They were so busy nit-picking the details of the law that they forgot why it was written.

The point is that IF you two are speaking of EARLY Judeo-Christianity, then Brian2 is perfectly correct in his description of their belief that the spirit lived on after the body died.

I have no interest in the doctrines adopted in the apostasy that Jesus and his apostles foretold. If you want to accept those lies, then go right ahead....the "weeds" have nothing of value to teach me. I will stick to God's word. Everything I need to know is in the Scriptures.

Brian2 · Dec 14, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
Just because there are other places where Jesus does not use the word "today" is not proof he did not say it here.

There are NO other places where Jesus uses "today",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but of course He may have decided to change the habits of a life time for this one occasion just to confuse Christendom.

lostwanderingsoul said:
I will tell you that there are other religions besides JW's that believe the comma should go after the word today.

And those religions also do it on doctrinal reasoning.

lostwanderingsoul said:
Maybe it was the religious group that made the first translation that put the comma where it agreed with their beliefs.

It does not matter for my beliefs whether the comma goes after or before. It only matters with JWs and those other religions who put the comma after "today". There is plenty of evidence that hades/sheol is a place of comfort for some, a paradise, and that evidence is in the Bible and not just in the beliefs of the Jews of Jesus day.

lostwanderingsoul said:
The fact remains that Jesus was not in paradise on the day he dies so either the comma is wrong or Jesus lied. I tend to believe Jesus did not lie.

The fact remains that the only paradise the Watchtower knows about is what they call "paradise earth" even though the thief believed in Jesus and so became a child of God, an anointed one, part of the 144,000 who end up in heaven according to JW theology.
John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
I wonder why the Watchtower does not say that is where the thief goes, to heaven. It would certainly get rid of the annoying idea that Jesus is going to be with the thief in paradise earth when that is not part of the JW teachings. But of course the comma would still have to be after "today".
Maybe the thief had not had enough time to prove himself worthy of being an anointed one, and he obviously was not worthy, being a thief and all. That is a part of the JW gospel is it not, that someone has to prove themselves worthy?
But scripturally the thief seems to qualify for the 144,000. What do you think? Try giving a personal opinion instead of a Watchtower opinion.

lostwanderingsoul · Dec 14, 2020

Brian2 said:
There are NO other places where Jesus uses "today",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but of course He may have decided to change the habits of a life time for this one occasion just to confuse Christendom.

And those religions also do it on doctrinal reasoning.

It does not matter for my beliefs whether the comma goes after or before. It only matters with JWs and those other religions who put the comma after "today". There is plenty of evidence that hades/sheol is a place of comfort for some, a paradise, and that evidence is in the Bible and not just in the beliefs of the Jews of Jesus day.

The fact remains that the only paradise the Watchtower knows about is what they call "paradise earth" even though the thief believed in Jesus and so became a child of God, an anointed one, part of the 144,000 who end up in heaven according to JW theology.
John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
I wonder why the Watchtower does not say that is where the thief goes, to heaven. It would certainly get rid of the annoying idea that Jesus is going to be with the thief in paradise earth when that is not part of the JW teachings. But of course the comma would still have to be after "today".
Maybe the thief had not had enough time to prove himself worthy of being an anointed one, and he obviously was not worthy, being a thief and all. That is a part of the JW gospel is it not, that someone has to prove themselves worthy?
But scripturally the thief seems to qualify for the 144,000. What do you think? Try giving a personal opinion instead of a Watchtower opinion.

My opinion has NOTHING to do with Watchtower. I do not read or follow Watchtower. The Bible says that Hades is the grave, where all men go. The Bible says that the "dead know not anything". If they know nothing, how can they communicate with others and feel sorrow or joy? The teachings of most religions today are the result of Pagan ideas brought in around the fourth century when major changes were made in the religious world. Pagans believed that the dead could still feel pain and other feelings. Pagans believed that the soul was immortal. Pagans believed that a woman gave birth to God. None of these things are in the Bible but are a part of many major religions today.

