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Christianity vs Baha'i

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The claim to being the truth lies squarely with Jesus. I accept the truth of His words.

'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.'

The struggle you have, I believe, is not with interpretation but with Jesus Christ. As scripture says, He is a stumbling block for many.
What about time do you not understand? When Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me' He was referring to His Dispensation. Jesus never said 'I am the Only Way to the Father for all of time.' Christians say that because they misinterpret scriptures. The Dispensation of Jesus is over. We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, so now the Way to the Father is Baha'u'llah. As far as Baha'is are concerned all the dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Dispensation
  1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
  2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
  3. a divinely appointed order or age:
e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to any of the older revelations of God.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission of Jesus was completed and Christianity fulfilled its purpose for humanity, there was no reason for Jesus to remain in this world or to return to this world. God always sends another Messenger, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the age in which He appears. The new Messenger always brings a new remedy that is needed for the age in which He appears.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The next prophet (king) mentioned by Effendi is David. He uses passages from the Psalms to claim that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah. But does this fit with the evidence of scripture?

Here are just a few passages from the Psalms that clearly point to Jesus Christ as the one and only Messiah.

Psalm 22 gives us a very personal view of a man suffering crucifixion; the initial words of the Psalm were called out by Jesus Christ whilst in the throes of crucifixion [Matthew 27:46].

Psalm 22:14,15. 'I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.'

Psalm 22 also says, 'They part my garments among them, and cast lots for my vesture' [verse 18]. This is exactly what the gospel of Matthew reports as having taken place; 'And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots.'

Psalm 23 gives us an impression of resurrection.
'He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.'

And in Psalm 24 we have words that indicate the ascension, all in the manner experienced by Jesus Christ.
'Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.'

Note: Jesus was a man without sin; a man of clean hands, and a pure heart.

Or, as Psalm 24 says in the final verse, 'Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.'

Another Psalm, referred to by Jesus during his ministry, is Psalm 110:1.
'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

Paul also applies this verse to Jesus in Hebrews 1:13. 'But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
What about time do you not understand? When Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me' He was referring to His Dispensation. Jesus never said 'I am the Only Way to the Father for all of time.' Christians say that because they misinterpret scriptures. The Dispensation of Jesus is over. We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, so now the Way to the Father is Baha'u'llah. As far as Baha'is are concerned all the dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Dispensation
  1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
  2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
  3. a divinely appointed order or age:
e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to any of the older revelations of God.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission of Jesus was completed and Christianity fulfilled its purpose for humanity, there was no reason for Jesus to remain in this world or to return to this world. God always sends another Messenger, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the age in which He appears. The new Messenger always brings a new remedy that is needed for the age in which He appears.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

The point at which Jesus exclaimed, It is finished [complete], is the point at which the earthly ministry of Jesus was completed. He came to die, and he died. But, as we know, the will or testament of a man does not come into effect until after he is dead. This is true for Christ. The Holy Spirit baptism did not come into effect until after Jesus Christ had died [and been resurrected and glorified]. Yet this is what the prophet John had said was Jesus' purpose: 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost'.

If you follow my response to the Effendi article, you'll see that there cannot be another dispensation after the giving of the Holy Spirit. There is no more religion as far as God is concerned; religion (as law) is dead. People are to live by faith in Jesus Christ, and by grace.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Of course that is you opinion because you are a Christian. But as a Christian you should know that Jesus wanted to be served but Jesus did not want to be worshiped:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

If you look at Matthew 4:10, you'll see that to worship someone is to serve them (if done lovingly). These words were spoken in response to satan's temptation to Jesus to worship him [satan]!
Mark 10:18 is not saying that Jesus is not good. It's saying that Jesus is God! [Why else would Jesus call himself 'the good shepherd'? John 10:11]
John 14:28 is accepting that the 'Word was made flesh'; this makes the Son subservient to the Father's will. The Father is not greater because the Father is holier than the Son. The Father is greater because the Son is fulfilling a mission in the flesh.

