nPeace
Veteran Member
Wow. You really love cat. Not a stamp collector, but a cat collector.
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Sin
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I guess you could say that I really love cats.... but I don't keep collecting them and adding to the collection, I only get another cat when one when one is lost from my collection.Wow. You really love cat. Not a stamp collector, but a cat collector.
Apologies for not responding sooner.
No, it's based on ordinary decency, the most direct sense of fairness. (As for 'any deity', it wouldn't be surprising if one or more advocated fairness and decency, but no, I didn't have a deity in mind.)
Certainly. It reflects very badly on the morality of the deity concerned.
Is the rule you mention set out in the bible? I'm not aware of it, but if it is, it's contradicted by Ezekiel 18, and not least 18:20. Those verses are also a further ruling out of the Christian idea of 'original sin', you'll notice.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Deuteronomy 23:2
A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Thanks for that.
Wow, bronze age morality is interesting because of the very stark contrast with modern Western thought. (I include Deuteronomy. 23.1 in the comparison.)
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
They should have chose The Tree of Life. Everyone knows that right? Choose life and not some cursed knowledge about good and evil.
Adam and Eve only did what was in their naive and mostly unknowing hearts. The only thing they knew was God's warning and what they experienced and were allowed to do first hand. They had the personal experience of God. So they should have been able to understand what God meant since God made them perfectly.
So they and their seed fall under a curse. Psalms mentions that children are born in iniquity; which is the same as sinful.
So you have to read the whole of the Old Testament to understand what happened in the first part of the book; the reasons why so many people were exceedingly wicked or very rebellious throughout the OT. Even the faithful needed mercy and exhibited flaws in the OT.
So perhaps sin wasn't explicitly mentioned in the OT until Psalms; its called iniquity. In Genesis it's a curse; or thou shall surely die.
Did anything happen in the Garden that God did not know of. No. The whole Garden was a proving ground.
Now my question is this, Are these stories set up as literal history, or are they there to teach moral lessons?
If it is meant as literal history, then the average modern people of today have no access to its authenticity. You would have to trust biblical scholars second hand to accept the Bible as literal history. The Bible does not prove itself to the average person.
It reads like an ancient book written by people who did not know a whole lot.
Adam and Eve only did what was in their naive and mostly unknowing hearts. The only thing they knew was God's warning and what they experienced and were allowed to do first hand. They had the personal experience of God. So they should have been able to understand what God meant since God made them perfectly.
So they and their seed fall under a curse. Psalms mentions that children are born in iniquity; which is the same as sinful.
So you have to read the whole of the Old Testament to understand what happened in the first part of the book; the reasons why so many people were exceedingly wicked or very rebellious throughout the OT. Even the faithful needed mercy and exhibited flaws in the OT.
So perhaps sin wasn't explicitly mentioned in the OT until Psalms; its called iniquity. In Genesis it's a curse; or thou shall surely die.
Did anything happen in the Garden that God did not know of. No. The whole Garden was a proving ground.
Now my question is this, Are these stories set up as literal history, or are they there to teach moral lessons?
If it is meant as literal history, then the average modern people of today have no access to its authenticity. You would have to trust biblical scholars second hand to accept the Bible as literal history. The Bible does not prove itself to the average person.
It reads like an ancient book written by people who did not know a whole lot.
nPeace
Veteran Member
@osgart you said...
Not saying that you said whether or not it is literal history or fairy tale, I don't even know what you think about it.
What exactly would not be literal history though, if anything - Adam and Eve; Adam and Eve created by God; Adam and Eve eating a forbidden fruit; Adam and Eve having children...?
Not saying that you said whether or not it is literal history or fairy tale, I don't even know what you think about it.
What exactly would not be literal history though, if anything - Adam and Eve; Adam and Eve created by God; Adam and Eve eating a forbidden fruit; Adam and Eve having children...?
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
We have no record of Adam and Eve existing. If anything can be said about original humans I would have to guess about it. My guess is original humans existed in multitudes and not merely two people at first. I can't make definitive conclusions just reading a book. And if salvation depends on an accurate interpretation of the Bible then It is beyond my scope of abilities to know that Biblical events have actual literal historical value.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We know that Adam and Eve were not the first humans, if we believe science is correct.
I googled: "how long have humans existed on earth?"
about 200,000 years
While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialization started in the earnest only in the 1800s.Jan 19, 2015
How Long Have Humans Been On Earth? - Universe Today
nPeace
Veteran Member
We have a record osgart. Why does the Bible not count as a record, in your opinion? They said we didn't have a record of scores of people they now have to admit existed.