Deeje · Dec 14, 2020

Brian2 said:
It does not matter for my beliefs whether the comma goes after or before. It only matters with JWs and those other religions who put the comma after "today".

Oh.....so it doesn't matter to you....? You just wrote post after post about how the comma was in the wrong place. I think your false assumptions are showing.

There is plenty of evidence that hades/sheol is a place of comfort for some, a paradise, and that evidence is in the Bible and not just in the beliefs of the Jews of Jesus day.

Please give us the reference for this statement....."sheol" (hades) is a place of rest, yes....paradise...no.

Brian2 said:
The fact remains that the only paradise the Watchtower knows about is what they call "paradise earth" even though the thief believed in Jesus and so became a child of God, an anointed one, part of the 144,000 who end up in heaven according to JW theology.

LOL...you crack me up. You purport to know what JW's believe and then you post something like that.....

Are you saying that we believe in deathbed conversions.....seriously? Its Christendom who holds that view.....but you knew that, right?

Brian2 said:
John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
I wonder why the Watchtower does not say that is where the thief goes, to heaven.

He was not a righteous man. He was not baptized and hence, not a disciple of Jesus Christ and those who go to heaven have an anointing from God and a history of faithful service unto death.

Revelation 2:10...
"Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

The thief was being executed as a lawbreaker, he was not being punished for being a Christian....so he hardly qualified for life in heaven. He will be among the "unrighteous" ones whom Jesus will resurrect on earth. (John 5:28-29) That is the paradise that Jesus promised him.

It would certainly get rid of the annoying idea that Jesus is going to be with the thief in paradise earth when that is not part of the JW teachings. But of course the comma would still have to be after "today".

I sense a little desperation here. All I see is a bagging out of our beliefs...have you got something of substance to say..... or is "attack" the best form of defense for you now?
Its a poor substitute for solid scriptural answers.

Brian2 said:
Maybe the thief had not had enough time to prove himself worthy of being an anointed one, and he obviously was not worthy, being a thief and all. That is a part of the JW gospel is it not, that someone has to prove themselves worthy?

Luke 22:28-30...to his disciples Jesus said...
"You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”

The thief hardly qualified as a disciple, let alone a potential King and Priest. (Revelation 20:6)
Do you really have any idea what the Kingdom of God is and what its purpose is?

Brian2 said:
But scripturally the thief seems to qualify for the 144,000. What do you think? Try giving a personal opinion instead of a Watchtower opinion.

I think your responses are looking very weak TBH.....God does not care about our personal opinions.....he only cares about the truth.....do you have it? Or do you only think you do? Faith must have the answers or it is blind. Bible study is my passion, so please keep your responses biblical....this is after all a debate forum, not a personal opinion forum.

lostwanderingsoul · Dec 14, 2020

Hi Deeje. I agree with most of what you say. However I would like more information on what the Bible says about who can "go to heaven" and when that would happen. I believe the Bible says no one has gone to heaven. And I think it says Jesus is going to set up the kingdom ON EARTH not in heaven. Can you give me more of your views on this? Thanks

Brian2 · Dec 14, 2020

lostwanderingsoul said:
My opinion has NOTHING to do with Watchtower. I do not read or follow Watchtower. The Bible says that Hades is the grave, where all men go. The Bible says that the "dead know not anything". If they know nothing, how can they communicate with others and feel sorrow or joy?

Sorry I mistook you for a JW.
The Bible says we all go to Sheol/Hades but this is not the hole in the ground that our bodies go to. Biblically there are differences even though sometimes they might be used synonymously.

