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Sign of the prophet Jonah

JerryMyers

Active Member
Do you see yourself in the role of Jesus then?

Huh ??! Where did that come from?? I am just making some observations based from what was written in the Bible, but if you think Jesus faced no resistance and the Jews never questioned his teaching, then, we must be reading different Bibles.

Who are you to tell others what Jesus did or did not do? What makes you right and everyone else wrong? What would be the point of that?

I was telling others what Jesus did or did not do ??! Not really, it was more like I was telling you what Jesus really said and did not say based on what was written in your own Bible. Your inability to understand ‘figure of speech’ and took every words of Jesus literally is what stopping you from understanding Jesus.

Who is Jesus addressing at Matthew 28:19-20?...certainly not just one person.

Well, speaking of Matthew 28:19-29, do you know the consensus of even the most conservative scholars is that this baptismal formula ‘in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost’ in Matthew 28:19 was added to the original Matthew at a very late point in time, after the adoption of the trinity doctrine – that’s why you can find this baptismal formula only in Matthew 28 and nowhere else in the whole Bible. Please also note that Jesus preached the baptism of repentance. What does baptism mean to the Christians today ??

I agree that most people are trapped in the traditions of their forefathers, whether Jewish or those in Christendom....
In Christendom we see that the core of their beliefs, shared almost universally are not of biblical origin. The trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire to name a few. None of them were taught by Jesus, yet most will tell you that you can't be a Christian without those doctrines as central to the Christian faith. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Then, what does that make Christianity (or Christendom, if you like) if its following doctrines which are not of scriptural origin and never preached by Jesus ?? A false Faith created by man ??

I see that a lot of people have an issue with Paul......I do not.
For starters, if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that he inspired its writings, then if Paul was some sort of charlatan, why would he allow Paul's words to be in it? If this God has the power to create the Universe and to inspire his prophets to write scripture, how is his power lacking when it comes to what is included in his own instruction manual?

No, I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. The Bible is a compilation of various books/letters authored by many men. The Bible you have today is a mixture of truth and lies.

‘Inspired by God’ does not mean it was dictated by God. JK. Rowling was inspired by God to write the Harry Potter books, but that does not mean every words in those books are the words of God. Christians are misled by the church into believing their scriptures cannot be altered or edited because they are ‘inspired by God’ when we know in Jeremiah 8:8, God told Jeremiah to ask his people ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’. If the lying pen of the scribes has handled the scripture falsely even in Jeremiah’s time, what makes you think the scripture cannot be handled falsely by the scribes AFTER Jesus has departed ??

John 17:15-19...Jesus words...
"I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth."

You want to explain to me in context what John 17:15-19 which you quoted is about ?? Let see whether you understand Jesus’ words or not.

Jesus sent the 12 into the world and after his death and resurrection, he also appointed Saul of Tarsus, the fremst persecutor of Christians to become a "chosen vessel" to take his message to the nations.

Jesus NEVER met Paul aka Saul of Taurus, so how could he has appointed Paul ‘to become a "chosen vessel" to take his message to the nations’ ??? Another ‘teaching’ of your church??

I fail to understand how people can accuse Paul of being a false apostle. He taught nothing contrary to what Jesus had taught the other apostles. If anything he clarified many things and opened up a fuller understanding. If the apostles had God's holy spirit then why did they not expose Paul as a fraud? They accepted him as a Christian brother in the faith....and so do I.

Paul taught nothing contrary to what Jesus had taught ???! Are you that ignorant of your own Bible?? The very fact that Paul said your faith is useless if you don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead is already contradictory to Jesus’ preaching…unless you can show me from your own Bible where Jesus preached the same understanding. Frankly speaking, I fail to understand why are you in a Faith whose doctrines are central to the Faith, but, in your own words, not of biblical origin and never taught by Jesus Christ ??

Unless you understand the mechanics of the ransom and the purpose of redemption after the fall in Eden, you cannot appreciate how vital Christ's death and resurrection are for our future.

Obviously Jesus doesn’t know his ‘death and resurrection’ are vital to man’s future, else he would not have prayed earnestly to God to save him from his predicament. If he knew he was sent to die for the sin of mankind, he would not be praying to God to save him but he would be thanking God for allowing the Romans to crucify him and left him hanging on a cross. I supposed you also believe the Jews who plotted to kill Jesus because they find his teaching a threat to their own traditional belief are now rewarded in God’s heaven for their parts in the ‘killing’ of Jesus !!

The 12 appreciated that Christ had died and was resurrected and they wrote about it.
All four Gospel accounts tell of the fulfillment of Jesus’ words that he would be raised on the third day. The apostle Matthew reports that first an angel appeared and announced Christ’s resurrection to women two of whom Matthew named, that Jesus later appeared to these and that still later Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee. (Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-8)
The physician Luke additionally tells of the resurrected Jesus comforting two of his disciples on the way to Emmaus, of another appearance to his disciples in Jerusalem and of his disciples seeing him borne up into heaven out of their sight. (Luke 24:1-53)

Problem is - there are discrepancies in the ‘empty tomb’ story. Mark gospel said there was 1 man, Luke gospel said there were 2 men, Matthew gospel said there was 1 angel accompanied by a violent earthquake and John gospel did not even mention anything about angels. So, one has to wonder whether the angel/men story was fabricated by those who reported that story to the author of the respective gospel. Surely all 4 versions of the angles/men in the ‘empty tomb’ story can be fabricated, but, certainly not all 4 versions of that story can be true. It definitely would not hold in today’s court of law.