Jesus said, 'If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour'. [John 12:26]

Philippians 2:10. 'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, of things in earth, and things under the earth;'
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
It'll take time to provide a full response to these claims made by Effendi, but it's clear from the extract that he has selected a number of prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures and applied them to Baha'u'llah. I'd like to show that, when viewed panoramically, all these prophecies can only be reasonably applied to one person, Jesus Christ.

Effendi has taken prophecies from Isaiah, David, Haggai, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zephaniah, Daniel and Malachi. He has also applied New Testament passages spoken by Jesus, Paul and Peter and applied these to Baha'u'llah.

Starting only with Effendi's introductory paragraph, let me show from scripture that Jesus is the intended king of Israel.
Luke 2:28-32. 'Then took he [Simeon] him [the baby Jesus] up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.'

There are only so many ways you can interpret this scripture. It was spoken by an old man, led by the Spirit of God. These are prophetic words and need to be digested.

There is no disagreement that Jesus was the King of Jews, but those prophecies were fulfilled at the time of Jesus. Jesus was the King of Jews, not in a literal or worldly sense, but due to His spiritual station, which was representing God, the King of Kings, regardless if they believed Him or not.


The prophecies that Bahaullah fulfilled are during the End Time.

I will respond to each, gradually when I get time. This is the first one listed by Shoghi Effendi:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,


Bahaullah wrote:

"Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86


Jesus never said He was the Father, thus this prophecy is fulfilled by Bahaullah.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
.

Now let's go to another of Effendi's chosen prophets, Isaiah.
In Isaiah 11:1,2. it says, 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;'

Note: The Messiah is to be a descendant of Jesse, who was from Bethlehem. God is telling us that the Spirit 'shall rest upon him'.
Bahaullah was a descendant of Jesse.

"He was moreover a descendant of Jesse, and belonged, through His father, Mírzá 'Abbás, better known as Mírzá Buzurg--a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fath-'Alí Sháh--to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mázindarán."

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 1, Chapter 18


This prophecy is completely explained in Bahai Scriptures:


"This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.
But “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ—that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.
But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh. Likewise in this marvelous cycle the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquillity and beauty. Disputes, quarrels and murders will be replaced by peace, truth and concord; among the nations, peoples, races and countries, love and amity will appear. Cooperation and union will be established, and finally war will be entirely suppressed. When the laws of the Most Holy Book are enforced, contentions and disputes will find a final sentence of absolute justice before a general tribunal of the nations and kingdoms, and the difficulties that appear will be solved. The five continents of the world will form but one, the numerous nations will become one, the surface of the earth will become one land, and mankind will be a single community. The relations between the countries—the mingling, union and friendship of the peoples and communities—will reach to such a degree that the human race will be like one family and kindred. The light of heavenly love will shine, and the darkness of enmity and hatred will be dispelled from the world. Universal peace will raise its tent in the center of the earth, and the blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and the calf—will act toward each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God....."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
That's really not good enough. This prophecy from Micah is not listed as a prophecy fulfilled by Baha'u'llah for one simple reason; Baha'u'llah is not the promised Messiah.

Thankfully, scripture cannot be broken, and the Micah prophecy is supported by scriptures elsewhere. Let's take a look at the words of John 7:40-42:
'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh out of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?'


Any attempt to spiritualise an event that actually took place is clearly a false teaching. Both Matthew and Luke give detailed records of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.

The reason that Jesus Christ can be relied upon as the fulfilment of prophecy is that he fulfils all the 'suffering servant' prophecies of the first advent. He can be relied on to be the Messiah who will return to judge. Interestingly, many of the prophecies in Isaiah combine the first and second advents without a natural break in context (for example Isaiah 61). Jesus discerned this difference and stated clearly that his first advent was to bring salvation and mercy, leaving the vengeance of God to a future date (see Jesus' words in the synagogue, Luke 4).
"out of the town of Bethlehem" does not necessarily mean, He must be born in Bethlehem. It can also mean His voice is announced from Bethlehem.
But Jesus was born in Nazareth, and there is no proof that it is the same place as Bethlehem. John 7:42 does not mean, Jesus was born or was from Bethlehem. People were thinking the Messiah was to come out of Bethlehem, but since Jesus was not from Bethlehem, they were questioning. This is because, There are two Messiahs in OT. One Messiah was Jesus. Another Messiah is a Messiah to appear during End Time.
My understanding is The Messiah who must appear during End Time, is what People referring to in John 7:42, when They expected He must be from line of David. But, since they did not know Jesus is not the Messiah of End Time, they were referring to incorrect verses of their Holy Book. Moreover, Jesus did not have a human father, so, it cannot be said He was from the line of David.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Here are just a few passages from the Psalms that clearly point to Jesus Christ as the one and only Messiah.
I see nothing in any of those verses that say Jesus is the one and only Messiah.

