Christianity vs Baha'i

Trailblazer said:

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit LIVES inside of the human body. Entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits. Intellectual subtleties and mental realities such as the Holy Spirit do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend into the body, but rather they have direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind while we are alive in the physical body.

The upshot is that the Holy Spirit has a direct connection to the body through the soul.

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You say, 'Entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits' but this flies in the face of Jesus' deliverance ministry.

Here's an example related to the demon possessed man known as 'Legion'. 'Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine:' [Luke 8:33] The devils must have been in the man for them to be cast out. Did these demons not have an influence on the soul (mind) of the man? Clearly they did, because the possessed man was only in his right mind [verse 35] after the possession had ceased. This seems to indicate that a Spirit, whether of God or Satan, has the power to indwell and impact the soul. The difference is that one is a Comforter and gift, whilst the other breaks in as a thief to occupy by force.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Baha'u'llah has said the Prophecies are filled by all the Messengers, though outwardly not all appear to have been realised.

Thus if you do the same comparisons with knowledge of what Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah taught, likewise you could insert passages from their writings in the same way you have with the New Testament.

Regards Tony

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These passages refer only to Isaiah 53.

Who else fits the prophecies of being of the tribe of Judah, born in Bethlehem, the descendent of David?

Redemptionsong said:

These passages refer only to Isaiah 53.

Who else fits the prophecies of being of the tribe of Judah, born in Bethlehem, the descendent of David?

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I will offer other ways of looking at God's Word, as we tend to get caught up on one word and a specific meanings.

I see the Word of God has many many meanings, some can be seen to be specific to a Messenger, some can be found to be applicable to all Messengers. In Truth, when looked at in all ways, every Messenger is foretold with all those passages.

Bethlehem, Arabic Bayt Laḥm (“House of Meat”), Hebrew Bet Leḥem (“House of Bread”)

So born in Bethlehem could also be Born into the Law (Meat) and Word (Bread) of God, which is all the Mesengers.

Judah From the Hebrew name יְהוּדָה (Yehudah), probably derived from יָדָה (yadah) meaning "praise"

Tribe of Juda thus could be seen as a tribe of Praise, to which from will arise the Message given by Messengers.

David, is from the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was derived from Hebrew דּוֹד (dod) meaning "beloved"

All Messengers are Beloved of God, thus they all descend from David.

Let's look at what Jesus offers, as Jesus says there is a new Heaven, a new earth and a new Jerusalem.

Jerusalem means "Abode, or City of Peace“, thus a new Jerusalem can be any city God chooses. (I see it is now Haifa).

Also " According to the Jewish Midrash, "Jerusalem has 70 names". Lists have been compiled of 72 different Hebrew
names for Jerusalem in Jewish scripture."

Numbers also have great meaning in scriptures.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong said:

That doesn't really answer my question. What kind of covenant do you think Baha'u'llah came to bring? Was it a covenant of law or a covenant of grace?

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Maybe it would help to understand what Baha'is believe about Covenants.

Baha’is believe that there is an everlasting covenant which remains in force today.

The overall covenant God made with His followers in Judaism, known to Jews as the Mosaic Covenant, and to Christians as the Old Covenant, put forth the stipulation of the oneness of God – “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2) – as the primary law of the Ten Commandments. In exchange for following those principles, God promised that he would never leave His followers without guidance:

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid … for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. – Deuteronomy 31:6.

This eternal covenant between God and humanity, the Baha’i teachings say, remains in force today. The Creator has bestowed bounties on us all, and in return asks us to recognize His prophets and messengers and abide by their laws and spiritual principles. The Baha’i teachings joyously celebrate that covenant:

How to Understand the Baha’i Covenant

Greater covenant

The greater covenant refers to the covenant made between each messenger from God, which the literature of the Baháʼí Faith name Manifestations of God, and his followers regarding the coming of the next Manifestation from God.[1] According to Baháʼu'lláh, the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, God has promised that he will send a succession of messengers that will instruct humankind.[2] In Baháʼí belief, this covenant is seen to be expressed in prophecy in the religious scripture of each religion, and each Manifestation of God, such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb,[3] and Baháʼu'lláh, prophesied the next Manifestation.[1] In return, the followers of each religion are seen to have a duty to investigate the claims of the following Manifestations.[1]

Lesser Covenant

This is the covenant that is made regarding the successorship of authority within the religion.[1] In Baháʼí belief the manner in which the Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh was clearly put forth is seen as being a fundamental defining feature of the religion and a powerful protector of the unity of the Baháʼí Faith and its adherents.[1]

