Christianity vs Baha'i

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
I meant that first and foremost people go to hell because of rejecting Jesus not because of the fact that they sinned, because God made a way for everyone to be saved from their sins. John 3:18 is where what I believe is supported by the teachings of Jesus.

Please note that this verse talks about belief in Jesus and it says nothing about Jesus dying for our sins.
That Jesus died for our sins is a Christian doctrine, an add-on.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

InvestigateTruth · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
What prophecies do you think don't match with Jesus? Why would be more than one Messiah? That's like saying that there is more than one Jesus.

We need more than one Jesus, because that Jesus was crucified and died and His soul left this world forever and cannot come back again to this world. So, someone else who is like Him, must have come to fulfill the End Time Prophecies.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I disagree with the Christian interpretations of the Bible because I am a Baha'i, so I believe that there were Revelations from God before and after Jesus. That is called progressive revelation.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1 ]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i

The Old Testament was progressive revelation. How does this support the New Testament also being progressive revelation? The New Testament has revelation that existed after Jesus and the Old Testament was before Jesus but the gospels of Jesus are writings about the teachings of the Messiah and the book of Acts is a reference to the gospel first being spread by the early followers of Jesus. The New Testament beyond the four gospels has continuity with the Old Testament revelation because it records the missionary work of the people who lived with Jesus.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Please note that this verse talks about belief in Jesus and it says nothing about Jesus dying for our sins.
That Jesus died for our sins is a Christian doctrine, an add-on.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus predicted that he would die on the cross it's not an add on. The Old Testament mentions that the Messiah would die for our sins. It's not a doctrine added by Christians. Job lived before Jesus and he mentioned that he had a Redeemer. Job's beliefs about the Messiah were more Christian than Jewish.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

InvestigateTruth said:
We need more than one Jesus, because that Jesus was crucified and died and His soul left this world forever and cannot come back again to this world. So, someone else who is like Him, must have come to fulfill the End Time Prophecies.

Since Jesus didn't always live in this world, he could return to it after his death if he wanted to.

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
Jesus predicted that he would die on the cross it's not an add on. The Old Testament mentions that the Messiah would die for our sins. It's not a doctrine added by Christians. Job lived before Jesus and he mentioned that he had a Redeemer. Job's beliefs about the Messiah were more Christian than Jewish.

I have no problem with Jesus dying for our sins, what I have a problem with is Adam and Eve and original sin, that all of humanity inherited the sins of Adam and Eve so they needed Jesus to die for them. That would be terribly unjust.

We all sin, but Jesus knew nothing of original sin so that was an add-on by Christianity.

InvestigateTruth · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
Since Jesus didn't always live in this world, he could return to it after his death if he wanted to.

Jesus was born from the womb of Mary. Before His birth Jesus did not exist. The one who always existed is God.
When Jesus said, I came down from Heaven, He was not talking, but it was God who was speaking through Jesus.

Thus, when God wanted to come down, He made Jesus appear from the womb of Mary. Then Spirit of God manifested in the person of Jesus, and the Word was with us. Once Jesus was crucified and died, His soul left the World, thus the Spirit of God which was manifested in the soul of Jesus left this world.
Jesus physical body died, and no more exists, and His soul cannot come back to this world. But Spirit of God can return. Thus, God made Bahaullah appear from the womb of His mother and Manifested Himself in the Person of Bahaullah. Therefore the Spirit of God was with us another time, and that is, the Return of Christ. For Christ was not the body of Jesus, but was the Spirit of God.

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
Since Jesus didn't always live in this world, he could return to it after his death if he wanted to.

The same Jesus could only return to this world if His soul was reincarnated in another body, but reincarnation is not taught in the Bible..... So what actually happened is that the Spirit of Jesus returned in a different man who had a different body and a different name, Baha'u'llah.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

InvestigateTruth said:
Jesus was born from the womb of Mary. Before His birth Jesus did not exist. The one who always existed is God.
When Jesus said, I came down from Heaven, He was not talking, but it was God who was speaking through Jesus.

Thus, when God wanted to come down, He made Jesus appear from the womb of Mary. Then Spirit of God manifested in the person of Jesus, and the Word was with us. Once Jesus was crucified and died, His soul left the World, thus the Spirit of God which was manifested in the soul of Jesus left this world.
Jesus physical body died, and no more exists, and His soul cannot come back to this world. But Spirit of God can return. Thus, God made Bahaullah appear from the womb of His mother and Manifested Himself in the Person of Bahaullah. Therefore the Spirit of God was with us another time, and that is, the Return of Christ. For Christ was not the body of Jesus, but was the Spirit of God.

Jesus being the firstborn of all creation doesn't contradict Jesus being God. It actually supports Jesus being God. It means that Jesus is God because he created and died for everyone.

Jesus Christ: The Eternal Maker of all Created Things

Jesus is Firstborn because he is the Creator, Sustainer, and Redeemer of all creation, the very Heir and Ruler.

Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are His offspring.'

What do you think about Islamic beliefs about the virgin birth of Jesus?

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
The Old Testament was progressive revelation. How does this support the New Testament also being progressive revelation?

Yes, the Old Testament was progressive revelation since more than one Messenger of God is revealed in the Old Testament. The reason that the New Testament was part of progressive revelation is because Jesus brought a new revelation from God.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
The same Jesus could only return to this world if His soul was reincarnated in another body, but reincarnation is not taught in the Bible..... So what actually happened is that the Spirit of Jesus returned in a different man who had a different body and a different name, Baha'u'llah.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Why could Jesus only return if His soul was reincarnated in another body? Isn't returning in the body of a different person reincarnation? The new name in Revelation is a reference to when we grow in God, we change as people.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Yes, the Old Testament was progressive revelation since more than one Messenger of God is revealed in the Old Testament. The reason that the New Testament was part of progressive revelation is because Jesus brought a new revelation from God.