The Bible does not support that Jesus was the one and only Messiah. Christians believe that Jesus is the one and only Messiah because they want to believe that, and because they want to believe that they interpret scriptures to mean what they want them to mean, and ignore all the evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah of the End Times.

The issue has never been whether Jesus was the Messiah, Baha'is concede to that; the issue has always been who was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the End Times.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The point at which Jesus exclaimed, It is finished [complete], is the point at which the earthly ministry of Jesus was completed. He came to die, and he died. But, as we know, the will or testament of a man does not come into effect until after he is dead. This is true for Christ. The Holy Spirit baptism did not come into effect until after Jesus Christ had died [and been resurrected and glorified]. Yet this is what the prophet John had said was Jesus' purpose: 'Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost'.
Most verses in the NT have multiple meanings, so you can make the NT mean whatever you want it to mean. Logically speaking, that means that no verses you cite and assign meanings to are proof of anything.

That is what you believe was the purpose of Jesus, but that is not what Jesus clearly said was His purpose for coming into the world:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God.

If you follow my response to the Effendi article, you'll see that there cannot be another dispensation after the giving of the Holy Spirit. There is no more religion as far as God is concerned; religion (as law) is dead. People are to live by faith in Jesus Christ, and by grace.
You can live however you want to live because you have free will to believe whatever you want to believe.

All you have is a personal opinion and your personal interpretation of scriptures. Just like all Christians you ignore all the evidence I present that shows that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ because you are set in your beliefs. You do not even consider the possibility that you might be wrong because you are so sure you are right. This is nothing but ego.

Even if the Baha'i Faith is not the truth, you would still have Islam to contend with, and good luck trying to disprove an established religion that is almost as large as Christianity and will soon be larger. Did you ever even wonder how the loving God Christians believe in would allow 1.9 billion Muslims to go to hell, or are you so set in your beliefs that you cannot even use reason?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
With reference to Christendom, let me use one of Jesus Christ's own parables to demonstrate that there is only one Messiah, and that it is He who returns to judge.

Luke 19:9-15, 26, 27:
'And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he [Zaccheus] also is a son of Abraham.
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds [mina], and said unto them, Occupy till I come.'
[skip to v.26,27]
'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.'

Note: Jesus addresses himself as the Son of man. He also plays the part of the nobleman in the parable. The same nobleman who goes away is going to return and judge his servants. There is no room for more 'dispensations' before the judgment comes!
The One who Judges His Servants is God. But God is invisible spirit, and beyond our understanding. Thus, in order for Him to talk with His servants He manifests His Words from His Manifestation who is sent to people. Thus when God spoke to His servants, He did that by Manifesting Himself from Jesus. Later when He wanted to return and Judge His servants He manifested Bahaullah. This time He spoke to His servants through Bahaullah. But as the Real Person behind Jesus or Bahaullah was one and the same God, the Parable appears as if it is the same person.
This parable is not all literal in my view.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Mark 10:18 is not saying that Jesus is not good. It's saying that Jesus is God! [Why else would Jesus call himself 'the good shepherd'? John 10:11]
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus clearly differentiates Himself from God in this verse! That means Jesus is not God, and there are so many more verses like this one that clearly prove Jesus was not God.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Why would this verse refer to God? God cannot give His life because God is not a human who has a life. God is eternal, has always been and will always be.
John 14:28 is accepting that the 'Word was made flesh'; this makes the Son subservient to the Father's will. The Father is not greater because the Father is holier than the Son. The Father is greater because the Son is fulfilling a mission in the flesh.

