Irrational Thinking Theism

Fool · Dec 7, 2020

is god, or gods, physicial? if not how does a non-physical thing influence matter?

in monotheism how did the spirit hover above the waters and then create things without action, without being physical?

in polytheism how are gods created? do they arise from consciousness, spirits, or from matter?

Nakosis · Dec 7, 2020

Magic. Magic doesn't require physics.

Once you accept the need for physics it makes non-physical beings obsolete.

ameyAtmA · Dec 7, 2020

Fool said:
is god, or gods, physicial? if not how does a non-physical thing influence matter?

By pervading it

In it but not OF it.

Thoughts created matter? That is Hindu thought. So scientists are getting there.

Now.. WHOSE thoughts? WHO dreamt ?

Fool · Dec 7, 2020

ameyAtmA said:
By pervading it

In it but not OF it.

Thoughts created matter? That is Hindu thought. So scientists are getting there.

Now.. WHOSE thoughts? WHO dreamt ?

actually thoughts, consciousness creates forms. and as i have explained to another, pure consciousness, nirguna brahman, is love. that is why the qualifier pure is used. only love is good, is pure.

love in it's pure state of consciousness is not a respecter of forms and has no distinguishable attributes

Sunstone · Dec 7, 2020

ameyAtmA said:
By pervading it

In it but not OF it.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that you have just now offered us an accurate description of the relationship between deity and matter. Do you see that you still have not offered anything even remotely approaching an explanation of how a non-material deity can 'move matter'?

Revoltingest · Dec 7, 2020

Nakosis said:
Magic. Magic doesn't require physics.

Once you accept the need for physics it makes non-physical beings obsolete.

Or just nicht einmal falsch.

PureX · Dec 7, 2020

Fool said:
is god, or gods, physicial? if not how does a non-physical thing influence matter?

We don't know the relationship between God and matter. Some religions hold to the idea that physical existence (the physical universe) is an expression of "God's will" sort of like we our physical bodies are an expression of our DNA sequencing.

Fool said:
in monotheism how did the spirit hover above the waters and then create things without action, without being physical?

The answer appears to be 'energy'. It would not be that illogical to define energy as the "will for something to happen". And what happens when that energy (will) is released depends on the possibilities and limitations built into it.

Fool said:
in polytheism how are gods created? do they arise from consciousness, spirits, or from matter?

Polytheistic gods tend to be the embodiment of specific manifestations of that divine will as it is being expressed in matter. The god of the sun, or the god of the sea, the god of the volcano, the god of sexuality and procreation, the god of war, etc.,. All different Earthly manifestation of that explosion of 'divine energy' that brought everything into being.

syo · Dec 7, 2020

Fool said:
is god, or gods, physicial? if not how does a non-physical thing influence matter?

in monotheism how did the spirit hover above the waters and then create things without action, without being physical?

in polytheism how are gods created? do they arise from consciousness, spirits, or from matter?

The gods are ethereal and immortal. They are not creations.

ameyAtmA · Dec 7, 2020

DISCLAIMER: My intention of coming into this thread was to share what I have learned, experienced, concluded, rather than prove something - because I see this question repeated for years - take just your threads alone - so many of them. So I thought the question is sincere enough to be answered.

Fool said:
actually thoughts, consciousness creates forms. and as i have explained to another, pure consciousness, nirguna brahman, is love. that is why the qualifier pure is used. only love is good, is pure.
love in it's pure state of consciousness is not a respecter of forms and has no distinguishable attributes

This is all fine. Prem jagat ka saar. Love is the essence. Without pure love it will all wither and die. (Before Love comes Anand, and before Anand comes Chit. Before Chit comes Sat.)
Also, NirguN Bramh is formless, Bramh and Prakruti cannot be separated. Agree with all this.

So what? Formless does not mean there is no One - The One - Seer, Witness, Experiencer , Fascilitator.

The universe is not a result of random electromagnetic fields.

If you agree that this is an infinite "neural" network, then that makes NirguN Bramh a PERSON! Formless Person. Organized universe => an organized Being, an organizer. Because what form can He fit in?

QUESTION: After subtracting the ego, are you a person or a neural network?