How are the teachings of Jesus progressive revelation? Are you referring to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
Why could Jesus only return if His soul was reincarnated in another body?

How else could the soul of Jesus return and walk the earth?

Skywalker said:
Isn't returning in the body of a different person reincarnation?

Yes it is.

Skywalker said:
The new name in Revelation is a reference to when we grow in God, we change as people.

That interpretation makes no sense to me.

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
How are the teachings of Jesus progressive revelation?

They are progressive revelation because the teachings and the mission of Jesus were different from the teachings and mission of Moses, and it was a progression for humanity.

Skywalker said:
Are you referring to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

Maybe it correlates to those Covenants but that was not what I was referring to.

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
How else could the soul of Jesus return and walk the earth?

Yes it is.

That interpretation makes no sense to me.

Jesus returned in glory after His Resurrection without reincarnation.

So you're saying Jesus reincarnated.

When we grow in God, we change from our mistakes. How does that interpenetration not make sense?

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
They are progressive revelation because the teachings and the mission of Jesus were different from the teachings and mission of Moses, and it was a progression for humanity.

Maybe it correlates to those Covenants but that was not what I was referring to.

Do you think that the Messiah would come to teach us how to live?

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
Jesus returned in glory after His Resurrection without reincarnation.
So you're saying Jesus reincarnated.

No I am not saying that. I do not believe that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead and walked around the earth, but it is possible that what the people saw was His spiritual body that returned from heaven and Jesus made it appear just like His physical body, since Jesus could do miracles.

Skywalker said:
When we grow in God, we change from our mistakes. How does that interpenetration not make sense?

I agree that when we grow in God, we change from our mistakes, but that is not what the verses say.

Trailblazer · Dec 13, 2020

Skywalker said:
Do you think that the Messiah would come to teach us how to live?

Yes, absolutely.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. ” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
No I am not saying that. I do not believe that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead and walked around the earth, but it is possible that what the people saw was His spiritual body that returned from heaven and Jesus made it appear just like His physical body, since Jesus could do miracles.

I agree that when we grow in God, we change from our mistakes, but that is not what the verses say.

Whats the difference between the physical and spiritual body of Jesus resurrecting? The Old Testament talks about Jesus resurrecting from the dead. Why cant the physical body of Jesus rise from the dead? God is omnipotent.

The new name in that verse is a reference to growing in God. Why is God going to give us a white stone with a new name? | GotQuestions.org

Why is God going to give us a white stone with a new name?

Question: "Why is God going to give us a white stone with a new name (Revelation 2:17)?"

Answer: In the Bible, there is only one reference to God giving us a white stone with a new name: “To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it” (Revelation 2:17).

The meaning of the white stone is a mystery to Bible scholars. However, several interpretations have been offered:

• In ancient Greece, jury members would cast a white stone to signify an acquittal, whereas a black stone proclaimed the defendant guilty. The weakness of this interpretation is that the stones cast in the courts did not have names inscribed on them.

• A small object called a “tessera,” made of wood, stone, clay or bone, conveyed special privileges to its owner. The ancient Romans used tesserae as tokens of admittance to events in the arena. However, tesserae did not have to be white, and the durability of the materials used is questionable.

• A white stone was often used as an amulet or charm. However, this custom was associated with sorcery, so it would be odd if the Bible used it as a symbol of salvation.

• Another interpretation has to do with the building material used during the time John wrote Revelation. Important buildings were commonly made of white marble, including the temple of Asclepius in Pergamum (the city of the church Jesus is addressing in Revelation 2:17). In front of the temple were white marble pillars engraved with the names of people supposedly healed by the god. One problem with this interpretation is that the Greek word used in this verse, psephon properly means “pebble,” not “stone.”

• One of the better-accepted explanations of the white stone has to do with the high priest’s breastplate, which contained twelve stones. Each of these stones had the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel engraved on it (Exodus 28:21). As he ministered in the temple, the high priest bore the names of God’s people into God’s presence. In the same way, the “white stone” with the believer’s name written on it could be a reference to our standing in God’s presence.

• Another widely held explanation suggests that the white stone may be a translucent precious stone such as a diamond. The word translated “white” in Revelation 2:17 is leukos and can also mean “brilliant, bright.” This interpretation holds that on the stone is written the name of Christ, not the name of the believer. Revelation mentions that the name of Christ is written on the foreheads of the saints (Revelation 3:12; Revelation 14:1, and Revelation 14:20).

The best theory regarding the meaning of the white stone probably has to do with the ancient Roman custom of awarding white stones to the victors of athletic games. The winner of a contest was awarded a white stone with his name inscribed on it. This served as his “ticket” to a special awards banquet. According to this view, Jesus promises the overcomers entrance to the eternal victory celebration in heaven. The “new name” most likely refers to the Holy Spirit’s work of conforming believers to the holiness of Christ (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 3:10).

Skywalker · Dec 13, 2020

Trailblazer said:
They are progressive revelation because the teachings and the mission of Jesus were different from the teachings and mission of Moses, and it was a progression for humanity.

Maybe it correlates to those Covenants but that was not what I was referring to.

I used the word progressive revelation about the Covenants because the New Covenant is related to the Old Covenant and the New Testament is related to Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah.

Christianity vs Baha'i

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