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Human Sexuality and So-Called "Holy Men"

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love




ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!

One cannot help but reflect on the fact that so many (so-called) "holy men" have also used the power granted them by the beliefs of their followers to make rather gratuitous use of those same women. I'm not going to provide names -- the list is far too long, but you can find them with ease. Hindu, Catholic, Protestant -- you name it. (Oh, and not always women, either. Sometimes it's children -- boys or girls, it doesn't seem to matter all that much.)
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
It seems like the human inclination to be amorous or celibate are near to the root of the condition. For there probably always were those who felt that doing something satisfying was wrong, just as there were those who felt that not doing something satisfying was an equally wicked thing. Perhaps the universal theological suspicion was that those who indulge become less sharp or pure via their indulging, and those who refuse satisfactions of any kind will gain all the clarity. Furthermore, the idea was introduced that they gain heaven as well. But I really don't know that you really sacrifice the one thing to gain the other. Then again I don't want to discredit those who do so, for I like to think that they are doing something useful, for their sakes
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
One cannot help but reflect on the fact that so many (so-called) "holy men" have also used the power granted them by the beliefs of their followers to make rather gratuitous use of those same women. I'm not going to provide names -- the list is far too long, but you can find them with ease. Hindu, Catholic, Protestant -- you name it. (Oh, and not always women, either. Sometimes it's children -- boys or girls, it doesn't seem to matter all that much.)

What? You're not above taking a wholly gratuitous jab at "holy men"? I'm shocked!

To point out the obvious, yes, you speak truth. To point out the equally obvious, your statements in this context are off-topic non-sequiturs, to say nothing of having been done to death over a period of years. But don't let that stop you. RF is all about repetition. We're trying to kill each other with boredom. That's got to be it.

At issue is whether someone can be considered genuinely holy who denies human sexuality, beauty, etc. In a larger sense, what it means to be 'holy'. That some so-called holy men are sexual predators is a truth, but an irrelevant one.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This thread reminds me of a teaching story that made an impact on me having to do with monks and women: Two Monks and a Woman - Alpha Home

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.


Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself no longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This thread reminds me of a teaching story that made an impact on me having to do with monks and women: Two Monks and a Woman - Alpha Home

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.


Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself no longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”


EXACTLY! Thanks, Sunrise! I had forgotten that story -- but it is precisely what the OP is hinting at. The older monk is the master. He's learned to deal with his sexuality. The younger monk is the novice. He has yet to learn. Which of them is more likely to be 'holy' -- that is, to affirm life?
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I’m not qualified to say what makes a man holy or not. I suppose they have their reasons associated with ‘another world’ beyond this life. As far as ecstatic experiences go, sex is the primary competitor to any potential ‘divine’ experience.

Having explored both extremes on the spectrum of sexual activity: from random casual flings, to a meaningful committed relationship, to a prolonged state of abstinence now. I think it just depends where you’re at in your life. I can see the potential value in voluntary celibacy, whether it’s temporary or permanent.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Human life, one self in reality as a teaching just for the human so that science could not lie to self. Had a purpose. Seeing males told a roleplay in life by science in organization that is wrong.

So the teachings had to become as basic as quantifying self presence as one human, so then science could not own argument against human self survival.

As a teaching purpose.

Science falsification of word usage. Explained space, as space. Named space empty and voided of form, and oblivion. Without owning a number factor as you could not pertain a measure for emptiness. Hence it owned no number and even said so 0.

Science quote O God the stone planet mass as owning and holding form, stone due to spatial zero 0, yet God is held cold mass, not zero.....and was given a numbered measured factor from fusion/held into fission. Which is cold space/irradiation space the place for conversion in human science. Yet the human is only one self....in fact of teaching.

One self then sacrificed its one and only human life.

Now that one teaching quotes HUMAN as a teaching not 2 selves which is natural male and female. So the one Human quote is taught only.

As one a concept for self against one human self its own Destroyer, the scientist.

How it was actualized into a ONE teaching just for all humans.

As one self.

For if you are one self then you cannot do science. On one holy planet also O a stone planet you named as God.

Therefore as you did do it you falsified information and quoted Mother Holy womb space, Mother abomination irradiated space only after you attacked self life with female quotes...about womb.

Hence a male owning natural human equality in the presence 2 has not told self any truth. For you are equal in the life 2 humans as 2 humans balanced for life continuance.

However you changed your sexuality subliminal advice, self male in man presence by AI feed back which also owned naturally the recorded living female life.

