Christianity vs Baha'i

CG Didymus said:

Yes, I've heard Baha'is say that they didn't lose their belief in Jesus they gained a belief in all the other supposed manifestations. But, who is that Jesus that they now believe in? It is not the same Jesus that an Evangelical, born-again Christian believes in. And if those Christians are wrong. If they have misinterpreted things in the gospels about Jesus, then those beliefs should be "whittled" away and done away with. But is it a misinterpretation or a pretty good interpretation of what the gospels are saying? If that is so, then it is the gospels themselves that are wrong and misleading.

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The Key is CG, who do you think Christ is.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

My thoughts would be that the original teaching of Reincarnation would have been built upon by men and has not been recorded in its pure form.

As such, it is up to us to decide what it is today that is being taught, is it from God, or if it is built upon man's thoughts?

I can only answer that for myself.

Regards Tony

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So the Hindu Scriptures that support a belief in reincarnation are not the "pure" teachings from God? And, in fact, they shouldn't be called "Scriptures" because they are teachings of men, not God? I don't know how Baha'is do it? They deny, whittle, rip apart, the teachings of the other religions while at the same time saying that all the religions are true and from God.

Why not just say that the essence of most religions is one. But each one of them has many man made ideas about God, Gods, Goddesses, devils and demons, and prophets and incarnations. If we whittle away all the myth and legends, we find that most all religions want people to be good and obey some basic rules that would allow all people to live in peace.

CG Didymus said:

Yeah, unlike you, I don't need any of the NT to be true. However, if we are to believe it is inspired of God and all that stuff is true, then it says that he showed himself to be alive and then the verse where he says he has flesh and bone. Could very well be a total lie. The gospel writers could easily have written in things that never happened. But just in case someone really cares, that is what those writers said happened and that there were several witnesses.

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If a story says there were several witnesses that does not make it a true story. Anyone can write a story that says there were several witnesses.

I am not an all or nothing person because I consider that illogical, so I can take what I consider true from the Bible and leave the rest. As far as some verses saying Jesus showed Himself to be alive as flesh and bone, there are any number of reasons it might have been written that way. It is also logically impossible that Jesus never said any of what was recorded verbatim, as Christians believe.

Below is a post I just posted to nPeace on the Sin thread:

The Bible does not SAY anything because it does not talk. It just sits in a shelf till people read it and interpret it and assign meanings to the words in the pages. You interpret it one way, I interpret it another way, another person interprets it yet another way. That means it can have more than one meaning.

If you want to talk about logic, let's talk about it. The Bible is not verbatim what Jesus said, everyone knows that, because it would be logically impossible for those words that were recorded to be exactly what Jesus said, given they were written by men who did not even know Jesus decades after Jesus walked the earth.

So it really does not matter what the verses say, since they are not a perfect representation of what Jesus said.

By stark contrast, Baha'u'llah wrote His own scriptures, so we know for a fact that they are exactly what He said.

#134 Trailblazer, 32 minutes ago

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The Key is CG, who do you think Christ is.

Regards Tony

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Yes that is the key. The Fundamentalist Jesus is God. He is the Savior. He alone has the ability to forgive people of their sins and all of that Christian stuff. The Baha'i Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead. Probably didn't walk on water. And what else? What was so special about him? The legend of Jesus was great. He was a God/man that healed the sick and cast out demons and conquered death and Satan. But, I guess, that is all just myth, huh? I know, I know you have Baha'i verses saying how great he was, but really... if he didn't do the things said about him in the gospels, what did he do? What were the social laws that he brought that changed the world? And then, his "dispensation" was over and done in 632AD? What did Christianity really accomplish? What beliefs of early Christianity do Baha'is say are really true? If they went around preaching things about Satan and hell, then that was false. If they said that Jesus had physically risen from the dead, that was a lie. What then was true about the Christian message about Jesus in those early years?

Trailblazer said:

The Bible does not SAY anything because it does not talk.

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Call it whatever you like, but the writers of the Bible stories had something to say. Was it truth or myth or a little of both? I have no problem believing that the stories were written to the people in those times to be taken as The Truth. I have no problem believing that those writers attributed things to a God that couldn't be seen or proven at that time, but told the people in times past that God had done things that proved that he was real and would reward good and punish evil. And then what did they do? They wrote out a bunch of laws and rules and told the people that this is what God wants.