And not to mention, none of the disciples, including Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus met after the supposedly ‘resurrection’ reacted as if they are seeing someone who was just crucified and rose from the dead… hmmm, maybe people rising from the dead is a common sight in those days…

Also, when choosing a successor to Judas, Peter stipulated that it had to be one who had been “a witness with us of his resurrection.” (Acts 1:20-22)
Did the apostles lie?
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According to the Bible, there are no witness to Jesus’ resurrection. Jesus was laid down alone in the tomb, no one accompanied him in the tomb and when Mary Magdalene came on Sunday morning, the tomb was already empty. Did the Scripture lie ?

The "Christianity" you speak of is nothing of the sort.....it is "Christendom" and never the twain shall meet.

So, what exactly is ‘Christianity’ and what exactly is ‘Christendom’ based on your understanding ??


But I have no idea where you are getting your information from, because it is not from scripture.

So, you are telling me 1 Corinthians 15:4 - “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faithis not from the scripture ?? OK, noted.


If you believe that the Bible is genuinely the word of God and not from men, you have to take it all as gospel...not just the bits that agree with what you want to believe. Its either ALL God's word...or none of it is.

AS I said erlier, I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe the Bible you have today is a mixture of truth and lies. The authors of the 4 gospels NEVER claimed the words they wrote are words of God, BUT, they did claim that the gospels are written ACCORDING TO Mark, Matthew, Luke and John respectively, and you can find that at the beginning of each gospel.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Huh ??! Where did that come from??

Well, you did say..."Hmmm… I am sure Jesus faced the same resistance and the Jews probably asked him the same questions about his teachings."

Are you likening yourself to Jesus Christ? Are your own views on a par with Jesus' views? I cannot for the life of me see any resemblance. All I see is you interpreting scripture to suit yourself. Who else believes what you believe? Can you tell me?

I am just making some observations based from what was written in the Bible, but if you think Jesus faced no resistance and the Jews never questioned his teaching, then, we must be reading different Bibles.

But you aren't making observations based on what the Bible (as a whole) says. You are taking bits and pieces at random and making up your own story. Is that the way God operates?

Well, speaking of Matthew 28:19-20, do you know the consensus of even the most conservative scholars is that this baptismal formula ‘in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost’ in Matthew 28:19 was added to the original Matthew at a very late point in time, after the adoption of the trinity doctrine – that’s why you can find this baptismal formula only in Matthew 28 and nowhere else in the whole Bible. Please also note that Jesus preached the baptism of repentance. What does baptism mean to the Christians today ??

Who said? Anyone can quote random scholars if they agree with something you want to believe.
I have no reason whatsoever to believe that 'the great commission' was given to all Christians. It's the theme of Jesus entire ministry. (Matthew 10:11-14) The Christian message was understanding the role of the Father, the son and the holy spirit. (There is no such thing as a holy ghost.)

I take the word of scholars who agree with what the whole of scripture teaches. I do not rely on any writings that came out after the first century when the Bible canon was closed. The early church "fathers" were already heading off track in their teachings. There is no point relying on them because the foretold apostasy was already underway.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7...
"And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way."

That restraint was the apostles, the last of whom (John) died at the close of the first century......then the apostasy had no impediments.....once they were "out of the way" satan could do to Christianity exactly what he did to Judaism. They led people away from God by their errors.

Then, what does that make Christianity (or Christendom, if you like) if its following doctrines which are not of scriptural origin and never preached by Jesus ?? A false Faith created by man ??

It makes Christendom the most reprehensible part of "Babylon the great"....the weeds of Jesus' parable and a product of the apostasy foretold by the apostles. We are told to remove ourselves from her before God destroys her, otherwise we will go down with her. (Revelation 18:4-5)

No, I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. The Bible is a compilation of various books/letters authored by many men. The Bible you have today is a mixture of truth and lies.

And who decides which is which....you? You have some special gift that allows you to determine what scripture is inspired and what isn't? Do you know how many people there are who claim to have this gift? Can they all be right when they all have different ideas? You tell me? Unless you have a global brotherhood, who in these last days, all believe as you do, and who meet together regularly for worship as the first Christians did, then you cannot possibly have the truth. You just basically have your own religion. What is that worth?

You want to explain to me in context what John 17:15-19 which you quoted is about ?? Let see whether you understand Jesus’ words or not.

It is Jesus' prayer to his Father concerning the ones who would carry on the work that he started. He was alluding to their role as kings and priests in heaven, ruling with him in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Yet they did not then know the full extent of what he had told them.

John 16:4-12...
"I did not tell you these things at first, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to the One who sent me; yet not one of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have told you these things, grief has filled your hearts. 7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. 8 And when that one comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment. . . . .

12 I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now."


Jesus NEVER met Paul aka Saul of Taurus, so how could he has appointed Paul ‘to become a "chosen vessel" to take his message to the nations’ ??? Another ‘teaching’ of your church??

Jesus most certainly met Saul of Tarsus, not in the flesh but in the spirit. Saul was educated by the resurrected Christ, not by the other apostles. His teaching was first hand, not second hand. I have already explained why he was chosen.....you can believe whatever you wish. If Paul's writings were not supposed to be part of scripture, then why did God have them included? Was God not powerful enough to decide what he wanted in his own guidebook? What kind of weak god do you worship?

Paul taught nothing contrary to what Jesus had taught ???! Are you that ignorant of your own Bible?? The very fact that Paul said your faith is useless if you don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead is already contradictory to Jesus’ preaching…unless you can show me from your own Bible where Jesus preached the same understanding. Frankly speaking, I fail to understand why are you in a Faith whose doctrines are central to the Faith, but, in your own words, not of biblical origin and never taught by Jesus Christ ??

