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Coalition for Inclusive Capitalism

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Pope Francis is backing a new movement to redefine capitalism as a force for good
Council for Inclusive Capitalism with the Vatican

I find this interesting for several reasons.

It hearkens back to a time before 'greed is good' Milton Friedman capitalism was in vogue.

It brings business, labor and the ethical voice of Pope Francis together.

There are specific commitments on the part of members that can be measured.

Will it succeed? We'll see. Does it solve all the problems? No. Is it worthy of support? My vote is yes.

So color me hopeful but skeptical.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Technology is rendering Capitalism and all other current economic models obsolete. In a post work world, we cannot have a model that depends on jobs as a primary source of income, with income being the means to obtain necessities and other things. Automation screws that whole concept up. Economically speak, an automated force is a slave force, but better because they don't need to sleep or time off to eat.
We must move on, not salvage ideas that worked in the past.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Pope Francis is backing a new movement to redefine capitalism as a force for good
Council for Inclusive Capitalism with the Vatican

I find this interesting for several reasons.

It hearkens back to a time before 'greed is good' Milton Friedman capitalism was in vogue.

It brings business, labor and the ethical voice of Pope Francis together.

There are specific commitments on the part of members that can be measured.

Will it succeed? We'll see. Does it solve all the problems? No. Is it worthy of support? My vote is yes.

So color me hopeful but skeptical.

It sounds hopeful, but I am also skeptical.

Before Friedman came into vogue, it appeared that business and labor were meshing together rather well, and the result was a robust economy and a healthy and improving standard of living for the majority of Americans. For some reason, capitalists didn't like that system (even though it was still capitalist) and pushed for the "greed is good" mentality that dominated the Reagan era.

I like many of Pope Francis' proposals, as I think they're right on, but whether or not the capitalists of the world choose to embrace it is another matter.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You're thinking of that movie, not Milton Friedman.

You mean this movie?

a2qYrWO_700b.jpg


Wall Street (1987).

That was a long time ago. Charlie Sheen starring with his father, Martin Sheen, and Michael Douglas. Also had Darryl Hannah as Charlie Sheen's love interest.

It was actually a pretty decent flick overall. Captures the flavor and decadence of the 80s, I suppose.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Pope Francis is backing a new movement to redefine capitalism as a force for good
Council for Inclusive Capitalism with the Vatican

I find this interesting for several reasons.

It hearkens back to a time before 'greed is good' Milton Friedman capitalism was in vogue.

It brings business, labor and the ethical voice of Pope Francis together.

There are specific commitments on the part of members that can be measured.

Will it succeed? We'll see. Does it solve all the problems? No. Is it worthy of support? My vote is yes.

So color me hopeful but skeptical.
"Bank of America, BP, Estée Lauder, EY, Johnson & Johnson, Mastercard, Merck, Salesforce, and Visa" and the RCC - some of the most capitalist organizations ever seeing the signs of the time and trying to save their profits by pretending to care about morality.
Yes, there is reason to be sceptic.

But if their commitment leads to some sort of "moral capitalism" that is less destructive than a revolution would be, it is worth contemplating. I have my doubts.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You mean this movie?

a2qYrWO_700b.jpg


Wall Street (1987).

That was a long time ago. Charlie Sheen starring with his father, Martin Sheen, and Michael Douglas. Also had Darryl Hannah as Charlie Sheen's love interest.

It was actually a pretty decent flick overall. Captures the flavor and decadence of the 80s, I suppose.
Since everyone knows it, I thought it would be rather pedestrian to name it.
Our canine friend was unaware that Milton Friedman was a civil rights activist too.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
"Avarice became coupled with capitalism in the 1980s, fueled largely by Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman’s theory that the singular goal of businesses is to maximize profits for shareholders. In short, it was the argument that “greed is good.”" - from the article

It's not @sun rise's idea but that of the author.
Greed has been with us ever since the first cave man (& cave gal) had
possessions, eg, food, club, territory. No period in history has been
exempt. The 1980s were no different.
Some should be careful about mis-attributing quotes. Friedman's
work cannot be simplistically reduced to carefully culled quotes.
Even the linked article shows this.
My favorite project of his was ending the military draft...something
that interested me greatly due to my close call with it. This was
back in the day when the left favored it.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Since everyone knows it, I thought it would be rather pedestrian to name it.