Eccles 9:3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

It is good to take the whole passage and see what is meant that way. We can see that it tells us about the state of the dead, and that it does not tell us that the dead do not exist. The suggestion is that the dead do exist, but in the realm of the dead and that they have lost all touch with what is happening in the realm of the living. They know nothing of what happens there and can do nothing about it and about saving themselves.
Psalm 146 says something similar
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in mortal man, who cannot save. 4 When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.5Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,…
Saying that the dead know nothing does not mean they are completely unconscious and if it did it would not mean that there is not a spirit part of man that still exists.
There are other parts of the Bible which show that the spirit part of man still exists after death. To get the full picture we need to weigh all the parts of the Bible about that topic.

lostwanderingsoul said:
The teachings of most religions today are the result of Pagan ideas brought in around the fourth century when major changes were made in the religious world. Pagans believed that the dead could still feel pain and other feelings. Pagans believed that the soul was immortal. Pagans believed that a woman gave birth to God. None of these things are in the Bible but are a part of many major religions today.

Hades was used in the New Testament partly because the Hades of the Greeks was a similar thing. The realm of the dead, where the spirits of the dead go.
I don't know what pagans believed about the soul, I only care about what the Bible teaches. I can say that what I see is that the spiritual soul exists but I do not see that it is immortal. Certainly however God can destroy it in Gehenna if that is His judgement. (Matt 10:28) So in that sense it is not immortal. The idea of the soul's immortality seems to have come from the idea that our spirit comes from God, I don't think it has pagan origins even if no doubt it exists in pagan religions.
Physical death in the Bible is when our spirit (the life giving part) departs from our body. Spiritual death is when God (the life giver) departs from our spirit and so supplies no life. The life that God supplies is eternal life and this would mean that even from birth our spirit may have a shelf life unless God steps in and gives His eternal life to us. This is done with our spirit when we are born again and with our body at it's resurrection into an immortal and incorruptible body.
Mary is certainly the human mother of Jesus, the human Son of God who has 2 nature, divine and servant. Over time this naturally ended up as Mary being the mother of God, since Jesus is seen as equal to His Father in nature and so as much God in that way as His Father.
Theologians and subsequent church statements do go too far however no doubt and when protestants look at the old formal Churches with all their pomp and excesses etc we have a tendency to judge what comes out of them sometimes too harshly and do not see the meaning behind the words.

Brian2 · Dec 14, 2020

Deeje said:
Oh.....so it doesn't matter to you....? You just wrote post after post about how the comma was in the wrong place. I think your false assumptions are showing.

I don't know what you mean by false assumptions.
When it comes to the comma it does not matter theologically to me if it is before or after "today". It does matter to the JWs however because if the correct place is before then the JW teachings are wrong.
It certainly is easy to show that Hades exists as a place for the spirits of the dead and that it was called "paradise" in Jesus day for the righteous spirits there. It is also easy to show that the comma should be before "today" because of what was common for Jesus to say.

Deeje said:
Please give us the reference for this statement....."sheol" (hades) is a place of rest, yes....paradise...no.

Did you not read the quote from the article I posted.
Sheol - Wikipedia
Also look at Lazarus in Luke 16 and how he was comforted.
Also look at the witch of Endor story and see how Samuel complained about being disturbed from his rest. (1Sam 28:3-25)

Deeje said:
LOL...you crack me up. You purport to know what JW's believe and then you post something like that.....

Are you saying that we believe in deathbed conversions.....seriously? Its Christendom who holds that view.....but you knew that, right?

He was not a righteous man. He was not baptized and hence, not a disciple of Jesus Christ and those who go to heaven have an anointing from God and a history of faithful service unto death.............................
The thief was being executed as a lawbreaker, he was not being punished for being a Christian....so he hardly qualified for life in heaven. He will be among the "unrighteous" ones whom Jesus will resurrect on earth. (John 5:28-29) That is the paradise that Jesus promised him.