So your mind became possessed with falsified self inference due to science encoded irradiation blasting from the body of O God heart core. A radiation release that did not belong in the natural gas cold evolved Immaculate heavens that allowed correct conscious self expression to exist without being affected.

For you were.

A living proof is a teaching that you can have sex with virgins when you die. First of all a human female is named a virgin by physical conditions in her life body. Secondly our day to day human living conditions physical bodily bio conditions only, the reason you can have sex.....stimulation. As the everyday human does not go about having sex all day long with physical changed body conditions, such as to gain a male erection to have sex.

These sorts of human expressed conditions are meant to be pondered to realize how science irradiation of the atmosphere gave back false idealism the one human natural life.

In reality......how we own self evidence of falsification of our one self....human.

Therefore if you use a quote one self, then sex does not and is not at all involved in that teaching model whatsoever.

Yet one self human teaching was about how science changed consciousness.

All the suffering about human sexual mind/psyche change was a cause of human science itself.

Holy Mother of God is a science preaching and it is false.

Space is the actual holy term reason for cooling and cold in origin discussion.

Why science taught self to not infer male or female quotes to scientific terminology for all of the incorrect human thinking and arguments caused because of its inference.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love




ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!





At this very moment, I happen to be reading a book by Terry Eagleton: Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God Debate. I just came across this passage after noticing your thread topic here earlier tonight:

If self-denial is not an end in itself for Christianity, neither is celibacy. Jesus was probably celibate because he believed that the kingdom of God was about to arrive any moment, which left no time for mortgages, car washes, children, and other such distracting domestic phenomena. This brand of celibacy, however, is not hostile to sexuality as such. On the contrary, it sees giving up sex as a sacrifice, and sacrifice means abandoning something you hold precious. It is no sacrifice to give up drinking bleach. When Saint Paul looks for a sign (or "sacrament") of the future redeemed world, he offers us the sexual coupling of bodies. It is marriage, not celibacy, which is a sacrament. Fullness of life is what matters; but working for a more abundant life all round sometimes involves suspending or surrendering some of the good things that characterize that existence. Celibacy in this sense is a revolutionary option. Those who fight corrupt regimes in the jungles of Latin America want to go home, enjoy their children, and resume a normal life. The problem is that if this kind of existence is to be available to everyone, the guerilla fighter has to forgo such fulfillments for the moment. He or she thus becomes what the New Testament calls "a eunuch for the kingdom." The worst mistake would be to find in this enforced austerity an image of the good life as such. Revolutionaries are rarely the best image of the society they are working to create.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
One cannot help but reflect on the fact that so many (so-called) "holy men" have also used the power granted them by the beliefs of their followers to make rather gratuitous use of those same women. I'm not going to provide names -- the list is far too long, but you can find them with ease. Hindu, Catholic, Protestant -- you name it. (Oh, and not always women, either. Sometimes it's children -- boys or girls, it doesn't seem to matter all that much.)
True that. Its often the case that a person doesn't even realize he is being hypocritical, too. Such is the myopia we all have. The human species has hypocritical tendencies, genetically bound into us. On top of it we have a domineering nature and a cruel one, and its difficult to see that part of us, too. Its like we live in a dream of ourselves that hides our truth.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
No talking. O a planet existing forming/evolving, self consuming, vacuum stopped consuming o smaller bodies......O suns still self consuming.

Spatial history.

Male thinker and observation quotes, womb of space is holy. Owns the holy status that I personally as a thinker state is Holy.

Now if a male says holiness from a male life, human and mind state, would he not then quote, if it is holy then do not change it? Why else own titles of holiness in thinking concepts?

I am holy for instance as a newly formed male baby, reincarnated and returned to my male human life as a thinker, rationally thinking before he decides to re choose science.

A theme, male human Creator inventor is the Destroyer of life by science?

So says to self dig up my past life evidence brother archaeologist and he does.

That sort of advice. Informed before he even begins to think new words in new strategies for new civilization structures which involves organizations. Organization fighting/arguing organization as who is right.

When the teachings quote....a human is just rationally one self by idealism...all future baby bodies come out of that one body/cell an ovary and hence we quantify in our male psyche the Mother is Holy.

Hence if you claim and so space I will quantify is a Mother of all form also hence it too is holy. Then neither life or presence or form, should be harmed.

As a male quote...one human is not both sexes. Sexuality is owned.

To then say, yet historic we claim everything came originally from the eternal.

O God bodies the mass of energy was a pre owned eternal body that went to hell and then cooled.

Human and bio existence came into the God history only after all masses in the heavens existed in their massed bodies.