I believe it is you who is ignorant of what the Bible teaches. The apostles were all close companions of Jesus during his ministry, but did not grasp the meaning of his death and resurrection until their anointing with holy spirit at Pentecost. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, they thought that he was going to bring about the Kingdom on earth at that time. (Acts 1:6)

Paul became a disciple post resurrection, and with the benefit of holy spirit as his guide he fully understood, from the Jewish perspective why Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus' death paid the price for the sin of mankind as he himself stated, but his resurrection was vital in order to present the value of his sacrifice to God in heaven. Paul paid dearly for his defection from Judaism, but he chose to remain faithful to his God, and also to his teacher.

The apostle Peter wrote...
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

In this spirit body, he ascended directly into God’s presence in heaven to present to the God of justice the full value of his perfect human sacrifice for the redemption of obedient mankind.

As Paul explains and concurs with the rest of scripture....
"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24)

Jesus is not only our King, but also our High Priest, presenting the ultimate sacrifice of his human body before God in his grand spiritual temple to atone for the sins of all obedient mankind.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Obviously Jesus doesn’t know his ‘death and resurrection’ are vital to man’s future, else he would not have prayed earnestly to God to save him from his predicament.

Do you make these things up?
Jesus knew exactly what he was to suffer, but he could not bear to be put to death as a blasphemer.....that was unthinkable. But he gave himself over to God's will and quietly bore all the cruel treatment from both the Jews and the Romans. He did not pray to be "out of his predicament" because this was the very reason why he came to this earth in human form....to give his life....to pay for the sin that Adam left as a debt to his children.

If he knew he was sent to die for the sin of mankind, he would not be praying to God to save him but he would be thanking God for allowing the Romans to crucify him and left him hanging on a cross. I supposed you also believe the Jews who plotted to kill Jesus because they find his teaching a threat to their own traditional belief are now rewarded in God’s heaven for their parts in the ‘killing’ of Jesus !!

:facepalm: I think Jesus gave the Jewish religious leaders a fair idea of where they were headed...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves. . . . ..“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?" (Matthew 23:15; 33)

I am assuming you know what "Gehenna" is...? Clue....its not "Hades".

Surely all 4 versions of the angles/men in the ‘empty tomb’ story can be fabricated, but, certainly not all 4 versions of that story can be true. It definitely would not hold in today’s court of law.
That is the beauty of allowing four accounts of one story. Some will have the main elements in common and others will provide details that the others leave out. It is the scriptural accounts that are inspired, not the exact words. God did not dictate scripture word for word, but allowed his secretaries to use their own thoughts and language to round out one story in four different accounts.

And not to mention, none of the disciples, including Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus met after the supposedly ‘resurrection’ reacted as if they are seeing someone who was just crucified and rose from the dead… hmmm, maybe people rising from the dead is a common sight in those days…

You demonstrate no knowledge of the resurrection at all...any wonder you reject it.
Christ was not raised in the flesh, as some others were.....yet people saw him....thousands of them. He was a real flesh and bone human, as were the angels who appeared to God's servants in ancient times. They were spirit beings who materialized fleshly bodies to deliver messages from God.

God's people were forbidden to communicate with spirits, so every time a spirit being contacted a human servant of God it was always in material form, or in a dream or vision. Communicating with unseen spirits is always demonic.

According to the Bible, there are no witness to Jesus’ resurrection. Jesus was laid down alone in the tomb, no one accompanied him in the tomb and when Mary Magdalene came on Sunday morning, the tomb was already empty. Did the Scripture lie ?

Oh good grief.....thousands of people saw the resurrected Jesus. It was in the early hours of the morning when Jesus was resurrected, the women went at daybreak to prepare Jesus' body for burial, but the tomb was empty. The miraculous resurrection of Jesus, the first of its kind, was unseen by human eyes.....those resurrected to rule with Christ in his kingdom also have an unseen transformation to spirit beings. That is what it means to be 'baptized into Jesus' death'. To die in the flesh but to be raised in the spirit.

So, what exactly is ‘Christianity’ and what exactly is ‘Christendom’ based on your understanding ??

Christendom is the "weeds" of Jesus parable, which were "sown by the devil", "while men were sleeping"....planting a counterfeit form of "Christianity" that took all of Christ's teachings and basically ignored them, and inventing traditions of their own and teaching these instead. This is why I believe that Christendom is not Christianity. It does not resemble it in any way.

So, you are telling me 1 Corinthians 15:4 - “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faithis not from the scripture ?? OK, noted.

Yes it is scripture and its very true. If Christ is not raised then his sacrifice was for nothing. It was never presented at the temple....and mankind is not rescued from the sin of Adam. Jesus' death paid the price, but his resurrection delivered it to the alter in heaven.

Jesus was a spirit before he became human...after his successful mission, he returned to the spirit realm to be at his Father's side.

AS I said erlier, I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe the Bible you have today is a mixture of truth and lies. The authors of the 4 gospels NEVER claimed the words they wrote are words of God, BUT, they did claim that the gospels are written ACCORDING TO Mark, Matthew, Luke and John respectively, and you can find that at the beginning of each gospel.

And if you do not accept the Bible as the word of God, you just removed all basis for discussion.
Your God is some kind of teaser making us decide for ourselves what is scripture and what is not....how ridiculous! Our lives depend on his truth and you act as if he can't provide it, so you have to....:rolleyes: Do you see a problem with that?
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Well, you did say..."Hmmm… I am sure Jesus faced the same resistance and the Jews probably asked him the same questions about his teachings."