Whatever you want to call that... it is saying to the people, "This is the Truth. Obey or you'll be sorry." Now comes interpretations on top of what it is saying. And those interpretations are saying to the people how they should behave and what things they should do to please their invisible God. It says exactly how they should chop up bulls and goats and roast them in his honor. It tells them exactly how to sacrifice an animal to have their sins forgiven. Do you really think God said that or people? But, when you read a book, that book says stuff. Written words or spoken words, they mean stuff. Sometimes they take some interpretation. But still a person would say, "The book said such and such... What does that mean?"

CG Didymus said:

Call it whatever you like, but the writers of the Bible stories had something to say. Was it truth or myth or a little of both?

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Bingo. It is a little of both.

CG Didymus said:

It says exactly how they should chop up bulls and goats and roast them in his honor. It tells them exactly how to sacrifice an animal to have their sins forgiven. Do you really think God said that or people? But, when you read a book, that book says stuff.

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But that does not mean God said what the book says God said or did what the book says God did. The Old Testament is like an anthropomorthism of God. The New Testament is like a storybook. Imo.

If you want to know about God, I suggest you read what Baha'u'llah wrote about God.

CG Didymus said:

What then was true about the Christian message about Jesus in those early years?

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What then was true about the Christian message about Jesus in those early years was lost early on.

"That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ He it was who gave baptism a mysterious significance, ‘so as to connect his mission with the experience of initiates in Hellenic mystery cults’, (232) he turned the last supper into a sacramental union with the Lord of those celebrating it; (233) he was responsible for the sacramentalization of the Christian religion, and took the phrase ‘Son of God’--- in the Jewish religion merely a title for the Messiah --- to be an ontological reality. The idea of the Son of God, come down from heaven to earth, hitherto inconceivable to Jewish thought, (234) was taken from Paul from the ancient religious syncretism of Asia Minor, to fit in with the need at the time for a general savior. It is generally accepted by critical scholarship that the godparents were the triad from the cult of Isia (Isis, Osiris and Horus) and also Attis, Adonis and Hercules. Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ……..

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. This is even admitted by some Catholics: ‘Christianity today mostly means Paul.’ (245) And Wilhelm Nestle stated—as noted also by Sabet—‘Christianity is the religion founded by Paul who replaces the Gospel of Jesus by a gospel about Jesus.’ (246) So also Schonfield: ‘Paul produced an amalgamation of ideas which, however unintentionally, did give rise to a new religion.’ (247)……

Measured by the standard of Baha’u’llah revelation, the Pauline doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of Original Sin, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the sacramentalisation of the Christian religion, the whole Church plan of salvation — which not only contradicts the Jewish understanding of God (255) but was also strongly repudiated by the revelation of God which succeeded Christianity (256) — these are a deformation of Jesus’s teaching. Some critical theological scholars have confirmed that these deformations in Christianity started very early, in fact with Paul, and that the arch-apostle, without whom Marcion would not have been possible, was the arch-heretic in Christianity—as Tertullian very rightly saw. (257) Years ago, when I became acquainted with the founder of the Christian religion in the faith of the original community through H. J. Schoep’s Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums, (258) the standard work on the subject, I was deeply impressed. Here Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour, but the messenger of God to whom the Quran testifies and who is glorified by Baha’u’llah. (259)"

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

These are my thoughts from Isaiah.

If you read Isaiah Chapter 24, when you get to verse 23, it gives what will be the covenant that we will live under and where it will come from.

Chapter 25 tells of the unfoldment.

Chapter 26 verse 1 the strong city is Achor (Akka)

Chapter 27 continues the story and it gets interesting in verse 12 as Baha'u'llah was Banished from Assyria from the river at Baghdad stopped near two rivers in Egypt on that banishment, one being Alexandria on to verse 13 where the Holy Mount is Mount Carmel, which is where the Laws now goes out from Zion.

The most amazing thing is, when one k ows of Baha'u'llah's Message and Exile, there is scarcely any passage in Bible Prophecy, that can not be attributed to that Message.

I would ask, what is the chances of that?

There is much to offer, I will keep it short, with only a few points to consider, Chapter 28 mentions the Lord of Hosts, which again is a Title of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

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That doesn't really answer my question. What kind of covenant do you think Baha'u'llah came to bring? Was it a covenant of law or a covenant of grace?