Kitáb-i-ʻAhd

Baháʼu'lláh established the successorship of the Baháʼí Faith with a document called the Book of the Covenant which was written in his own hand and entrusted by him to ʻAbdu'l-Bahá before his passing.[15] In this document Baháʼu'lláh reaffirmed his mission, exhorted the peoples of the world to observe that which will elevate them and forbade conflict and contention, while clearly and emphatically placing successorship of the Faith in the hands of the Most Mighty Branch, which was a title reserved exclusively for ʻAbdu'l-Bahá.[15][16

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh

The Bahá’í Faith began with the mission entrusted by God to two Divine Messengers—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. Today, the distinctive unity of the Faith They founded stems from explicit instructions given by Bahá’u’lláh that have assured the continuity of guidance following His passing. This line of succession, referred to as the Covenant, went from Bahá’u’lláh to His Son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then from ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, ordained by Bahá’u’lláh. A Bahá’í accepts the divine authority of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and of these appointed successors.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant | What Bahá’ís Believe

Aupmanyav said:

But you agree that Quran is true to the words of Mohammad. Or do Bahais think that Quran also is adulterated?

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No, Baha'is do not believe that the Qur'an is adulterated, we believe it is the words that Muhammad spoke to the scribes who either memorized or wrote down those words, which were later compiled in the Qur'an.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Redemptionsong said:

I'm glad you provided some references to the Hebrew prophecies and Baha'u'llah.

I believe all of Isaiah 53 applies to Jesus Christ. When l have a bit more time l'll do a comparison of the prophecy and the fulfilment!

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I look forward to that. Please bear in mind that Bible verses can be made to mean whatever people want them to mean. The salient difference between the Baha'i Faith and Christianity is that Baha'u'llah already fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messiah, so we can look at the verses and match them up with what actually happened, which constitutes the fulfillment of the prophect. By contrast, all Christians can do is try to make the verses mean what they believe they mean. The same applies to the Jews who are still waiting for their Messiah.

Redemptionsong said:

The Christian claim goes much deeper than the Bahai claims regarding prophecy. For a Christian, all the Law and the Prophets point to Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

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I do not know what you mean by "Jesus Christ is the Word of God." Below is what I believe, the Baha'i view put in my own words.

Most Christians believe that John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 mean that Jesus was God. I do not believe that those verses mean that Jesus is God. God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I believe that God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

If, as I have come to beleive, the Message of Baha'u'llah is correct, then the Truth is what all the Messengers have taught.

When man interprets what a Messengers says, without the authority to do so, then makes it official doctrine, then it becomes even more clouded as to what may have been the original intent of that teaching.

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It is not Bahaollah's message, it is supposed to be Allah's message. But what proof did Bahaollah give to convince people? Did he or did he not? How did Bahaollah's message convince you and not that of Jesus or Mohammad? Was Bahaollah's message something new? If these messengers are just repeating the same message, why does Allah sends them one after the other - sometimes more than one in one age (sends Bahaollah in Iran and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in India)?

Did Allah give Bahaollah the authority to appoint who will interpret his message. As I said in the paragraph above, it is not Bahaollah's messsage. If he gave the authority to Abdul Baha and then Shoghi and then the House of Justice, where is Allah's authorization for that? The plain fact is that these people also interpreted Allah's message in the way they wanted. Therefore the Bahai message also is corrupted.

Trailblazer said:

No, Baha'is do not believe that the Qur'an is adulterated, we believe it is the words that Muhammad spoke to the scribes who either memorized or wrote down those words, which were later compiled in the Qur'an.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:
...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh. - (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings. - (4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

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One one hand you say that what Mohammad spoke was written down by scribes or memorized by people and then you say that it is the original message from Allah. There two things are contradictory. Quran, by what you say, is second hand material and not first hand. Therefore, you should not take it as absolutely correct. Why do not you apply the standards that you apply to Tanakh and Bible to Quran also? You reject the authenticity of Tanakh and Bible, but not of Quran. Is it because Bahaollah was born a Shia Muslim? Your Guardian himself was obviously wrong.

Aupmanyav said:

It is not Bahaollah's message, it is supposed to be Allah's message.

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That is how God gives us the Message. God does not speak directly to humans.

The reason why is given in the metaphor that if the sun was to come directly to earth all life would not exist, it cannot sustain the intensity of the sun.

That is why God has given the Holy Spirit, the Messengers, they were created to endure the intensity of the sun, reflect God to man.

Aupmanyav said:

But what proof did Bahaollah give to convince people? Did he or did he not?

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Baha'u'llah offered his own person, his life and then the Message as proof.

He offered if the first two are not proof enough, then the Word remains and the Word will be embraced as the standard for the age, man's highest aspirations are given in that Message.