Are you likening yourself to Jesus Christ? Are your own views on a par with Jesus' views? I cannot for the life of me see any resemblance. All I see is you interpreting scripture to suit yourself. Who else believes what you believe? Can you tell me?

But you aren't making observations based on what the Bible (as a whole) says. You are taking bits and pieces at random and making up your own story. Is that the way God operates?


Making an observation on what the Bible (as a whole) says about Jesus’ preaching and how the Jews reacted to his teaching does not mean likening oneself to the man, Jesus. God gave man the faculty of intelligence to make logical and rational observations on His Words and the words of His prophets as recorded in the scripture. But if you cannot even tell when Jesus was speaking figuratively and when he was speaking literally, then, I can understand why you would think Jesus’ preaching has no resistance from the Jews and that he came to die for the sin of man. Sad.

Who said? Anyone can quote random scholars if they agree with something you want to believe.

I have no reason whatsoever to believe that 'the great commission' was given to all Christians. It's the theme of Jesus entire ministry. (Matthew 10:11-14) The Christian message was understanding the role of the Father, the son and the holy spirit. (There is no such thing as a holy ghost.)

It’s not about quoting random scholars simply because they agree with you, it’s about quoting notable sources or scholars who made their comments based on facts, logic, and rational thinking. Here are some of the comments from notable Christian sources:

The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923, New Testament Studies Number 5:
“…….. Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the triune form? Had Christ given such a command, it is urged, the Apostolic Church would have followed him, and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament. No such trace can be found. The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view, is this the short christological (Jesus Name) formula was (the) original, and the longer triune formula was a later development.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under “Baptism,” says:
Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.

The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus,”.

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:
It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, volume II, page 263:
The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:
It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition.

I take the word of scholars who agree with what the whole of scripture teaches.
I doubt you even understand what the whole of scripture teaches. How could you when you have admitted the doctrines which are central in your faith are not from the scriptural origin and never preached by Jesus ??

I do not rely on any writings that came out after the first century when the Bible canon was closed The early church "fathers" were already heading off track in their teachings. There is no point relying on them because the foretold apostasy was already underway.

Well, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 3, Pages 365-6, “The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century. So, unless your creditability is proven better than the Encyclopedia Britannica, why are you still relying on Matthew 28:19 when clearly that was added in the second century when the Bible cannon was already closed by the first century?? Or you just have no clue what you are talking about ??

It makes Christendom the most reprehensible part of "Babylon the great"....the weeds of Jesus' parable and a product of the apostasy foretold by the apostles. We are told to remove ourselves from her before God destroys her, otherwise we will go down with her. (Revelation 18:4-5)
So says you … and cherry-picking and ‘mix-match’ verses and passages of the Bible without having any clue what those passages mean, only demonstrate your lack of understanding of your own scripture. Oh, I forgot, why would you need to know what the scripture really said when you are following man-made doctrines which have no Biblical or scriptural origin and never taught by Jesus !

And who decides which is which....you? You have some special gift that allows you to determine what scripture is inspired and what isn't? Do you know how many people there are who claim to have this gift? Can they all be right when they all have different ideas? You tell me? Unless you have a global brotherhood, who in these last days, all believe as you do, and who meet together regularly for worship as the first Christians did, then you cannot possibly have the truth. You just basically have your own religion. What is that worth?
As I said, ‘inspired by God’ does not mean its dictated by God. Truth is what God Almighty and/or His prophets said, NOT what other people said, unless what they said echo what God or His prophets said. Then again, you don’t follow what God or what His prophets said, you just follow what other people said and that’s why you follow doctrines that are not of Biblical origin nor taught by Jesus, so what is that worth ??
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Do you make these things up?
Jesus knew exactly what he was to suffer, but he could not bear to be put to death as a blasphemer.....that was unthinkable. But he gave himself over to God's will and quietly bore all the cruel treatment from both the Jews and the Romans. He did not pray to be "out of his predicament" because this was the very reason why he came to this earth in human form....to give his life....to pay for the sin that Adam left as a debt to his children.

Do you make these things up? No?? Then back it up with the words of Jesus that he was sent to die for the sin of man OR the words of God Almighty that He sent Jesus to the world to die for the sin of man– it’s that simple.


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I think Jesus gave the Jewish religious leaders a fair idea of where they were headed...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves. . . . ..“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?" (Matthew 23:15; 33)

I am assuming you know what "Gehenna" is...? Clue....its not "Hades".

Its not about the Jewish religious leaders, its about whether Jesus knew he “was sent to die for your sin” !! Logic will tell you if he knew he was sent to die for the sin of mankind, he would not be praying to God to save him !!


That is the beauty of allowing four accounts of one story. Some will have the main elements in common and others will provide details that the others leave out. It is the scriptural accounts that are inspired, not the exact words. God did not dictate scripture word for word, but allowed his secretaries to use their own thoughts and language to round out one story in four different accounts.

That’s the stupidity of having four accounts of one story, especially when they contradict each other on the key point. Imagine 4 security guards suspected of robbing a bank vault, giving 4 different accounts on how the money went missing from the vault. One guard said when he came on Monday morning, they were confronted by one man who told them to open the vault. The second security guard said they were confronted by 2 men, the third security guard said they were confronted by one man and one woman, the fourth was just silent. So, when the four guards are brought to court, the judge said he suspected they too the money as their respective accounts contradict each other, and one of them responded “That is the beauty of having four accounts of one story…..” !! You think the judge going to be taken in by that and shut the case ??