InvestigateTruth said:

Do you believe when apostles saw Moses and Elijah on the mountain, those Two were physically present there?

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No. But l believe they were recognisable spiritual figures.

Trailblazer said:

I really don't know, I'd have to see those scriptures.

As I have said in the past, there is really no way we can know what the gospel writers believed, or even what they were trying to convey. All we know is that they wrote stories that were convincing to millions of people who believes the the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead, but according to Paul, the resurrection of the dead is not physical, it is spiritual (see verses below)..

I do have another idea, that the resurrection stories were misunderstood. Something was seen, but it was not the physical body of Jesus, it was the spiritual body of Jesus. As Redemptionsong said:

"Scripture teaches that the body of Jesus Christ was raised as a spiritual body. Jesus Christ showed himself in his new body to demonstrate the reality of the bodily resurrection. He showed himself to the twelve, and upward of five hundred witnesses on one occasion."
#727 Redemptionsong, Today at 3:32 AM

"True. The body in resurrection is no longer a natural body.
In 1 Corinthians 15:41-44 it says, 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.' "
#731 Redemptionsong, Today at 11:45 AM

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I'm glad you provided some references to the Hebrew prophecies and Baha'u'llah.

I believe all of Isaiah 53 applies to Jesus Christ. When l have a bit more time l'll do a comparison of the prophecy and the fulfilment!

The Christian claim goes much deeper than the Bahai claims regarding prophecy. For a Christian, all the Law and the Prophets point to Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

CG Didymus said:

I don't know how Baha'is do it? They deny, whittle, rip apart, the teachings of the other religions while at the same time saying that all the religions are true and from God.

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Perhaps there is insight in asking why they do it, rather than how they do it. Obviously, they do do it.

Trailblazer said:

By stark contrast, Baha'u'llah wrote His own scriptures, so we know for a fact that they are exactly what He said.

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But you agree that Quran is true to the words of Mohammad. Or do Bahais think that Quran also is adulterated?

CG Didymus said:

What beliefs of early Christianity do Baha'is say are really true? If they went around preaching things about Satan and hell, then that was false. If they said that Jesus had physically risen from the dead, that was a lie. What then was true about the Christian message about Jesus in those early years?

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Nothing really, because the Commandments came from Moses. Jesus' birth also is a point of contention.

Redemptionsong said:

No. But l believe they were recognisable spiritual figures.

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I believe spirit is invisible. The Bible says, God is invisible spirit.
So, I don't believe the Apostles could see spirit of Moses and Elijah, Thus this story is not to be interpreted literally. That is just a symbolic story, having an inner meaning. Some early Christians understood Moses and Elijah as a symbol of Law of Religion.

Same with story of Jesus appearing to Apostles. I believe it is a symbolic story having an inner meaning, not a physical event in the sense that actually Jesus was seen by their physical eyes. Rather it could mean, they were able to see the truth of Jesus with their inner eye, which is recognition of truth of Christ.

The Bible says, "now yea are the body of Christ", so, it could mean the reality of Christ and His Will was then appeared in His disciples, and that is the resurrection of Christ.

CG Didymus said:

Hmmm? God "inspired" the Bible? What do you mean by that? He put thoughts into people's heads and had them write things down?

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Yes, somewhat like what you are saying. We don't know how God puts thought in the mind, but we believe He can. However, to write scriptures of God, I believe the Authors of Bible had to reach a certain level of purity and a high level of spirituality. The authors of Bible were not just the average person that just God put thoughts in their mind. Out of billions, there is only very few, that can have reached that level of wisdom.

Because I know that Baha'is take virtually all Bible stories as being fictional, symbolic stories and are not literal.

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Well, yes, Bahais believe God does not always write literal words. He does not reveal all the truth at once, so, instead He speaks in riddles, uses symbols, and metaphors to keep certain secrets hidden underneath these symbolic stories, such that those secrets will not be seen by ordinary people, until the next manifestation, when a new prophet and wise men appear to bring its interpretations.

Yet, Baha'is make some of the characters and the God of the Bible real, historical and literal people... that didn't do the things written about them.

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Correct, the Bahais believe the scriptures contains both literal sections and passages, as well as symbolic and hidden words, which are not literal.

Only whenever God did not want to explicitly reveal something, He spoke them in symbolic language. But if the subject was no secret, He spoke explicitly and without symbolic expressions.