Jesus said, 'If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour'. [John 12:26]

Philippians 2:10. 'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, of things in earth, and things under the earth;'
I can agree with that.

Jesus was the Son of God, and although the Son is not the Father, the Father is in the Son.

Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Please note that Jesus differentiated Himself from the Father in those verses above. That alone should tell you that Jesus is not God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, but in our view, only in certain verse of the Bible where it says "the Comforter shall speak whatever He can hear", is an "allusion" to a person, because when reading this verse carefully we can get a sense this is a person who has ears and a tongue to speak.

I quote Bahai scriptures:


"Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 108-109
What is the Baha'i explanation of what happened at Pentecost...
Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.​
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Tell that to the 1.9 billion Muslims who comprise 24% of the world population.
Do you realize how illogical that is to say that many people are all wrong about God?
According to Baha'is.... with what Muslims believe right now, are any Muslims correct in what they believe?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is one I also like, because it is so easy to answer. ;)
No, Baha'u'llah was not born in Bethlehem.

3. Begotten in Babylon

I was able to discover several additional clues concerning my second proof and Babylon. The prophecies of Islám, among which were references to the return of the Spirit of Jesus the Christ, made mention of Baghdád (ancient Babylon). The Qur’án alluded to that city as the ‘Abode of Peace’ to which God Himself ‘calleth’. God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, p. 110. To that city, in that same Book, further allusion had been made in the verse: “For them is a Dwelling of Peace with their Lord … on the Day whereon God shall gather them all together.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, p. 110, op cit. Isaiah also spoke of Babylon and the last days when the people would be ‘gathered’ together. In successive chapters leading up to his promise for Babylon, Isaiah declares:

1. “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:22.

2. “Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel … even I will carry, and will deliver you.” Isaiah 46:3–4.

3. “As for our Redeemer, the Lord of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.” Isaiah 47:4. Then Isaiah calls upon them all to hear the words of the one he (God) hath chosen among them in Babylon:

4. “All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.” Isaiah 48:14.

5. “I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.” Isaiah 48:15.

6. “Come ye near unto me … the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” Isaiah 48:16.

7. “Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer … which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldst go.” Isaiah 48:17.

Isaiah concludes with the words:

8. “Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The Lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.” Isaiah 48:20.

Thus Isaiah, like Micah, prophesied that Israel would be redeemed in Babylon. Bahá’u’lláh came to Baghdád (Babylon) and there proclaimed his mission to the world. Unwanted, and unwelcome, he did ‘go forth of Babylon’ and did ‘flee from the Chaldeans’ until he reached the Holy Land that became the world centre of his Faith. This, too, had been foretold by Isaiah in these same chapters. “I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it…and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place my salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.” Isaiah 46:11, 13.


However, it was in the Book of Zechariah that I found the most striking evidence of all that the great Redeemer of the last days would come from Babylon. When Zechariah saw the vision of the one who would say: ‘I am returned to Jerusalem’, he also beheld two olive trees. He asked God to tell him the meaning of the appearance of these two olive trees which appeared in his vision.

“Knowest thou not what these be?’ the Lord asked. “No, my Lord,’ Zechariah answered.

Then God explained the meaning. Zechariah records it thus: “Then he answered me and spoke unto me saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel …” Zechariah 4. In addition to being the name of a rule, this title ‘Zerubbabel’ has a special symbolic significance when we examine its true meaning as given in these verses of Zechariah.

The word Zerubbabel, according to the Oxford University Press red-letter edition of the King James version of the Bible, means ‘Begotten in Babylon’. Other references say that it means ‘Scattered in Babylon’. Cruden, in his Unabridged Concordance, declares it to mean ‘Banished in Babylon’ or ‘Stranger in Babylon’. (‘Born’ in other editions.) All these descriptions fit Bahá’u’lláh. He was ‘banished’ to Babylon from Persia. He was a ‘stranger’ in that land. There in Babylon, his Faith was ‘begotten’. He was in the end ‘scattered’ with his followers, until he, himself, reached the ancient land of Canaan promised by God to Abraham as an inheritance in the last days.