You demonstrate no knowledge of the resurrection at all...any wonder you reject it.
Christ was not raised in the flesh, as some others were.....yet people saw him....thousands of them. He was a real flesh and bone human, as were the angels who appeared to God's servants in ancient times. They were spirit beings who materialized fleshly bodies to deliver messages from God. God's people were forbidden to communicate with spirits, so every time a spirit being contacted a human servant of God it was always in material form, or in a dream or vision. Communicating with unseen spirits is always demonic.

You demonstrate zero knowledge of the words of Jesus. Here’s the thing – if you want to know whether Jesus was crucified and killed, then, read what he said AFTER the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’, NOT what other people said. Your comments on Jesus supposedly ‘death and resurrection’ are based on assumptions and what people said, NOT what Jesus said.


Oh good grief.....thousands of people saw the resurrected Jesus. It was in the early hours of the morning when Jesus was resurrected, the women went at daybreak to prepare Jesus' body for burial, but the tomb was empty. The miraculous resurrection of Jesus, the first of its kind, was unseen by human eyes.....those resurrected to rule with Christ in his kingdom also have an unseen transformation to spirit beings. That is what it means to be 'baptized into Jesus' death'. To die in the flesh but to be raised in the spirit.

Oh good grief… Jesus preaches the baptism of repentance, NOT baptism of ‘into his death’.. who taught you that ??

After the supposedly ‘crucifixion and resurrection’, thousands of people saw Jesus alive, period.

In Luke 24:37-40, we read, "They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet”. This passage alone squashed your belief that Jesus was crucified, killed, and resurrected –

1) on his ‘crucifixion’: if he was crucified, his disciples would have seen the wound marks but they did not see any and neither did Jesus ever mention it to his disciples. It would be impossible to miss such wound marks as Jesus was supposed to be nailed to the cross by nails big enough to pierce through his hands and hold him to the cross, he was not crucified by tiny pins,

2) on his ‘death’: the fact that Jesus said ‘a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I havetells us he was telling his disciples, he did not die as it’s a universal acceptance that a ghost is always associated with the dead and no one can be a ghost if he didn’t die, and that’s what Jesus was telling his disciples that he’s not a ghost because he did not die for his disciples to think that he’s a ghost, and,

3) on his ‘resurrection’: if he did not die, then how can he be resurrected ??

And Christians believe that Jesus was showing wound marks in his hands and feet to his disciples, including to doubting Thomas, is also squashed by this Luke passage – “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet” – Luke 24:39-40 - that clearly said Jesus showed his hands and feet to his disciples to prove to them he’s not a ghost as he has flesh and bones, NOT because he has the wound marks of the ‘crucifixion’ !! So, even if Jesus own words don’t convince you that he was not crucified, killed and resurrected, then, nothing will, and you will always be lost in your blind faith.

Christendom is the "weeds" of Jesus parable, which were "sown by the devil", "while men were sleeping"....planting a counterfeit form of "Christianity" that took all of Christ's teachings and basically ignored them, and inventing traditions of their own and teaching these instead. This is why I believe that Christendom is not Christianity. It does not resemble it in any way.

Most likely that ‘weeds’ is Paul’s Christianity and the devil who sown that weed is the impostor Jesus whom Paul met on that wilderness road to Damascus. After all, Jesus did warn of the coming of false Christ who claimed to be him and we all know no one else came claiming to be Christ after Jesus had departed other than the one Paul met on that wilderness road… so, unless Jesus was talking craps or you know someone else who came after Jesus had departed, claiming to be him, I would say you are just following blindly what other people had said when you should be testing their spirits to know whether they are truly men of God or men of the devil.

Yes it is scripture and its very true. If Christ is not raised then his sacrifice was for nothing. It was never presented at the temple....and mankind is not rescued from the sin of Adam. Jesus' death paid the price, but his resurrection delivered it to the alter in heaven.
So said Paul, not God Almighty nor Jesus.

Original sin is a man-made doctrine and never preached by any prophet, including Jesus. Original sin was probably put forward to justify the false belief that Jesus must die to redeem the sin of mankind. Fact is, we do not carry over the sin of Adam by birth. When God said ‘Let’s create man in Our image’, He’s not saying He’s creating man to physically look like Him, He’ saying He’s creating man perfect (as God is perfect), or in other words, every baby born is like a new white sheet - sinless. Each man is accountable to his own sin and that’s why in ‘the Lord’s Prayer’ which Jesus taught you, he never mentioned his ‘death’ will redeem your sin, but instead he asks you to pray to God (not to him) for the forgiveness of your sin. So, go and read to understand what Jesus said as recorded in your own Bible instead of making BS comments that Jesus came to die for your sin.
Jesus was a spirit before he became human...after his successful mission, he returned to the spirit realm to be at his Father's side.

Another BS from Paul or was it from someone else ??? One thing for sure, that’s definitely not from Jesus !!

