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Another thread on Islam, Muslims and terrorism, because its needed for some

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Hmm. So lets see. Do you think because in India Sathi was practiced the Hindu scripture are bad and violent or even monstrous? I mean I dont think there are more demonic things than that anywhere in the world.

So applying your own standard I would say that Hinduism and all the Hindu scriptures are the most monstrous mainstream theological monstrosity in the world. I dont think this, I am only applying your standard to this.

What do you think?

Good job ignoring the elephant in the room.


If the quran isn't homophobic, would we then not expect islamic countries / theocracies, to reflect that?
And do they reflect that?

These are yes / no questions.

Why is it, that the least homophobic countries tend to be secular democracies with low religiosity?
Why is it, that the higher the religiosity among the populace, the more homophobic it is?

Is it because these holy books that underpin those religions have nice or bad things to say about homosexuality?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Could you explain why you think that I did not read your post at all? Because I can assure you that I read it quite well.

And besides that, I replied to @TagliatelliMonster his reply (I did put your quote to make clear what we reply to)

Because, you did not address that post with the context of there post itself. Thats the reason. It showed that there is no way you had taken the context of the post.

Thats why. But if you did read, I apologise. Maybe you had just dismissed it though you read it. Read up a bit on sociology of religion, Robert a pape, Rohan Gunaratne, etc etc.

Peace.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Hmm. So lets see. Do you think because in India Sathi was practiced the Hindu scripture are bad and violent or even monstrous? I mean I dont think there are more demonic things than that anywhere in the world.

So applying your own standard I would say that Hinduism and all the Hindu scriptures are the most monstrous mainstream theological monstrosity in the world. I dont think this, I am only applying your standard to this.

What do you think?
Good you bring this up. I assume you mean "sati" in which the wife is killed/burned when her husband dies

Can you give me the Hindu Scripture verses that tell clearly to burn wives

I am like 100% sure that God would never expect humans to do such a thing

And IF humans do such cruel things THEN
a) Human written Scripture has a mistake in it
b) Human interpretation of Scripture is wrong
c) ....

I am very easy to declare that there is an error in a Scripture, also in Hindu Scriptures AND also in Koran
IF a Scripture is a book of God it MUST be perfect
1 error means it's not a Book of God but a book written by humans who made errors

Note: I do expect God to make errors on purpose to TEST if humans act stupid (not use brains but follow blindly)
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Because, you did not address that post with the context of there post itself. Thats the reason. It showed that there is no way you had taken the context of the post.

Thats why. But if you did read, I apologise. Maybe you had just dismissed it though you read it. Read up a bit on sociology of religion, Robert a pape, Rohan Gunaratne, etc etc.

Peace.
Just for my interest....
Are you purposefully ignoring my questions about homophobia or are you simply taking your time thinking about how you will answer?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Good you bring this up. I assume you mean "sati" in which the wife is killed/burned when her husband dies

Can you give me the Hindu Scripture verses that tell clearly to burn wives

I am like 100% sure that God would never expect humans to do such a thing

And IF humans do such cruel things THEN
a) Human written Scripture has a mistake in it
b) Human interpretation of Scripture is wrong
c) ....

I am very easy to declare that there is an error in a Scripture, also in Hindu Scriptures AND also in Koran
IF a Scripture is a book of God it MUST be perfect
1 error means it's not a Book of God but a book written by humans who made errors

Why should I give Hindu scripture for this mate? Because I am addressing it from your own standard! Scripture is judged by the actions of people. Maybe you missed this part of my post.

"So applying your own standard I would say that Hinduism and all the Hindu scriptures are the most monstrous mainstream theological monstrosity in the world. I dont think this, I am only applying your standard to this."

Do you understand?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Why should I give Hindu scripture for this mate?
I haven't seen it. Would be nice to see it, so I can discard that Scripture or verse

Because I am addressing it from your own standard! Scripture is judged by the actions of people.
This is an interesting idea (Can a Scripture be judged by the actions of people?)

