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Christianity vs Baha'i

Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
What are we to see?

The same Spirit returned, the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is life.

Regards Tony
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The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, was first sent at Pentecost, and continues to be sent as an invisible spiritual gift to those baptised into Jesus Christ.

The return of the Messiah is not the same as the giving of the promised Holy Spirit.

Work this one out!
'Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterwards came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.' [The words of Jesus , Matthew 25:1-12]
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, was first sent at Pentecost, and continues to be sent as an invisible spiritual gift to those baptised into Jesus Christ.

The return of the Messiah is not the same as the giving of the promised Holy Spirit.

Work this one out!
'Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterwards came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.' [The words of Jesus , Matthew 25:1-12]
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What verse in the Old Testament is most direct when talking about the second coming of the Messiah?
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
One of the reasons that I believe Baha'u'llah is a false messiah, or false prophet, is that the Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures connect 'my servant David' [the future messiah of Ezekiel] to both the role of 'suffering servant' and Judge.

The story of David gives us many clues as to the life of the future 'suffering servant' and Messiah. David was the son of Jesse, and was born in Bethlehem. At about the age of thirty, David was anointed by Samuel the prophet [1 Samuel 16:13], after which he received the Spirit [Compare Luke 3:22,23]. He was sent for by Saul and became his armour bearer [Ephesians 6:12-17] and musician [1 Samuel 16:21], shortly after which he defeats Goliath. Jonathan loves him, but Saul envies him, and tries to kill David, who is forced to flee. When Saul is killed in battle David becomes king of Judah, later to become king over all Israel. David reigns 33 years at Jerusalem, and 7 additional years in Hebron, over all Israel.

It's no surprise that Jesus uses the metaphor of a shepherd to describe himself. David was 'taken from the sheep cote'. Read John chapter 10! Then compare this with Ezekiel chapter 34. There can be no mistaking the one shepherd of the flock. The Messiah has to be of the tribe of Judah, and from the line of David.

I would now like to show you a passage from Isaiah that makes a powerful case for linking the 'suffering servant' to the Judge.

Isaiah 61:1-3.'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.'

This passage of scripture is applied to the Messiah as the one whom 'the Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon' [as shown in Isaiah 11 and 42].

To confirm that this passage is intended for the Messiah, read Luke 4:16-22. But where does Jesus finish his reading? [verse 19]

Can you see? The one Messiah specified in Isaiah does not complete his mission in one go. The day of wrath (vengeance) is left for the future, but is to be completed by the same Messiah.
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In our view, same Person has returned. Bahais believe Bahaullah is the return of the same person, albeit spiritually. I dont believe in literal interpretation of scriptures. Bahaullah was a descendant of Jesse. Jesus was not, and that is a sign.
Bahaullah said the Father has come, Jesus did not say that.
It is written in Ezekiel prophecies that the Glory of the God of Israel comes from the way of East. This is literally fulfilled as Bahaullah is the Glory of God, and He came to Israel from the city of Akka (acer) which is located east of Israel.
The Bahai center is established on the month Carmel, which in our view is the fulfillment of prophecies

"it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God." Isaiah 35:2

When Abdulbaha reached Lebanon, "the glory of Lebanon was given", and when Carmel and Sharon were glorified by the footsteps of Baha'u'llah, they saw the Glory of God.
Bahaullah literally means Glory of God in Arabic.
 
InvestigateTruth

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
I'll send a fuller account tomorrow.

The biological bit comes through Mary [Luke's account] whilst the royal line comes through Joseph [Matthew's account]. The unity of the two fulfils scripture.
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I have looked at Luke. It only gives genealogy of Joseph. Some Christians try to make that as Mary's genealogy!
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
InvestigateTruth said:
In our view, same Person has returned. Bahais believe Bahaullah is the return of the same person, albeit spiritually. I dont believe in literal interpretation of scriptures. Bahaullah was a descendant of Jesse. Jesus was not, and that is a sign.
Bahaullah said the Father has come, Jesus did not say that.
It is written in Ezekiel prophecies that the Glory of the God of Israel comes from the way of East. This is literally fulfilled as Bahaullah is the Glory of God, and He came to Israel from the city of Akka (acer) which is located east of Israel.
The Bahai center is established on the month Carmel, which in our view is the fulfillment of prophecies

"it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God." Isaiah 35:2

When Abdulbaha reached Lebanon, "the glory of Lebanon was given", and when Carmel and Sharon were glorified by the footsteps of Baha'u'llah, they saw the Glory of God.
Bahaullah literally means Glory of God in Arabic.
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There are quite a few discrepancies here. You say you don't believe in the literal interpretation of scripture, yet you believe that Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Jesse. Is that not a literal interpretation?