And if you do not accept the Bible as the word of God, you just removed all basis for discussion.
Your God is some kind of teaser making us decide for ourselves what is scripture and what is not....how ridiculous! Our lives depend on his truth and you act as if he can't provide it, so you have to....
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Do you see a problem with that?
There is only ONE God, so said Moses and so said Jesus. ‘One’ here means the ABSOLUTE ONE, not a ‘three in one’ God – so, there’s no such thing as ‘my God is different from your God’, there’s only ONE God.
….. and yes, God gives us the faculty of intelligence to decide what is truth and what is false. Don’t be like the Jews in Jesus’ time who were trapped in the false beliefs of their fathers and forefathers and did not use their God-gifted intelligence to see the truth in what Jesus was preaching to them, but instead they just follow blindly the traditional beliefs of their fathers and forefathers. Today, we see Christians repeating what the Jews in Jesus’ time did. that is, they now follow blindly the traditional belief of the church like Jesus is equal to God and he came to die for your sin, which is clearly not the preaching of Jesus. I know, I know, you don’t care whether it’s the preaching of Jesus or not, as long as your belief does not contradict with what the church believes. If the church is your benchmark of truth, and not God Almighty or His prophets, then, you just removed all basis of knowing the truth as the truth to you is what the church said, NOT what God Almighty and/or His prophets said.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
It is Jesus' prayer to his Father concerning the ones who would carry on the work that he started. He was alluding to their role as kings and priests in heaven, ruling with him in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Yet they did not then know the full extent of what he had told them.

Yes, but your reasons as to why Jesus was praying to God concerning his disciples was way off. Jesus was praying for his disciples as he has expectations that his disciples will continue his work, that is, preaching the word (truth) of God (Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth). For his disciples to continue his works, Jesus prayed to God to protect his disciples from evil as he expected his disciples, in continuing his work, will be faced with strong resistance just as he had too (I have given them your word and the world has hated them). So, saying “He was alluding to their role as kings and priests in heaven, ruling with him in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Yet they did not then know the full extent of what he had told them” is pure nonsense and you are NOT going to find any Christian commentary on John 17 that will relate John 17:15-17 to Revelation 20:6. Are you making up stories as you go along ??

John 16:4-12...
"I did not tell you these things at first, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to the One who sent me; yet not one of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have told you these things, grief has filled your hearts. 7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. 8 And when that one comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment. . . . .

12 I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now."

Interesting, so, who is the helper who will “give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment. . . .” ???

Jesus most certainly met Saul of Tarsus, not in the flesh but in the spirit. Saul was educated by the resurrected Christ, not by the other apostles. His teaching was first hand, not second hand. I have already explained why he was chosen.....you can believe whatever you wish. If Paul's writings were not supposed to be part of scripture, then why did God have them included? Was God not powerful enough to decide what he wanted in his own guidebook? What kind of weak god do you worship?

You sure Paul met the real Jesus on that wilderness road to Damascus ?? Two main indicators why Paul could not have met the real Jesus but he met an impostor Jesus -

One, Jesus warned his disciples of deceivers and impostors who will come after he’s gone claiming they are the Messiah/Christ. There’s no record in the Bible of anyone else who came after Jesus was gone claiming he’s the Messiah/Christ EXCEPT that ‘Jesus’ whom Paul met.

Two, Jesus said this impostor ‘Jesus’ will deceive many people. To deceive many people, you have to be a highly influential with a dominant personality and Paul is such a man and this impostor ‘Jesus’ knew this and he chose Paul so that he ca deceive many people through Paul and the rest is history.

I believe it is you who is ignorant of what the Bible teaches. The apostles were all close companions of Jesus during his ministry, but did not grasp the meaning of his death and resurrection until their anointing with holy spirit at Pentecost. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, they thought that he was going to bring about the Kingdom on earth at that time. (Acts 1:6). Paul became a disciple post resurrection, and with the benefit of holy spirit as his guide he fully understood, from the Jewish perspective why Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus' death paid the price for the sin of mankind as he himself stated, but his resurrection was vital in order to present the value of his sacrifice to God in heaven. Paul paid dearly for his defection from Judaism, but he chose to remain faithful to his God, and also to his teacher.
The apostle Peter wrote...
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."
In this spirit body, he ascended directly into God’s presence in heaven to present to the God of justice the full value of his perfect human sacrifice for the redemption of obedient mankind.
As Paul explains and concurs with the rest of scripture....
"For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24)
Jesus is not only our King, but also our High Priest, presenting the ultimate sacrifice of his human body before God in his grand spiritual temple to atone for the sins of all obedient mankind.
Stop changing lanes and respond to what I actually said, and that is, The very fact that Paul said your faith is useless if you don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead is already contradictory to Jesus’ preaching…unless you can show me from your own Bible where Jesus preached the same understanding.”. So, since you claim Paul preaching is the same as Jesus’, then show me from your own Bible where Jesus too preached that if you do not believe that he died and rose again, your faith is useless. If you cannot even show that, not only that proved Paul’s main preaching is very different from Jesus’, it also makes your claims and Paul’s words meaningless to the discussion.
 
that would seem fair enough on the surface
good point

I did stretch the details on the Jonah story
but I did so to shift perspective
after all.......a fish large enough to swallow a man
and he survived it?

and compared to a flogging that should have killed (forty lashing is a death sentence)
followed by crucifixion
and three days burial

both men should have been dead

both men were seen afterward...up and moving

Jesus promised the Jews of his time to perform the MIRACLE of Jonah. Therefore, Jesus survived by the miracle of Jonah that Jonah survived.
 
That cannot be true as Jonah was not killed to begin with. When Jesus gave the ‘sign of Jonah’, he was drawing similarities on the ‘state of existence between reality and perception’ between himself and Jonah. The similarities are:

- For 3 days and 3 nights, both Jesus and Jonah have disappeared from the public view.

- For 3 days and 3 nights, Jonah’s people have perceived he was killed and died in the sea just as for 3 days and 3 nights, the people have perceived Jesus was killed on the cross and laid dead in the tomb when the reality was, Jonah was not killed and was very much alive just as Jesus was not killed and was very much alive.