From Adam to Jesus, Baha'is don't believe the stories about them as being literally true. So God inspired people to write fictional accounts of these people?

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God manifested Himself through His manifestations. The manifestations then, had power to train companions or disciples to have wisdom and knowledge and to write scriptures. That is, the wisdom of God was manifested in the apostles, and thereby they were capable of writing scriptures in symbolic language when needed.

Redemptionsong said:

That doesn't really answer my question. What kind of covenant do you think Baha'u'llah came to bring? Was it a covenant of law or a covenant of grace?

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It is both I understand. But Grace of God is above His justice.

This is what Baha'u'llah wrote:

"O YE peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His commandments, shining above the Dayspring of His bountiful care and loving-kindness.
From My laws the sweet smelling savour of My garment can be smelled, and by their aid the standards of victory will be planted upon the highest peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation these words: ‘Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty.’ Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words, laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can describe. By My life! He who hath drunk the choice wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour, will circle around My commandments that shine above the Dayspring of My creation.
Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!…"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 119-121

CG Didymus said:

Yes that is the key. The Fundamentalist Jesus is God. He is the Savior. He alone has the ability to forgive people of their sins and all of that Christian stuff. The Baha'i Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead. Probably didn't walk on water. And what else? What was so special about him? The legend of Jesus was great. He was a God/man that healed the sick and cast out demons and conquered death and Satan. But, I guess, that is all just myth, huh? I know, I know you have Baha'i verses saying how great he was, but really... if he didn't do the things said about him in the gospels, what did he do? What were the social laws that he brought that changed the world? And then, his "dispensation" was over and done in 632AD? What did Christianity really accomplish? What beliefs of early Christianity do Baha'is say are really true? If they went around preaching things about Satan and hell, then that was false. If they said that Jesus had physically risen from the dead, that was a lie. What then was true about the Christian message about Jesus in those early years?

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The Menifestations of God, including Jesus were spiritual teachers of mankind. They didn't come to perform magic shows such as walking on the water, or turning wine to water, or things like that.
They came to spirituality train mankind to become human, rather than wild beasts.

I agree, we still need a lot more manifestations. I still think we have a long way to go, to become good humans.

Trailblazer said:

I have never interpreted all the the other chapters of Isaiah that refer to suffering servant so some of them might well refer to Jesus. However, I believe that Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, and Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting. There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