Jesus was a descendant of Jesse, through David.

The glory of God is his presence, and Jesus Christ is the greatest presence of all.
'And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.' [Rev. 1:5,6]
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
There are a number of pretty descriptive accounts. One is Zechariah 14:4,5.
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Why do some Christians who believe in the Second Coming of Jesus say that its not clearly taught in the Old Testament? Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

The idea that the Messiah would come once to suffer and again to reign is not clearly taught in the Old Testament, although the doctrine is completely consistent with Old Testament teaching. Further, the second coming resolves some of the apparently contradictory teachings about the Messiah in the Old Testament.
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CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
InvestigateTruth said:
Muhammad got it from Christians source. But, Muhammad did not study Christians sources. He was a Manifestation of God, and had innate knowledge without having to learn from anyone.
Why do you change the subject though? Let's really talk about Abdulbaha when and where was He learning Bible, if He was at all?
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So Baha'u'llah and Muhammad didn't have to read the Bible. Plus Muhammad got a story about clay birds that wasn't in the Bible. They just got it differently fed into their heads. But Abdul Baha' is not a manifestation. But for Baha'is he had innate knowledge also. Must be nice.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
I do believe it, but it really does not matter, as it is just a Bible interpretation and it has no bearing on who the Bab and Baha'u'llah actually were.
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It is Abdul Baha saying that? And it doesn't matter? Okay, I'll take just as one man's whacked out interpretation. Woes are not manifestations. They are bad things coming.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
There is absolutely no logical reason why I cannot interpret some of the Bible literally and other parts metaphorically and it is obvious to me which verses are literal and which are metaphorical.
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So Daniel in the lion's den? Like his friends in the furnace? Like Moses' cane turning into a snake? Like the 10 plagues on Egypt? Like the parting of the seas? Like Jesus walking on water? Like Jonah being swallowed by a fish? Like the Sun stopping in the sky? Like Samson getting his power because he had long hair? Like Jesus being born without his mother having had sex with a man?

Yes, all those but one Baha'is can easily say are not literally true. But one of the easiest to blow off as being metaphorical, the virgin birth, Baha'is do believe? Please don't tell me how you think that is scientifically possible and makes perfect sense. I still think it would make more sense and be easier if Baha'is just said the whole Bible is mythology.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
The resurrection of Jesus is mentioned in the Tanakh. Resurrection: Rabbinic Judaism, Hebrew Scripture and the New Testament

As we approach Christmas, the fact that we can still commemorate the birth of Christ, should be a reminder of who is in control. God’s plan is moving towards the climatic promises of The book of Revelation. We as believers are able to reflect back the character of Christ as we live our daily experiences. The fact that God chose to have His son provide the basis for any and every human being having a firm, unbreakable and eternal relationship with Him, was the greatest act of love ever exhibited.
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As we approach the day in which Jesus was probably not born on? But the "climatic" promises of Revelation? That I agree with you about... To think that Baha'is believe all those things prophesied in Revelation already happened more than 150 years ago?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
Why would that matter? I would never believe a man rose from the dead no matter what, because it is patently absurd, Imo.
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And 2000 years ago you would have known that? There's Christians today that probably claim they died and came back to life. Oh, again, the virgin birth isn't patently absurd? Make it all metaphorical. Why mess around?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
Mary would have taken Jesus to the temple when he was 8 days old, for circumcision, and again after 33 days for her purification. See Leviticus 12:3,4. This indicates that Mary and Joseph stayed in Bethlehem for some time after the birth of Jesus. The shepherds paid their visit before circumcision, but the wise men of the East did not appear until later because when they did find Jesus he was found in a house, not a stable.
It was the information provided by the Magi, the wise men, that caused Herod the Great to send out troops to kill all the infants under two in Bethlehem. But warned by an angel, Joseph and Mary took Jesus to Egypt, where they stayed until the death of Herod. They then returned to Nazareth.
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Doesn't Luke have them leaving Jerusalem and going back to Nazareth? And where in Matthew does he have them going to Jerusalem at all? I see no reason for the trip to Egypt except to make "out of Egypt I called my son" a prophesy about Jesus.
 
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