- Jonah then appeared to his people very much alive proving he was not killed when he was thrown into the rough sea and swallowed by a big fish just as Jesus appeared to his people very much alive, proving he was indeed saved by God from a humiliating death on the cross.

In other words, the sign of Jonah was not about Jesus’ resurrection, but the sign of Jonah was about his ‘state of existence - between reality and perception’. Jonah, by the Will of God, was saved from what would be a certain death just as God had saved Jesus from being crucified of which would be a certain death too.

Biblically, Jonah survived because Jonah 2:7 says "when my life was ebbing away, I remembered you" and the dead do not remember God according to Psalms 6:5.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?
Jesus is the Son of God. A son of David is not a Son of God nor is he the Christ although he claims he will win war. There is no male bloodline in Jesus from David.
Paul refused to believe in a virgin birth of Jesus so Paul claims Jesus is a son of Abraham/David even though Jesus denied it in John chapter 8..
The Son of Man is a military commander in the end of Days war and is not Jesus.
The 3 days and nights represent the time spent during the ceasefire after WW3 starts when world leaders conference to see what nations will receive aid, what is needed by nations, what are the casualties, how bad was the destruction, etc. This is the HEART of the Earth, where compassion and mercy and generosity is desperately needed by all.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Jesus is the Son of God. A son of David is not a Son of God nor is he the Christ although he claims he will win war. There is no male bloodline in Jesus from David.
Paul refused to believe in a virgin birth of Jesus so Paul claims Jesus is a son of Abraham/David even though Jesus denied it in John chapter 8..
The Son of Man is a military commander in the end of Days war and is not Jesus.
The 3 days and nights represent the time spent during the ceasefire after WW3 starts when world leaders conference to see what nations will receive aid, what is needed by nations, what are the casualties, how bad was the destruction, etc. This is the HEART of the Earth, where compassion and mercy and generosity is desperately needed by all.
Nope, Jesus is NOT the S/son of God, that is, he is NOT God the Son… or maybe I should ask you what exactly do you mean when you said Jesus is the Son of God? If you mean by saying Jesus is the Son of God, it means Jesus is God the Son, then you are greatly misled and mistaken as according to your own scripture, Jesus himself denied that.

….and where did you get that ‘The 3 days and nights represent the time spent during the ceasefire after WW3 starts…..’ nonsense?? Why would Jesus give a sign of an event that will happen thousands of years in the future when NONE of the Jews to whom the sign was given, will still be around??!!
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Nope, Jesus is NOT the S/son of God, that is, he is NOT God the Son… or maybe I should ask you what exactly do you mean when you said Jesus is the Son of God? If you mean by saying Jesus is the Son of God, it means Jesus is God the Son, then you are greatly misled and mistaken as according to your own scripture, Jesus himself denied that.

….and where did you get that ‘The 3 days and nights represent the time spent during the ceasefire after WW3 starts…..’ nonsense?? Why would Jesus give a sign of an event that will happen thousands of years in the future when NONE of the Jews to whom the sign was given, will still be around??!!
Jesus said he is not God and I believe Jesus. Many people claim to understand the Bible but do not when they say Jesus is God. They base their belief on Jesus saying God and he are one. But Jesus also said a man and wife are one and said Jesus and his followers are one so in no way is Jesus actually God. Jesus said he is the son of God and I believe that.
By your example insert yourself and your father. How does that sound? Jerry's father the Jerry?
Do you believe calling bread, "doctrine" or wine, "religion" or a nation a "tree" is nonsense? It is symbolism like a literary code that makes a parable, a story that did not actually happen but reflects an event that does happen. The Bible is written for the last generation on this planet because only near the end can the understanding of the symbolism make sense. No one would know what a Seraphim is until one is built. The Bible even states that greater understanding will happen near the end.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
Jesus said he is not God and I believe Jesus. Many people claim to understand the Bible but do not when they say Jesus is God. They base their belief on Jesus saying God and he are one. But Jesus also said a man and wife are one and said Jesus and his followers are one so in no way is Jesus actually God. Jesus said he is the son of God and I believe that.
By your example insert yourself and your father. How does that sound? Jerry's father the Jerry?
Do you believe calling bread, "doctrine" or wine, "religion" or a nation a "tree" is nonsense? It is symbolism like a literary code that makes a parable, a story that did not actually happen but reflects an event that does happen. The Bible is written for the last generation on this planet because only near the end can the understanding of the symbolism make sense. No one would know what a Seraphim is until one is built. The Bible even states that greater understanding will happen near the end.
Well, you have NOT really explained your understanding of the term ‘Son of God’ as applied to Jesus. Yet when you made claims such as ‘Jesus is the Son of God’, you sounded as if you believe Jesus is God the Son but according to you yourself, you don’t believe Jesus is God, so your clarification of your understanding of the term ‘Son of God’ as applied to Jesus is really much appreciated. For the record, I don’t believe Jesus is God nor do I believe he is God the Son.

We said a statement is a nonsense when that statement is totally out of sync with the context of the passage and trust me, saying ‘The 3 days and nights represent the time spent during the ceasefire after WW3 starts….’ in reference to the sign of Jonah IS nonsense!! The sign of Jonah was given to the Jews of THAT time, NOT to generations thousands of years in the future! As I said - Why would Jesus give a sign to the Jews of an event that will happen thousands of years in the future when none, of the Jews of his time, will still be around??!! What good is that to the Jews and what did Jesus expect the Jews to do with the sign of Jonah which is expected to unfold thousands of years in the future, that is, if one is to follow your statement that ‘The 3 days and nights represent the time spent during the ceasefire after WW3 starts….’??