I did not know what the Watchtower teaches about deathbed conversions. Looking at the thief and him being relegated to the earthly paradise I thought that there would have to be a reason and I guessed it would be because the Watchtower theology is a gospel of works and earning your place and salvation. Works are the result of salvation and the Spirit of God in us however in the New Testament and the gospel is one of grace and salvation by faith.
I notice that the Watchtower tends to judge people instead of leaving it to Jesus.
When it comes to John 1:12 are you saying that this is not true because the Watchtower has judged the thief as unrighteous and so could not be a child of God because they have worked hard and suffered much. Hmmm, sounds to me like the parable of the labourers in the vineyard who get the same wages no matter how long they work. It also sounds like you want to make your own righteousness (which we cannot because our righteousness is filthy rags to God Is 64:6) instead of letting the Lord be our righteousness. (Jer 33:16) and accepting the gift of eternal life.

Deeje said:
I sense a little desperation here. All I see is a bagging out of our beliefs...have you got something of substance to say..... or is "attack" the best form of defense for you now?
Its a poor substitute for solid scriptural answers.

I enjoy bagging the teachings of the Watchtower. It is so easy to do. But I do give scriptural answers in amongst the bagging. You should concentrate on giving scriptural answers instead of starting to turn your attention to me and what I might be doing.

Deeje said:
Luke 22:28-30...to his disciples Jesus said...
"You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”

The thief hardly qualified as a disciple, let alone a potential King and Priest. (Revelation 20:6)
Do you really have any idea what the Kingdom of God is and what its purpose is?

I know the Kingdom of God is a lot more than the Watchtower teaches it is. I know also that the Old Testament saints are going to be in it and that I am a citizen now (I am in it).
Luke 22:28-30 is another one of those places where the Watchtower subtly changes the Bible to make it more in line with it's teachings. The more correct translation is that a Kingdom was given to or bestowed upon the disciples just as it was bestowed onto Jesus. The "covenant" spoken of is one where the recipient does nothing but accepts, as in accepting an inheritance. It is not a matter of Jesus having proven Himself good enough and it is not a matter of us proving ourselves.
And stop bagging the poor thief who has been accepted and forgiven by Jesus even if may have been an *** hole, just as each one of us is and each of the Governing body is.

Deeje said:
I think your responses are looking very weak TBH.....God does not care about our personal opinions.....he only cares about the truth.....do you have it? Or do you only think you do? Faith must have the answers or it is blind. Bible study is my passion, so please keep your responses biblical....this is after all a debate forum, not a personal opinion forum.

I was giving a scriptural view of the thief and you gave the Watchtower opinion of the thief, which has become your opinion. Then I wondered if I could get a real opinion from a JW and not the party line. I was not really expecting it as no doubt a JW has to watch their back when other JWs are in hearing distance, and so it was an unfair question.
Faith does not have to have all the answers. I'm sure you must be aware of this. But you should want to answer the answers I do have.

Clear · Dec 16, 2020

Hi @Deeje

I am sorry not to respond earlier. As the covid spike rises where I am, my work increases.

1) GREEK απολλθμι RENDERED “DESTRUCTION” IS NOT ANNIHILATION

Deeje said : “The word in question is "apollymi" and according to Strongs, it means...
"to destroy
1.
2. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
3. render useless
4. to kill" (post #33)

Yes, it can mean all of these things, but none of these things mean annihilation into “non-existence” but merely a change of form.
Also, remember, Strongs is NOT a tool for interpreters.

Απολλθμι, in all of its ancient uses referred to a “loss” of some sort. Loss of function, loss of use, loss of life, etc, “Loss”.