But to avoid misunderstandings, please tell me what you think is "my standard" and tell me how you got that idea.
(This is a genuine question, because I like to understand each other well before going into such a conversation)
(Maybe I gave you a wrong impression of myself or maybe I made a mistake in my reply or you misunderstood)
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
See, this is your own standard. Where no explanation, no analysis is entertained.

Jesus stated you shall not kill, or steal, or commit adultery. You shall forgive your brother.
You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You must pray for your enemies.
When the disciples asked Jesus if he would 'send fire' upon some Samaritans like Elijah
did, Jesus said 'You don't know what manner of spirit you are of.'
This is Christianity.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't have seen it. Would be nice to see it, so I can discard that Scripture


This is an interesting idea I think (Can a Scripture be judged by the actions of people?)

But to avoid misunderstandings, please tell me what you think is "my standard" and tell me how you got that idea.
(This is a genuine question, because I like to understand each other well before going into such a conversation)
(Maybe I gave you a wrong impression of myself or maybe I made a mistake in my reply or you misunderstood)

Oh. Maybe I misunderstood you mate. Just leave it. I do apologise.

Nevertheless if you wish to know the source of this Sathi practice, it comes from the Purana's. Sathi or since you said "Sati" which is actually not the pronunciation, was the wife of Shiva. So Sati's father Dhaksha neglects and excludes Shiva from this "sacrifice" out of disrespect to him and she enters the fire herself to show her loyalty to her husband.

From this the "Sons of royalty" or the Rajputh Kshatriyas took the practice where the wife burns with the husbands body as a sacrifice for the exoneration of the husbands sins and to live with him in the afterlife. This practice later spread to Brahmins as well as the lower castes. The new case of Sati was with Roop Kanwar in the 80's. Just a few decades ago.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Jesus stated you shall not kill, or steal, or commit adultery. You shall forgive your brother.
You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You must pray for your enemies.
When the disciples asked Jesus if he would 'send fire' upon some Samaritans like Elijah
did, Jesus said 'You don't know what manner of spirit you are of.'
This is Christianity.

Invalid. Because you said that you dont care about analysis. So no analysis mate. No explanations are entertained. Just blind belief in another persons religion. ;)

Peter Kills Two People

There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God.” As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?” “Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.” And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too.” Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 )

Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 )

You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 )

The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 )

God Kills Some More

Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’ “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD. “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.” (Jeremiah 15:1-4 )

God Promises More Killing

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )

The Angel of Death

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 )

Destruction of Ai

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.” So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: “Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, ‘The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.’ Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders.” So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn’t realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city.” Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 )

Killing at Jericho

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 )

God Kills an Extended Family

“You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'” Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him.” (1 Kings 14:9-16 )
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Oh. Maybe I misunderstood you mate. Just leave it. I do apologise.
Okay, thank you. But I did really like your reply challenging the Hindu Scripture. I have already found errors in Hindu Scriptures and even more 'crazy' interpretations. But it's good to drop it here, as it is beyond the scope of this thread. I better start a new thread just about this.

Nevertheless if you wish to know the source of this Sathi practice, it comes from the Purana's. Sathi or since you said "Sati" which is actually not the pronunciation, was the wife of Shiva. So Sati's father Dhaksha neglects and excludes Shiva from this "sacrifice" out of disrespect to him and she enters the fire herself to show her loyalty to her husband.
Thank you for giving such a detailed description where you got it from. Indeed a good, useful and interesting story for a new thread
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Nevertheless if you wish to know the source of this Sathi practice, it comes from the Purana's. Sathi or since you said "Sati" which is actually not the pronunciation, was the wife of Shiva. So Sati's father Dhaksha neglects and excludes Shiva from this "sacrifice" out of disrespect to him and she enters the fire herself to show her loyalty to her husband.
Thanks

From this the "Sons of royalty" or the Rajputh Kshatriyas took the practice where the wife burns with the husbands body as a sacrifice for the exoneration of the husbands sins and to live with him in the afterlife. This practice later spread to Brahmins as well as the lower castes. The new case of Sati was with Roop Kanwar in the 80's. Just a few decades ago.
This is a good example that these people (practising Sati) take examples given in their Scriptures literally, whereas to me it's obviously meant figuratively (woman should follow husband). To kill wives this way shows to me that they lack compassion, empathy, love and instead have arrogance and demonic qualities. Of course IF a wife decides out of her own free will (also not being brainwashed) to kill her body (as she believes a soul to be eternal) and follow her husband in death, that is her free choice, and I don't judge such. But others should IMO never make that choice, nor playing guilt games on widows that she should do sati.