This is the PURUSHA of the Rig Veda - Thousand (figurative for infinite) -limbed Purush. That is the Supreme Being ! but why are you averse to Him? That is the One. That is the AtmA of the Universe. Your threads speak atheism - like there is no AtmA.

If you accept Pure Love why are you so averse to the Supreme Lover , the Purusha , the original embodiment, supplier and repository of Love and Anand? Let Him be, and don't worry He does not expect a second "you" to worship Him. We are not speaking of duality (dvaita)

The evidence is subjective, but has been experienced by the Experiencer through rare forms, but of course not all forms.

Do not reduce yourself to electromagnetic fields. Do not underestimate yourself. .

Then again, it is not about forms. Being can remain formless. Invisible to the product, but revealing Self to the devotee,
Product cannot see the One who made it without effort. However there is hope. :

Despite being entangled in the product here, the seeker can find the One and identify with the One, the Source Who has become all of this, but there is a limit -- the once-seeker can now have the wisdom and experience but cannot be the cause of all. - so says the Bramh-sUtra conclusion 4.4.7 onwards. and it is very logically experienced.

----

ameyAtmA · Dec 7, 2020

Sunstone said:
Let's say for the sake of discussion that you have just now offered us an accurate description of the relationship between deity and matter. Do you see that you still have not offered anything even remotely approaching an explanation of how a non-material deity can 'move matter'?

Please see post #9.

It cannot be a random coincidence of events. WHO did this ? WHO thought ? WHO dreamt? It there One ? with One mind? One Soul?

If there is Love, who organized it to nurture?

Who designed? Who wrote? Who spoke? Who sang?

----
Let us forget the Universe for a moment.

Subtract EGO. What does that make you (the ordinary human definition of I or you) ? Nervous system? Pulp? electrons? electricity? stone? What?

Sunstone · Dec 7, 2020

ameyAtmA said:
Please see post #9.

It cannot be a random coincidence of events. WHO did this ? WHO thought ? WHO dreamt? It there One ? with One mind? One Soul?

If there is Love, who organized it to nurture?

Who designed? Who wrote? Who spoke? Who sang?

----
Let us forget the Universe for a moment.

Subtract EGO. What does that make you (the ordinary human definition of I or you) ? Nervous system? Pulp? electrons? electricity? stone? What?

Do you plan on addressing my point -- or just going off on tangents? Serious question.

Fool · Dec 7, 2020

ameyAtmA said:
DISCLAIMER: My intention of coming into this thread was to share what I have learned, experienced, concluded, rather than prove something - because I see this question repeated for years - take just your threads alone - so many of them. So I thought the question is sincere enough to be answered.

This is all fine. Prem jagat ka saar. Love is the essence. Without pure love it will all wither and die. (Before Love comes Anand, and before Anand comes Chit. Before Chit comes Sat.)
Also, NirguN Bramh is formless, Bramh and Prakruti cannot be separated. Agree with all this.

So what? Formless does not mean there is no One - The One - Seer, Witness, Experiencer , Fascilitator.

The universe is not a result of random electromagnetic fields.

If you agree that this is an infinite "neural" network, then that makes NirguN Bramh a PERSON! Formless Person. Organized universe => an organized Being, an organizer. Because what form can He fit in?

QUESTION: After subtracting the ego, are you a person or a neural network?

This is the PURUSHA of the Rig Veda - Thousand (figurative for infinite) -limbed Purush. That is the Supreme Being ! but why are you averse to Him? That is the One. That is the AtmA of the Universe. Your threads speak atheism - like there is no AtmA.

If you accept Pure Love why are you so averse to the Supreme Lover , the Purusha , the original embodiment, supplier and repository of Love and Anand? Let Him be, and don't worry He does not expect a second "you" to worship Him. We are not speaking of duality (dvaita)

The evidence is subjective, but has been experienced by the Experiencer through rare forms, but of course not all forms.

Do not reduce yourself to electromagnetic fields. Do not underestimate yourself. .