So why do you dismiss the record of Adam and Eve, for which Biblical chronology refers to?
(Genesis 5:1-5) 1 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day that God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them. On the day they were created, he blessed them and named them Man. 3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.
(1 Chronicles 1:1-4) 1 Adam, Seth, Eʹnosh, 2 Keʹnan, Ma·halʹa·lel, Jaʹred, 3 Eʹnoch, Me·thuʹse·lah, Laʹmech, 4 Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jaʹpheth.
Luke 3:36-38
Would that not make the entire Bible myth?
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Because the Bible speaks of supernatural events and there are no such experiences in today's world.
I have never met a person who could live 800 years.
The average person cannot corroborate the sensational account of a world wide flood with what is seen in the world today. And having all species of land animals on one large ship defies common sense.
If Adam and Eve are the progenitors of the whole human family then that requires a lot of incestual marriages early on to achieve that.
There's a lot of events that defy common everyday experience.
Biblical authors can easily borrow real names of real people to fabricate stories.
The Bible could be a politically motivated book.
nPeace
Veteran Member
That's not true. However, I acknowledge that you are skeptical.
I've never seen a ape evolve to a man.
Not the world. Some people.
Reading the Bible, and then claiming that all the species today were supposed to be on Noah's ark, is not looking at the account accurately, so of course it not only defies common sense, it corrupts the actual account with a personal view.
Yes, it does. ... and...
According to the account, all of those died, so incest caused no problems throughout the generations of Noah and his sons.
You mentioned none.
However, Richard Dawkins said the same thing about the evolution theory, but he along with many others still accept it.
So you are saying the writers were dishonest. On what basis? Even textural critics do not assume the writers had any reason to lie.
Nevertheless, the evidence says No to that, since it is not only the writers of the scriptures that name these individuals.
The records of Egyptians, Assyrians, ad Babylonians mention these names and events.
Did they collaborate with the Jews in a grand scheme?
From the evidence of archaeologist, that's quite a stretch of the imagination.
For all I know you could be politically motivated, or worst. Scientists as well.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Welcome to the forum...
By "right relations" being restored, I assume you mean the cross sacrifice......
But what if people continue to sin, why aren't they living in sin?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum...
By "right relations" being restored, I assume you mean the cross sacrifice......
But what if people continue to sin, why aren't they living in sin?
Thanks for the welcome.
No, I mean a change of heart. Going from doing our will instead of Gods will in life. Like the parodical Son who took his inheritance and went off to the big city to have some fun! He realized the error of his rebellious way and returned home to restore relations with his father.
Thy will be done on earth as in heaven.
Again, its deliberate dysloyalty to deity. Knowingly rebelling against the father.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay, thanks for explaining, which brings me to my next question: How do you think we can know God's will?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Gods will is discovered in the practice of prayer. Plus we generally have a basic perception of right and wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Interesting, so you believe that God reveals His will to us when we pray?
I believe that God's will is revealed through the Teachings and Laws of the Messengers of God in every age.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Yes, me too. Jesus taught us to have a personal relationship with God.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Your Math does not add up.
If God is perfect, God would know that given free will that His creation would not be perfect. Further, God would know exactly that none of them would come out perfect. A perfect being comes up very lacking creating such imperfection. On the other hand, maybe mankind has it wrong.
Clearly, mankind has it wrong. If mankind has it wrong, then what is the Truth?? How can the Math add up perfectly?
This time-based causal universe is perfect for learning. Learning and growing requires free will. Why? If one did not have free will one would choose the opposite as soon as one were free just to Discover what was missed. We are all learning and growing through our free choices and what returns from our choices. When one understands all sides, intelligence will pick the Best Choices. In a sense, we are all learning and growing our way to perfection.
God is perfect. What people do not realize is that God isn't through creating us yet. WE are all in the learning and growing stage. WE are all walking toward our perfection.
There is way too much to learn in one lifetime. Since there is no time limit on learning, no child will be left behind. No child will be discarded or fried in Hell.
Don't you see? It's the only way the Math will add up. It's the only way there are no missing pieces.
A Leopard does not change it's spots. If all the physics of this world add up perfectly, so must everything about God and the people factor. With this in mind, Sin does not exist!! On the other hand, through our choices we choose what lessons we are to learn. May we all be wise enough not to choose hard lessons for ourselves, but if we do, we won't be condemned. We will be taught until we understand what the Best choices really are.
That's what I see. It's very clear! The Math adds up!!