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Hi @Frank Goad
I am pleasantly perplexed, even amazed at how historically accurate your “guesses” are as they relate to early Judeo-Christians and their beliefs. I can’t tell if you are getting your guesses from your own logic, or from reading early Christian literature, or from a study of the Restorational Christian Movement and their doctrines that seek to return to early Christian beliefs. If you worked these doctrines out on your own, then, kudos to you.
Regarding Luke 23:43 When Jesus promises Dymas, the thief “Truly I say to you. today you will be with me in Paradise.”
You mentioned 4 points of interest and amazement to me :
Frank Goad said : "Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together. (opening post)
Frank Goad said : "Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground. And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God. (opening post)
Frank Goad said : "I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God. Because of Jh:3:13. (opening post)
Frank Goad said : "In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades. (opening post)
The early Christian literature does speak of the thief Dymas dying, and upon his death, the literature describes him entering the bowels of the earth and discovering Jesus was also there and was in the process of leading the spirits there, out of hades and on to resurrection and later, on to heaven.
In terms of the earliest authentic Christian interpretations and Christian worldviews on the world of spirits from their literature, the early Judeo-Christian interpretation was that when the body died and was interred, the cognisant spirit went to hades, which was a world of cognisant spirits where they awaited later resurrection and judgment.
The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt
REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
Regarding your interesting example of Dymas, the thief on the cross and Jesus promise that Dymas would be in “paradise”, Perhaps I can make a specific point regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”
For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.
This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as a genre. But more on this later.
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the punishment of "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle".
@frank Gould, you also said : “ I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20. (Opening Post)
This was a very insightful description (If it was a guess, it was a very, very good guess regarding early Christian beliefs)
For example, another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
Thus, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts for those who had not accomplished all that they could in this life.
THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES
For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
Hi @Frank Goad
I am pleasantly perplexed, even amazed at how historically accurate your “guesses” are as they relate to early Judeo-Christians and their beliefs. I can’t tell if you are getting your guesses from your own logic, or from reading early Christian literature, or from a study of the Restorational Christian Movement and their doctrines that seek to return to early Christian beliefs. If you worked these doctrines out on your own, then, kudos to you.
Regarding Luke 23:43 When Jesus promises Dymas, the thief “Truly I say to you. today you will be with me in Paradise.”
You mentioned 4 points of interest and amazement to me :
Frank Goad said : "Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together. (opening post)
Frank Goad said : "Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground. And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God. (opening post)
Frank Goad said : "I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God. Because of Jh:3:13. (opening post)
Frank Goad said : "In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades. (opening post)
The early Christian literature does speak of the thief Dymas dying, and upon his death, the literature describes him entering the bowels of the earth and discovering Jesus was also there and was in the process of leading the spirits there, out of hades and on to resurrection and later, on to heaven.
In terms of the earliest authentic Christian interpretations and Christian worldviews on the world of spirits from their literature, the early Judeo-Christian interpretation was that when the body died and was interred, the cognisant spirit went to hades, which was a world of cognisant spirits where they awaited later resurrection and judgment.
The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt
REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.
Regarding your interesting example of Dymas, the thief on the cross and Jesus promise that Dymas would be in “paradise”, Perhaps I can make a specific point regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”
For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.
This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “thou shalt be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven.
The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king. Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)
ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as a genre. But more on this later.
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)
“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .
“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the punishment of "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle".
@frank Gould, you also said : “ I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20. (Opening Post)
This was a very insightful description (If it was a guess, it was a very, very good guess regarding early Christian beliefs)
For example, another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
Thus, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts for those who had not accomplished all that they could in this life.
THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES
For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)
Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
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