Some people may not know about it.

Our canine friend was unaware that Milton Friedman was a civil rights activist too.

I don't think it was just Friedman, though. He was just one voice among many who ostensibly opposed Keynesianism and favored a deregulated, laissez-faire, free market approach where greed was considered "good." It wasn't just a line from a movie. A lot of people really believed it, and many still seem to believe it today.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Some people may not know about it.



I don't think it was just Friedman, though. He was just one voice among many who ostensibly opposed Keynesianism and favored a deregulated, laissez-faire, free market approach where greed was considered "god." It wasn't just a line from a movie. A lot of people really believed it, and many still seem to believe it today.
Why do you think he opposed all regulation (ie, deregulation)?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Because a lot of people were influenced along those lines, enough to bring about political changes which put us in that direction.
Any actual quotes from Friedman that oppose all regulation?
(We must avoid inaccurate stereotyping.)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Any actual quotes from Friedman that oppose all regulation?
(We must avoid inaccurate stereotyping.)

No, because I wasn't referring to Friedman in particular, and I'm not presently inclined to go quote mining at this time.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Capitalism works with similar principles as evolution and natural selection. This is why it is successful. Like in nature, animals are required to take care of themselves; survival of the individual. They may get assistance at birth but quickly learn to fend for themselves. There is no welfare state in nature. Every critter has to assist their own needs or become food for other critters who also work for a living.

A herd of deer do not have certain assigned members who stockpile grass to feed the lazy deer; Socialism. Each deer, as part of group has to feed themselves. This spreads the work, teaching everyone to be able to control their environment, allowing maximum survival for all, even if the group was to disperse. A socialism animal system, if dispersed is half dead in the water. This is not natural and has no selective advantage. This is not natural.

If humans were few in number, lived in a tropical paradise with a perfect year round climate, and plenty of year round natural food, only the babies and small children would be assisted by the parents and siblings. In a short time, each would be trained to become self sufficient; feed yourself, in a land with plenty for all. Natural is not about being a baby forever; Socialism.

Humans, unfortunately, breed beyond the natural limits of balanced environments, due to choice, free will and the pleasure principle. This stresses the environment, making it harder for all to feed themselves. If the human brain was integrated with nature, the brain would tell us when to breed, so a balance was always there for all. But pleasure, is a carrot on a string, that allows choices beyond eco-optimization.

This overbreeding, by will, choice and pleasure can causes an increasingly larger group to disperse, over more territory. This can lessen optimization, which then requires more effort, by all, for self survival. If the human cockroaches do not get a handle on reproduction, many will get driven into harsher and harsher lands with less and less natural opportunity. Natural selection is still in affect, but the circumstances are no longer paradise, with attrition thinning the herd, until a new steady state can be reached. There, all will learn to work to survive and thrive.

Capitalism, connected to civilization, was a way to create more opportunity, due to overbreeding, in harsher environments. It created a system of common value; money, so there is less stress on one area of the ecosystem. If we had plenty of apples, the natural inertia is for all to eat just apples. But this may not be enough for all, all year long. Common value spreads the work for annual survival over more side avenues; fish, roots, wheat, flour, herding, milk, cheese, etc., with trade a means to share our efforts, while widening the bounty opportunity for all. Not everyone is good at cheese making, but with shared value, II can target and specialize my work; wheat, and trade common value,s to get the same result. This is more efficient use of human resources, it opens new niches for all, and allows survival for all.

Capitalism has been extrapolated to beyond the objective niches needed for survival and thriving. Some of these new niches are given too much subjective value, while others get less value for the same effort. If you sew designer clothes or sew common clothes, the sewer get the same value, but the clothes are the not the same value at the store. This is not the fault of capitalism, but is a subjective addendum that should be addressed, so every person's effort should allow them to gain similar common value for efforts.
 
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