The Faith of Abraham and the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh were both ‘begotten’ in Babylon. The Holy Spirit descended upon each of them in Babylon, and they poured forth the light from their houses of truth in that ancient land. This, too, was foreseen and foretold by Zechariah in his vision:

“Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.” Zechariah 4:8–9.

The Word of God, Abraham, laid the foundation of the house of Israel in Babylon. The Word of God, Bahá’u’lláh finished it, and brought it to fulfilment. Both were ‘begotten in Babylon’. Thus, it was to them, Zerubbabel, that Zechariah directed the message of God:

“This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.” Zechariah 4:6.

Lest there be any mistake, Zechariah asked God once more concerning the meaning of the two olive trees. The Lord answered him saying:

“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” Zechariah 4:14. These two olive trees were Abraham who began the concept of the oneness of God in Babylon, and Bahá’u’lláh who brought the concept of the oneness of God and religion to its fulfilment in Babylon. In yet another way, these two olive trees were the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, who in the last days ‘stand by the Lord of the whole earth’.

I also discovered that the meaning of the word Baghdád, the city in which Bahá’u’lláh declared his Mission, is: ‘The City of God’. Again, Bahá’u’lláh had fulfilled the promises of the sacred Scripture. He had kept the prophecies of Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah, and those of Islám and India, which foretold that the Messiah would come to the land of Babylon, withdraw into the wilderness, then, from that land of ancient mystery, proclaim his mission to the whole world. I marked the second proof: Fulfilled.

(William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 115-118)

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
Baha'is have him coming from Babylon now? What happened to Elam and Assyria? With those two Baha'is make them into Persia. But how do you make Babylon into Persia? Way too general. Baha'is continue to make anything they want a fulfillment. And in the end you downplay prophecy and say it is just "icing" on the cake. No. it's just a bunch of verses taken out of context.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Bahaullah was a descendant of Jesse.
Still amazes me that somebody keep such good genealogical records that they could trace the man who took the tile "Baha'u'llah" all the way back to King David's father. Plus, you guys have him going all the way back to Abraham too. Truly amazing. Yet, we don't have original Scriptures? They all vanished and turned to dust.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'is have him coming from Babylon now? What happened to Elam and Assyria? With those two Baha'is make them into Persia. But how do you make Babylon into Persia? Way too general. Baha'is continue to make anything they want a fulfillment.
Baha'is do not have Baha'u'llah coming from anywhere that He did not come from or going anywhere He did not go to, which perfectly aligns with the prophecies, as Sears proved. Baha'is do not have to MAKE anything into a fulfillment because Baha'u'llah did exactly what the prophecies say the Messiah and return of Christ would do.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Ahaa, so, since Abdulbaha did not comment on every single verse of the Bible, He was making it up.
Very logical conclusion
What kind of "logic" are you using? I asked about the book of Revelation. And what he did comment on does sound like he made it up. Just like his explanation of the resurrection. If you like them fine. But, for me, reading those things in context don't make "Two Witnesses" and "Three Woes" or the post resurrection stories into what Abdul Baha says they are. So quit being a condescending $%^. Too many Baha'is fight for making what they believe is the truth and not for bringing understanding and unity between the religions. I hope you're happy thinking you're "winning" these arguments.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Still amazes me that somebody keep such good genealogical records that they could trace the man who took the tile "Baha'u'llah" all the way back to King David's father.
Still amazes me that Christians believe that Jesus is going to be the End Times Messiah, because given Jesus did not have a human father, it cannot be said He was from the line of David.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Baha'is do not have Baha'u'llah coming from anywhere that He did not come from or going anywhere He did not go to, which perfectly aligns with the prophecies, as Sears proved. Baha'is do not have to MAKE anything into a fulfillment because Baha'u'llah did exactly what the prophecies say the Messiah and return of Christ would do.
But they are only verses taken out of context. Bill Sears is only a man and not a prophet or a manifestation. Jews, Christians and Muslims all have their prophecy verses. And each says something different about what those verses mean.
 
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