Aupmanyav said:

How did Bahaollah's message convince you and not that of Jesus or Mohammad? Was Bahaollah's message something new?

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Before I was a Baha'i I used to cringe at religious exclusion and that one faith had the only truth. As a child I had seen much diversity in faith, especially in Malaya and I always considered if there was a God, there was a God for all of us.

When I read the Message of Baha'u'llah, it resonated with my soul. I actually joined to make my wife happy, as I saw it offered no harm. It was not long, after much reading that I found something much bigger than I had considered, and it all tied into creation in a logical manner.

Aupmanyav said:

If these messengers are just repeating the same message, why does Allah sends them one after the other - sometimes more than one in one age (sends Bahaollah in Iran and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in India)?

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The Messages are Relative to the age they are given and are progressive, each age brings us closer to the maturity of humanity, which is to find out unity and work together as One soul.

Aupmanyav said:

Did Allah give Bahaollah the authority to appoint who will interpret his message. As I said in the paragraph above, it is not Bahaollah's messsage. If he gave the authority to Abdul Baha and then Shoghi and then the House of Justice, where is Allah's authorization for that?

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Yes, as God's Messenger, the Covenant with the progression of the Faith was God given. It is written and sealed by Bahaullah and it continued from there as per that Authority.

Aupmanyav said:

The plain fact is that these people also interpreted Allah's message in the way they wanted. Therefore the Bahai message also is corrupted.

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As per above. The Covernant is given by God.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong said:

Are you sure these prophecies don't point to Jesus Christ?

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Depending upon how you interpret the verses you listed, they can all be applied to Jesus, except the verses I noted below.

However, all the verses you listed are not prophecies of events to come. When I talk about prophecies I am referring to events that had not yet occurred when the Bible was written.

What is meant by prophecy?

A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a deity. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of divine will concerning the prophet's social world and events to come (compare divine knowledge).
Prophecy - Wikipedia

As I said before, some of Isaiah 53 could be about Jesus but some could only be about Baha’u’llah. The only verse that can only be about Jesus is Isaiah 53:7:

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

However, Isaiah 53:8-10 cannot be about Jesus, they are about Baha'u'llah, because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make his grave with the wicked and the rich in his death, and Jesus did not see his seed, and Jesus' days were not prolonged.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” (Psalms 89:27, 28) The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” (Psalms 142:7) Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

I do not have a full list of Isaiah prophecies that are about Baha’u’llah, below is a partial list. All these prophecies were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah and exactly how they were fulfilled is explained in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears

Logically speaking, since these verses have already been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah, Jesus cannot return and re-fulfill them as what has happened has happened and history does not repeat itself, not does changed geography go back to the way it was.

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."(Isaiah 35:1)

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)

"Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:6)

"And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes." (Isaiah 35:7)

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8)

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10)

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." (Isaiah 11:10)

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." (Isaiah 60:1)

"The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13)

"I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." (Isaiah 41:18)

"I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together." (Isaiah 41:19)

Redemptionsong said:

the descendent of David?

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Abdulbaha wrote:

"...but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

Trailblazer said:

As I said before, some of Isaiah 53 could be about Jesus but some could only be about Baha’u’llah. The only verse that can only be about Jesus is Isaiah 53:7:

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

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It is good to note that this also applies to the Bab.

The Bab also had a trial that was to Mock him and he also refused to talk.

He was also executed, Gave His life as to allow the Glory of God to shine.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

- The reason why is given in the metaphor that if the sun was to come directly to earth all life would not exist, it cannot sustain the intensity of the sun.
- Baha'u'llah offered his own person, his life and then the Message as proof.
He offered if the first two are not proof enough, then the Word remains and the Word will be embraced as the standard for the age, man's highest aspirations are given in that Message.
- Before I was a Baha'i I used to cringe at religious exclusion and that one faith had the only truth. As a child I had seen much diversity in faith, especially in Malaya and I always considered if there was a God, there was a God for all of us.
- When I read the Message of Baha'u'llah, it resonated with my soul. I actually joined to make my wife happy, as I saw it offered no harm. It was not long, after much reading that I found something much bigger than I had considered, and it all tied into creation in a logical manner.
- The Messages are Relative to the age they are given and are progressive, each age brings us closer to the maturity of humanity, which is to find out unity and work together as One soul.
- Yes, as God's Messenger, the Covenant with the progression of the Faith was God given. It is written and sealed by Bahaullah and it continued from there as per that Authority.