For example, in Papyri Petr III 51:5 it referred to “the money which they thought had been lost” (το αργυριον ο ωιοντο απολωλεναι).
In Papyri Oxy IV 742.23 (of 2 b.c.) the writer says “I am quite upset at Helenos loss of the money” (εγω ολος διαπονουμαι ει Ηελενος χαλκους απολεσεν).
In Papyri Fay III:3 the writer speaks of the loss of life, writing “I blame you greatly for the loss of two pigs…”.
In Papyri Tebt II 278:35 it speaks of the loss of a garment.
In Papyri Ryl II 141:21 a man complains “I lost 40 silver drachmae…” (The loss in the cases is a robbery – in a similar fashion to how the Talmud describes death as the spirits loss of a body). We use similar language sometimes in English parlance. ‘The man lost his life, trying to save the drowning child.” Etc.
In Papyri Petr II 4(1):4 quarrymen were worked “to death” and were “lost”.
When Christ prays in John 17:6 regarding the “men whom thou gavest me out of the world” he says in vs 12, “…I have guarded them, and none of them is lost…” (απωλετο), he is not speaking of the disciples being annihilated, but of being “lost”.
Similarly, when Luke 15:17, uses απολλυμαι, the youth is saying “the servants have bread enough to spare, but I perish here with Hunger.” The youth is not saying he is completely annihilated, but that he is losing his life.

The point is that in all instances in ancient usage, it represented NOT annihilation to complete non-existence, but some sort of loss.

2) THE COMPLAINT THAT JEWS WERE NOT LIVING PURE RELIGION
Deeje said : “I think you need to remember that the Jews had gone completely off the rails by the time Jesus came to take up his ministry.” (post #33)

“Completely” is an overstated generalization.
There were only certain jews who were condemned and often the condemnations made were for specific hypocrisy and for specific practices.
For example, Jesus never condemned either the Jews nor his followers for the ancient Jewish or Christian belief in a spirit that existed independent of the body.

3) THE ADMISSION THAT A RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT DOES NOT PAY ATTENTION TO HISTORY WHEN ATTEMPTING TO CREATE A HISTORICALLY CORRECT RELIIGON
Clear said : “The Jews and Christians had their own interpretation of such scriptures and they are not the same as yours Deeje. Remember, the early Christian religion of the first few centuries and their interpretations is not the same as the Jehovahs Witness religion of the 1800s.”

Deeje replied : “No kidding....why do you think we separated ourselves as far away as possible from Christendom…”
Deeje said : “You seem to like referring to apocryphal works and the early church writings as backup for your claims, but they are not canonical scripture and are meaningless to me.”
Deeje said : “As I said, I have no interest in what Jews said or didn't say (past or present) that is outside of scripture.” (post #85 different thread)
2) Deeje claims : “… I have no interest in being "an authentic historian of Judeo-Christian beliefs" (Deeje, #115different thread)
3) Speaking of the ancient Jews and Christians, Deeje claims : “…I do not need their testimony about anything. “ (Deeje, #115 different thread)

The problem I see with ignorance of and apathy to the Earliest Christianity and it’s historical contexts and belief is that the Jehovahs Witnesses cannot be as historically accurate when they created their own religion. Additionally, the Jehovahs Witness system of interpretation of early texts is unmoored and unconnected with those same early beliefs and the context the scriptures were created in.

WHY DOES A MODERN AND NON-HISTORICAL RELIGION HAVE PRIORITY OVER ANCIENT AND HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY?
New Testament Clement, was a convert of the apostle Peter and a colleague of Paul.
Clement, in his diary tells us in his own words what the apostle Peter taught him as the early Christian doctrines.

Deeje, Why would your modern interpretation and modern doctrines take priority over the interpretation and doctrines that Clement was taught by the apostle Peter?
For example,
You cannot claim your interpretation is more consistent with early scriptures than Clements.
You cannot claim your doctrines are “more Christian” than the doctrines Peter taught Clement.
You cannot claim your doctrines are more Correct than that which Peter taught Clement.
The early Christians possessed doctrines that were consistent with their scriptures and which doctrines existed from the earliest age that we have record of.

Why are the Jehovahs Witness new interpretations which never existed in any early Christian literature to be preferred over that of the earliest Christians which were quite consistent with the scriptures they had?

Clear
σεειδρω

The thief on the cross and jesus.Did they go to paradise underground?

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