…And where in the Bible did it says ‘it is written for the last generation on this planet’ and ‘greater understanding will happen near the end’???
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”’. – Mathew 12:38-40

In giving ‘the sign of the prophet Jonah’, was Jesus relating to (A) his future ‘crucifixion, burial and resurrection’ as what the Christians believe OR (B) a future event where he was not killed nor was he crucified, but ‘was made to appear so as what the Muslims believe ?? Whichever you tend to lean to (A or B), where are your scriptural proofs to support your belief ?

A sign is different from a symbol. A sign is something you can see with your eyes; stop sign. It does not require much in the way of thinking. A symbol, on the other hand, is a type of 3-D concept, that requires logic and intuition; more thinking than just the eyes. Jesus spoke in parables which are symbols. But he did say a single sign would occur, connected to his resurrection; for the eyes, only.

A sign only has to appeal to the eyes. It does not have to go as deep, in term of the intellect, as a symbol. The parallel between Jonah and the whale only has to match superficially to the eyes, but not necessarily in all the internal details that are not seen. Jonah was never crucified and Jesus did not enter a whale. But both reappear from what should have been terminal situations, in three days. No thinking required.

Jesus was the son of a carpenter. He was about 30 years old when he died and was resurrected. He was also considered a drunk and glutton, since he liked to go out to eat and party with friends.

These bible data suggests that Jesus was a very fit young man due to his physical carpenter job and his young age; at the prime of a male. Carpentry was also a good paying job, so Jesus, who was not married, could afford to go out and eat well each day. This diet would help to enhance his health and the needs of his prime of life, athletic nature.

Jesus was more than likely very solid and very durable, going into his fate of torture. He prepared himself with a type of healthy athletic capacitance and endurance. It is not uncommon for someone; solider of extreme training and durability, to be beaten, shot and left for dead, only to awaken again. Jesus was beaten to what appeared to be dead, but was up and about, in three days of coma.

Inside the whale and inside the tomb, both Jonah and Jesus could not seen as a sign; eyes need to see but were not allowed to see. But both men reappear, as a sign to see, in what should have been terminal situations for most people. This recovery from certain death, could also be due to each Jonah and Jesus having help from divine places; rapid recovery from a near death experience.
 

JerryMyers

Active Member
A sign is different from a symbol. A sign is something you can see with your eyes; stop sign. It does not require much in the way of thinking. A symbol, on the other hand, is a type of 3-D concept, that requires logic and intuition; more thinking than just the eyes. Jesus spoke in parables which are symbols. But he did say a single sign would occur, connected to his resurrection; for the eyes, only.

A sign only has to appeal to the eyes. It does not have to go as deep, in term of the intellect, as a symbol. The parallel between Jonah and the whale only has to match superficially to the eyes, but not necessarily in all the internal details that are not seen. Jonah was never crucified and Jesus did not enter a whale. But both reappear from what should have been terminal situations, in three days. No thinking required.

Jesus was the son of a carpenter. He was about 30 years old when he died and was resurrected. He was also considered a drunk and glutton, since he liked to go out to eat and party with friends.

These bible data suggests that Jesus was a very fit young man due to his physical carpenter job and his young age; at the prime of a male. Carpentry was also a good paying job, so Jesus, who was not married, could afford to go out and eat well each day. This diet would help to enhance his health and the needs of his prime of life, athletic nature.

Jesus was more than likely very solid and very durable, going into his fate of torture. He prepared himself with a type of healthy athletic capacitance and endurance. It is not uncommon for someone; solider of extreme training and durability, to be beaten, shot and left for dead, only to awaken again. Jesus was beaten to what appeared to be dead, but was up and about, in three days of coma.

Inside the whale and inside the tomb, both Jonah and Jesus could not seen as a sign; eyes need to see but were not allowed to see. But both men reappear, as a sign to see, in what should have been terminal situations for most people. This recovery from certain death, could also be due to each Jonah and Jesus having help from divine places; rapid recovery from a near death experience.
Well, no one is saying a sign is like a symbol and a sign does not necessarily have to be a physical sign (like a stop sign) or as you said, ‘only has to appeal to the eyes’. Sudden loss of smell (which you cannot see) could be a sign one has been affected by Covid-19.

A ‘sign’ is a form of a hint or a clue to what had really happened which was not obvious and often contrary to the common belief of what happened. Likewise, a sign could also be an indication to what was about to happen, for example, the sudden appearance of dark clouds could be a sign of an impending thunderstorm.

The sign of Jonah as given by Jesus was obviously a hint/clue to what had really happened to him. Jesus, who likes to talk figuratively rather than literally or directly, was obviously trying to draw the similarity between what happened to Jonah with what happened to him.

It’s a common belief that Jesus was killed but in giving the sign of Jonah, Jesus is hinting that he was NOT killed just as it is an expected reaction and belief that Jonah was killed when he was swallowed by the big fish. For 3 days and 3 nights, both Jesus and Jonah were out of public sight and the common belief was that both are dead. Jesus prayed to God to save him from the Jews who were out to kill him and Jonah prayed to God to save him from his predicament in the belly of the big fish. In both cases, God answered their prayers to be saved.

If you have really read to understand your own Bible, you will know that when Jesus reappeared and met his disciples after his ‘supposedly crucifixion’, Jesus, in his usual style of talking, told his disciples he was NOT dead… are you aware of that?? If Jesus said he was not dead, it means he was not killed, if he was not killed, it means he was not crucified. If he was not crucified, killed and died, then how can he be said to have risen from the dead???!!
 
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