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- I sincerely think that God has the power to change the intensity of his glory. To say that he cannot, is sort of blasphemy. The metaphor is misleading. God's intensity has no regulator, even God cannot change it.
-- That is a very weak evidence and there is nothing new in the message.
- What is your evidence for existence of Allah /God.
- Oh, your being a Bahai is to please your wife, very nice. So, no evidence is no problem for you. It surely harms. It increases strife in the world, one more religion trying to be the world's largest.
- What change Judaism, Christianity and Islam did bring to the world except more strife. Where is maturity and unity?
-What does the covenant said? Kindly give me Bahaollah's words. If he said "I delegate the power to make amendments to Abdul Baha", that may be against the covenant. Did Allah give him the power to delegate - "After Bahaollah, his son will take over"?

Aupmanyav said:

- I sincerely think that God has the power to change the intensity of his glory. To say that he cannot, is sort of blasphemy.

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Baha'u'llah confirms that God does change the intensity of the Light as God chooses.

"... The measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ. Each and every one of them hath been the Bearer of a distinct Message, and hath been commissioned to reveal Himself through specific acts. It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness. Their Revelation may be likened unto the light of the moon that sheddeth its radiance upon the earth. Though every time it appeareth, it revealeth a fresh measure of its brightness, yet its inherent splendor can never diminish, nor can its light suffer extinction.
It is clear and evident, therefore, that any apparent variation in the intensity of their light is not inherent in the light itself, but should rather be attributed to the varying receptivity of an ever-changing world. Every Prophet Whom the Almighty and Peerless Creator hath purposed to send to the peoples of the earth hath been entrusted with a Message, and charged to act in a manner that would best meet the requirements of the age in which He appeared...."

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong said:

You say, 'Entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits' but this flies in the face of Jesus' deliverance ministry.

Here's an example related to the demon possessed man known as 'Legion'. 'Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine:' [Luke 8:33] The devils must have been in the man for them to be cast out. Did these demons not have an influence on the soul (mind) of the man? Clearly they did, because the possessed man was only in his right mind [verse 35] after the possession had ceased. This seems to indicate that a Spirit, whether of God or Satan, has the power to indwell and impact the soul. The difference is that one is a Comforter and gift, whilst the other breaks in as a thief to occupy by force.

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Baha'is do not believe in demons nor do we believe in Satan as real entities that exist. We believe that verses that refer to such are symbolic, not literal. The evil one, also referred to in other passages as the Satanic Self, is the lower selfish nature of man that is waiting to entrap us and lead us away from our true spiritual nature.

“Say: O people! The Lamp of God is burning; take heed, lest the fierce winds of your disobedience extinguish its light. Now is the time to arise and magnify the Lord, your God. Strive not after bodily comforts, and keep your heart pure and stainless. The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the one true God, deliver yourselves from the darkness that surroundeth you. Center your thoughts in the Well-Beloved, rather than in your own selves.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 167-168

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan; Jesus was saying to Peter that the things that are not of God but are rather of men (selfish desires) are offensive to Him. Then Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from knowing Him and believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

We see the same theme regarding attachment to the world repeated in the following verses:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Aupmanyav said:

What is your evidence for existence of Allah /God.
- Oh, your being a Bahai is to please your wife, very nice. So, no evidence is no problem for you. It surely harms. It increases strife in the world, one more religion trying to be the world's largest.

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Who said there was no evidence?

The evidence I found confirmed to me that Baha'u'llah ame to do what He claimed and that was all I needed at that time. That I did it to please my wife was her bounty, not mine, as she showed me the Faith.

Regards Tony

Aupmanyav said:

What change Judaism, Christianity and Islam did bring to the world except more strife. Where is maturity and unity?

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This requires us to consider how man has progressed spiritual as an individual, to a family, to a village, to a city and then on to a Nation.

Muhammad brought that personal connection with God to a collective belief in One God, that culminated in Nation building.

Baha'u'llah has come to build One planet with one people.

Helps me consider that before long we may be considering the necessity to foster unity with beings from other planets.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Baha'u'llah confirms that God does change the intensity of the Light as God chooses.
"... It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness."

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If that is the case then why the message through messengers and why not directly to people?
"... It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness." So greatness varies. Some w3ere not as great as others. I wonder who is the greatest? Bahaollah?
sheddeth, appeareth, revealeth.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It is good to note that this also applies to the Bab.

The Bab also had a trial that was to Mock him and he also refused to talk.

He was also executed, Gave His life as to allow the Glory of God to shine.

Regards Tony

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I don't know why I did not think of that. Dumb me.

Aupmanyav said:

What does the covenant said? Kindly give me Bahaollah's words. If he said "I delegate the power to make amendments to Abdul Baha", that may be against the covenant. Did Allah give him the power to delegate - "After Bahaollah, his son will take over"?

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There is the Greater Covenants and the Lesser Covernants.

This is a short explanation.

Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

Regards Tony