Then again, it is not about forms. Being can remain formless. Invisible to the product, but revealing Self to the devotee,
Product cannot see the One who made it without effort. However there is hope. :

Despite being entangled in the product here, the seeker can find the One and identify with the One, the Source Who has become all of this, but there is a limit -- the once-seeker can now have the wisdom and experience but cannot be the cause of all. - so says the Bramh-sUtra conclusion 4.4.7 onwards. and it is very logically experienced.

----

i appreciate your posting and your view. but the overall point for this thread was to point out that believing in a non-physical thing doesn't explain how physical something can arise from a nothing.

Fool · Dec 7, 2020

PureX said:
We don't know the relationship between God and matter. Some religions hold to the idea that physical existence (the physical universe) is an expression of "God's will" sort of like we our physical bodies are an expression of our DNA sequencing.
The answer appears to be 'energy'. It would not be that illogical to define energy as the "will for something to happen". And what happens when that energy (will) is released depends on the possibilities and limitations built into it.
Polytheistic gods tend to be the embodiment of specific manifestations of that divine will as it is being expressed in matter. The god of the sun, or the god of the sea, the god of the volcano, the god of sexuality and procreation, the god of war, etc.,. All different Earthly manifestation of that explosion of 'divine energy' that brought everything into being.

will can be construed as an energy, vitality, force.

this is why neither the spirit nor the waters were created in exodus 1:2. at this point they were unformed. then when the spirit moved on them something is created

ameyAtmA · Dec 7, 2020

Fool said:
i appreciate your posting and your view. but the overall point for this thread was to point out that believing in a non-physical thing doesn't explain how physical something can arise from a nothing.

Not from nothing. The physical nature (unmanifest) is there, but it is a derivative of the Purush - Self. It has no existence without the AtmA - Self.

ameyAtmA · Dec 7, 2020

Sunstone said:
Do you plan on addressing my point -- or just going off on tangents? Serious question.

Sorry but we have 2 options -
(i) either go via the route of inquiry - where I was expecting you to answer my questions
(ii) bring some scripture to keep a train of logic

My point was that , leave alone Deity or universe, you (Sunstone) are not physical! Your will to walk and talk.
(If we are to speak of a Robot - somebody programmed the Robot to sing.)

Universe is the body - a Nth degree creation-derivative.. Distinction between AtmA (Source, cause) and body
I can see this for myself, but if it is not convincing, the established way to conclude I am not a physical being is through this inquiry (ref: Upanishads, VedAnta sutra, Bhagavad Geeta )

McBell · Dec 7, 2020

ameyAtmA said:
It cannot be a random coincidence of events.

Why not?

ameyAtmA said:
WHO did this ? WHO thought ? WHO dreamt? It there One ? with One mind? One Soul?
If there is Love, who organized it to nurture?
Who designed? Who wrote? Who spoke? Who sang?
----
Let us forget the Universe for a moment.
Subtract EGO. What does that make you (the ordinary human definition of I or you) ? Nervous system? Pulp? electrons? electricity? stone? What?

You keep going on and on about subtracting EGO but here you are pushing really hard for a WHO.
Why is it you think that there must be an ego even whilst wanting to subtract ego?

ameyAtmA · Dec 7, 2020

Mestemia said:
Why not?

For several reasons. Let's just agree to disagree.

You keep going on and on about subtracting EGO but here you are pushing really hard for a WHO.
Why is it you think that there must be an ego even whilst wanting to subtract ego?

Very good question

Difference between ego and an existential I is what I was pointing at.

I cannot deny my own existence. I can choose to not be egoistical, but cannot erase or deny existence.
Even if the Supreme Being does not "carry an ego" , knows Own existence, and becomes all of us.

The electricity is not what is intelligent. The Self-Organizer , i,e, the ultimate Being is source of primordial intelligence.

The heart and center (AtmA) of this whole play is the Supreme Being - not a 3rd Person Singular, but 1st Person singular.

Irrational Thinking Theism

Fool

ALL in all

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist

ameyAtmA

~ ~

Fool

ALL in all

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

PureX

Veteran Member

syo

Well-Known Member

ameyAtmA

~ ~

ameyAtmA

~ ~

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora

Fool

ALL in all

Fool

ALL in all

ameyAtmA

~ ~

ameyAtmA

~ ~

McBell

Resident Sourpuss

ameyAtmA

~ ~