Does science today quote sex anywhere other than in a natural human life?

Yes, with animals or the beasts is scientific quotes.

Did he compare his sexual life male and human to apes?

Yes he did, science still does it today.

Is he self present in the life, ape?

No.

Do apes having sex with him watching them, have human babies?

No.

Then in all of his known sexual idealisms, isn't ape sex another one of them, the beast thinking?

What about his claim that in sexual a n a l belief he gets the knowledge or wisdom of the powers of Satan?

When his theme in reality is all God isms?

One word for one body Holy in space is God......is not Satan.

What about the fact that his homosexual self gain he poses as a female role play, yet science quotes in biology he owns all conditions to be male human and expressive like his brothers are?

Would you not then make an assessment, seems like irradiation effects, fall out as transmitted and transmitters, encoders and voice/image feed back has affected his life/mind...and he already advised his own person by self expressive evidence, that can only be expressed whilst personally, a male and a human be living?

What about the fact that males quote our Father an adult male invented the sciences, and proof the mind psyche is affected, little boys born by one act only, human sex sperm and an ovary and a baby become scientific at a very early age?

Isn't all the evidence against self, the scientist cause and effect apparent in life, as an aspect he changed his owned sexuality and morality?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Moderation in all things.

God said "go forth and multiply." The Catholics misinterpreted that as "have as many babies as possible." That leads to unattended babies and overpopulation, and God is not an idiot. Rather, "go forth and multiply" (which was said when Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden for tasting the forbidden fruit of knowledge, and, for the first time, found themselves ashamed of their nudity, means don't be ashamed of having sex with your mate.

Men and women were made for mating. Although, I think that the forbidden fruit of knowledge in Eden was carnal knowledge (that is, the knowledge of mating). But that begs the question why God made men and women with organs capable of mating, then told them not to mate in Eden. It seems as though God put temptation in their way. So, it was not just the snake who tempted them, God also tempted them, then punished them for indulging in that temptation.

While normal sex and normal temptation is a fact of life around us, there are some around us who practice far worse (torture, bondage (sometimes not consensual), and mutilation). Sometimes sexual organs are tied off (sadism), and often under-aged minors find themselves bound, gagged, with their sexual organs strangled to the point of gangrene and amputation (or death). Sometimes their captors prefer murder and burial in a field rather than getting caught or paying for sexual favors.

Drugs are at the root of much of prostitution. Drug pushers pretend to be good and generous friends who give free addicting narcotics to those whom they want to control. Sometimes those are also laced with date-rape drugs to make their innocent victims do things that they ordinarily would not do. They soon find themselves addicted, and the free narcotics is now very expensive. Some burglarize to earn the money, while others sell their bodies to multiple elderly sex partners to earn the cash to get through another drug crazed night. Burned out, drinking booze out of a bottle in a paper bag on skid row (or similar location), these former drug addicts and prostitutes constitute a far number of the homeless. Their own families refuse to take them back because they victimize their own families.

Horrible child rapists, then run free, their addicted victims, too scared to turn them in. Some 12 year old girls, too addicted to stay out of prison and too addicted to keep their kids after being arrested, still have the maternal instinct, and still love their kids (or unborn kids), so they tread lightly around their drug addict boyfriends (who also sexually abuse them), for fear that they will lose their babies and their freedom (locked in the local constabulary).

Compare the lifestyle above with say the Amish culture. While it is true that often Amish teens quit the religion and are allowed to by their religion (to go wild and become prostitutes, then return to the religion). Mostly those who adhere to their religion (or go wild then come back) are good upstanding citizens. Although the Amish life is a bit stoic for most to endure.

There are religions that are not as extreme, and if the precepts of those religions are followed, the followers lead normal and happy lives.

I think that the goal should be to stay with a spouse, though almost impossible in today's serially monogamous society. It would be nice to have a quiet home in a quiet neighborhood, with a white picket fence, and good and caring neighbors who live a similar life.

Knowing what God wants, and following God are two different things. After all, there are Satan spewing preachers, like Reverend John Hagee, who tell us to pray to Jesus to help us win a war in Iraq. They don't have a clue about God's requirements. In Revelation, God ordered that we must not attack Iraq, and said "thou shalt not kill" and "thou must not bear false witness against thy neighbor" (remember the playing cards that W. Bush made calling their so-called enemy the doctor of death). God told us to turn the other cheek. So, we know what God wanted us to do, but few followed God when things got difficult (911 attack). Faith was lost....supplanted by greed and fear.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love




ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!