Simple first thought that comes to me here is: Shiva is a powerful attribute of God, namely destruction/death. But not just physical death. The symbolic part with Shiva is "death of attachment to ego", hence Shiva is always pictured as covered with ashes.

Sai Baba ones created vibuthi (sacred ash) specially for me and gave it to me, and told me to eat it. Most other devotees came to me, telling me "oh wow you were blessed by Sai Baba, that He created Vibuthi just for you". But I knew better than that. Whenever Sai Baba does something for you then you better first check where you made a mistake. Sai Baba is not known to praise your virtues, He rather points out where to improve yourself (if you want His Grace). At that time I was struggling was an addiction (eating more food than I needed; eating 2 pizzas where one is enough), by giving me vibuthi He clearly gave me a hint to "let go my attachment". And of course for my own good, as eating more than your body needs or can handle, will lead to an early death (again Shiva related).

Sai Baba, who declared to be an incarnation of Shiva, does not want us to die too early, but wants us to give up worldly attachments and gain attachment to the spiritual world. So, my experience with Sai Baba made me clear, that Shiva, although related to death, does not want us to die, instead He wants us to Live, not just live a material life, but live a spiritual life (which means to me to develop good qualities in life (virtues) and to let go attachment to bad qualities (vices). To me Shiva symbolizes "death of Ego" much more than "death of body")
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think it's funny how @firedragon is suddenly discussing hinduism.

I guess the answer to my question is that he's actively ignoring my question.
I understand though. I wouldn't want to be put with my back against the wall either.

Although I'ld have the balls to face up to it.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is a good example that these people take examples given in their Scriptures literally, whereas to me it's obviously meant figuratively

Well. I never said that the practice of Sati was correct. I say its stupid, and monstrous. Dumb. Sorry, but I cannot think of better words to describe it. And it is obviously based on a super imposing of a Goddesses story to a human.

Anyway, no point going further.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Well. I never said that the practice of Sati was correct. I say its stupid, and monstrous. Dumb. Sorry, but I cannot think of better words to describe it
I know you did not say that Sati was correct, you were pretty clear using the words "monstrous" and "monstrosity"

IMO, this practice, if forced, is even demonic (monstrous), these people never transformed their vices. Stupid, dump is too friendly/innocent
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I know you did not say that Sati was correct, you were pretty clear using the words "monstrous" and "monstrosity"

Haha. I meant brother, correct practice of Hinduism. I meant to say that I did not claim Sati is the correct practice of Hinduism.

I was just demonstrating that what people practice in the name of a religion may not be the correct practice according to their scripture. Thus, you cannot judge the scripture based on what people do.

Hope you understand.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Haha. I meant brother, correct practice of Hinduism. I meant to say that I did not claim Sati is the correct practice of Hinduism.
Of course I understood, even before you explained. I read enough from you to know that you don't think such cruel things to be correct

This is a good example that these people take examples given in their Scriptures literally, whereas to me it's obviously meant figuratively
Well. I never said that the practice of Sati was correct.
I never assumed you did, so I was surprised you wrote this to me, hence my reply that I never thought like that

Why you wrote that? The only thing I can think of is, that you maybe thought that I included you in "these people" in the above quote of mine. But this was definitely not the case. "these people" just referred to the people in your story

I was just demonstrating that what people practice in the name of a religion may not be the correct practice according to their scripture. Thus, you cannot judge the scripture based on what people do.

Hope you understand.
Of course I understand. You could have known that I understood this very well, because I explicitly replied that I liked that reply of yours, and that I have in mind to start a new thread about this even (Can we judge a scripture based on what people do or not?)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Of course I understood, even before you explained. I read enough from you to know that you don't think such cruel things to be correct

You still did not understand what I am saying brother.

I mean to say that "Sati is not scriptural". So what people practice does not dictate what scripture dictates.
 
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