Asceticism is the antithesis to philosophical naturalism. For the later the natural world is all there is, for the former reality is worthless or unreal.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Most religions treat women as second class citizens, holy men just continue in the eyes of their god. If these holy men want to deny sexuality and sexual contact than thats up to them. Luckily we are not all repressed in the name of religion and hence humanity continues.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.​
ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!


Dear Sunstone

I think that - like with most things - when one is consumed with having a deep, spiritual relationship to God, other things feel like distractions that get in the way.

One could obviously discuss whether being consumed by/with/in anything, is good or not, but there have always been those who will happily “give up” worldliness (including close emotional relationships to people) for a close, devoted, personal relationship to God.

I think that when/if choosing God above others becomes burdensome, one should take that change in thought seriously, as ignoring it or belittling its significance could be quite damaging (to oneself, to others and to one’s relationship to God).

Whatever one does, it is always important to one’s relationship to God, that one do it out of free-will and not out fear or an empty sense of duty. Devoting oneself to God against one’s heart and true feelings, will not bring one closer, but rather further away from
the Godhead.

Humbly
Hermit
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love




ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!





Sexuality is part of our natural instincts. It is one of the few instincts that are still conscious in most people. Hunger is another. Humans have free all and choice, which means we can choose to allow this instinct to run, as it, or we can transform it into something else. Marriage was a willful way to structure and transform this instinct without necessarily denying it; limits natural promiscuity.

If you were to deny and/or repress your sexuality, this would dam up some of the natural psychic energy flow of the brain, connected to that instinct. Like a hydroelectric dam, the damming offers a way to harass its energy, so it can be used for other things.

Typically, the young holy man has to deal with a much stronger current; libido, that needs to be dammed. He also has yet to figure out how to use all this harnassed energy in constructive ways. So often the water build up behind the dam, faster than he can use it. This can cause problems, such as fantasy and the water working itself around the dam; unconscious compulsions. The older holy man, with less libido, and more experience in hydrodynamics, learns to harness the flow.

In terms of natural sexuality, the prime directive is reproduction. Pleasure is a carrot on the string that helps lead the horse to water. The compulsions of pleasure help to fool our willpower and choice, so the prime directive is satisfied, in spite of will.

Too many people think the carrot is the goal, since the carrot is often more conscious that the prime directive. Women want abortion to remain because although they do not wish to become pregnant each time they have sex, they want to follow the carrot but can fall prey to the prime directive that runs the show.

The current fad of infinite genders is based on the illusions from the carrot on the string. The holy man seeks the truth and represses the instinct so as to avoid this illusionary factor, in favor of a sublimated path toward the truth.

Eating works the same way, but is easier to see. Fasting is a way to dam this energy flow. Eating also has the carrot on the string of pleasure. If one was to eat only for the illusions of pleasure, without regard to the food and energy needs of the body; prime directive, that can harm the body. The holy man is trying to isolate and observe these illusionary factors so they can be mastered in favor of the prime directive.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Roman catholic priests were allowed to marry. Greek Orthodox catholic priests are allowed to marry if they do so before they become priests. Years ago, the Roman Catholic church had realized that their families got inheritances, and the church wanted their money, instead, so they made the rule (a rule of man not a rule of God) that they must not marry.

If they don't marry, how can they fulfill God's command "go forth and multiply?" How can they satisfy the sexual urges from their hormones? With no outlet for their sexual frustrations, many clergy turn to sex with young boys.

So, mankind's interference with God's laws results in crimes against God.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love




ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!




Honestly, many of them were pretty much insane from the ascetic practices they would inflict on themselves. This is especially true for early Christian patriarchs but harsh ascetic practices were common through the Middle Ages and somewhat until today. They would fast to the point of starving themselves to emaciation, whip themselves bloody, deprive themselves of sleep, wear hair shirts, lick the sores of lepers, etc. That and the existing sexism of the Greco-Roman world combined with a Gnostic anti-phyiscal world bent, added up to a hatred of women and sexuality.

India has a similar problem with sexism (menstrating women and girls are treated horribly due to ignorance and superstitious beliefs) and there are religious currents in various Dharmic religions that have an anti-physical world bent that is similar to what you can see in Christianity. I notice that Vaishnavism, especially, has an off-putting puritanical tendency that is mostly lacking in Saivism and Shaktism.

That's what happens when you desacralize the world and "mundane" life. There is no evidence of these sorts of attitudes in human religion or culture until about 3,000 years ago, really. It's an aberration that I personally theorize is a product of humanity's alienation from the natural world due to civilization. We've kind of gone insane because of it.
 
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