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Isaiah 53 as Fulfilled by Christ
Isaiah 53:1. Who hath believed our report?
John 12:37. Yet they believed not on Him.
Isaiah 53:1. To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
Luke 10:21. Thou hast revealed them unto babes.
Isaiah 53:2. He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant.
John 15:1. I am the true Vine.
Isaiah 53:2 And as a root out of a dry ground.
Isaiah 11:1. A rod out of the stem of Jesse, a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
Isaiah 53:2. He hath no form nor comeliness.
Isaiah 52:14. His visage was so marred more than any man.
Isaiah 53:2. And when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
1 Corinthians 2:14. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.
Isaiah 53:3. He is despised.
Matthew 27:29. They mocked Him.
Isaiah 53:3. And rejected of men.
John 18:40. Not this man, but Barabbas.
Isaiah 53:3. A Man of Sorrows.
Mark 14:32. My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death.
Isaiah 53:3. And acquainted with grief.
John 11:35. Jesus wept.
Isaiah 53:3. And we hid as it were our faces from Him.
John 5:40. Ye will not come to Me that ye might have life.
Isaiah 53:3. He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
1 Corinthians 1:23. Unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.
Isaiah 53:4. Surely He hath borne our griefs.
Hebrews 4:15. Touched with the feeling of our infirmities.
Isaiah 53:4 And carried our sorrows.
John 11:38. Jesus again groaning in Himself, cometh to the grave.
Isaiah 53:4. Yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.
Luke 23:35. Let Him save Himself, if He be the Christ, the Chosen of God.
Isaiah 53:5. He was wounded for our transgressions.
1 Peter 3:18. Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust.
Isaiah 53:5. He was bruised for our iniquities.
John 19:1. Pilate took Jesus and scourged Him.
Isaiah 53:5. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him.
Colossians 1:20. Having made peace through the blood of His Cross.
Isaiah 53:5. And with His stripes we are healed.
Hebrews 10:10. Sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Isaiah 53:6. All we, like sheep, have gone astray.
Romans 3:23. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Isaiah 53:6. We have turned every one to his own way.
Philippians 2:21. All seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.
Isaiah 53:6. And the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21. He hath made Him to be sin for us.
Isaiah 53:7. He was oppressed.
Luke 22:44. Being in an agony He prayed the more earnestly.
Isaiah 53:7. And He was afflicted.
John 19:5. Wearing the crown of thorns.
Isaiah 53:7. Yet He opened not His mouth.
1 Peter 2:23. When He suffered He threatened not.
Isaiah 53:7. As a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.
Matthew 27:14. He answered him to never a word.
Isaiah 53:7. He was taken from prison and from judgment.
John 18:24. Now Annas had sent Him bound unto Caiaphas.
Isaiah 53:8. And His manner of life who shall declare. [At his trial, no man spoke up for His innocency]
John 18:20,21. I spake openly to the world...ask them that heard Me...behold they know what I said.
Isaiah 53:8. For He was cut off out of the land of the living.
Acts 2:23. By wicked hands crucified and slain.
Isaiah 53:8. For the transgression of My people was He smitten.
John 11:51,52. That Jesus should die fro that nation.
Isaiah 53:8. His grave was appointed with the wicked, but it was with the rich in his death. [The intention was to give Jesus the burial of a criminal along with the two thieves.]
Matthew 27:57-60. A rich man named Joseph...begged the body of Jesus, and laid it in his own tomb.
Isaiah 53:9. Because He had done no violence.
1 Peter 2:22. Who did no sin.
Isaiah 53:9. Neither was any deceit in His mouth.
1 Peter 2:22. Neither was guile found in His mouth.
Isaiah 53:9. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He hath put Him to grief.
Romans 8:32. He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all.
Isaiah 53:10. When Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin.
John 3:16. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
Isaiah 53:10. He shall see His seed.
John 3:16. That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.
Isaiah 53:10. He shall prolong His days.
John 3:16. But have everlasting life.
Isaiah 53:10. The pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
John 17:4. I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.
Isaiah 53:11. He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied.
Hebrews 12:2. Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross.
Isaiah 53:11. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many.
John 17:3. This is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 53:11. For he shall bear their iniquities.
1 Peter 2:24. His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree.
Isaiah 53:12. Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great.
Philippians 2:9. Wherefore God hath also highly exalted Him.
Isaiah 53:12. And he shall divide the spoil with the strong.
Colossians 2:15. Having spoiled principalities and powers.
Hebrews 3:2. Appointed heir of all things.
Isaiah 53:12. Because He hath poured out His soul unto death.
John 10:15. I lay down My life for the sheep.
Isaiah 53:12. And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Mark 15:27. And with Him they crucify two thieves.
Isaiah 53:12. And he bare the sin of many.
Hebrews 9:28. Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.
Isaiah 53:12. And made intercession for the transgressors.
Luke 23:34. Father, forgive them.
Hebrews 7:25. Ever liveth to make intercession for us.

Are you sure these prophecies don't point to Jesus Christ?

Aupmanyav said:

But you agree that Quran is true to the words of Mohammad. Or do Bahais think that Quran also is adulterated?

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Vinayaka said:

Perhaps there is insight in asking why they do it, rather than how they do it. Obviously, they do do it.

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Why it is done is to find what is from God and what is from our own selves.

If, as I have come to beleive, the Message of Baha'u'llah is correct, then the Truth is what all the Messengers have taught. The older the Faith becomes, especially in ages where records were not kept, the ability for us to determine what was the original teaching gets far more complicated.

When man interprets what a Messengers says, without the authority to do so, then makes it official doctrine, then it becomes even more clouded as to what may have been the original intent of that teaching.

A good example in found in Christianity with the doctrine of the Trinity, even when we have the recorded word and see that the doctrine does not hold up to full scrutiny, it still remains as a must beleive for many Christians.

I see the whole purpose of the Message of Baha'u'llah is for us to re-examine what we beleive against what we now know in the age we live, in an age of advanced knowledge of science. How sound are those doctrines when weigh up against our current science? In the age where we can see we are one people on but one planet, how do exclusive thoughts about truth hold up?

I can only wish you and all well and happy, as I see world events are pushing us towards great conclusions where we will ultimately find our Unity.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong said:

Isaiah 53 as Fulfilled by Christ
Isaiah 53:1. Who hath believed our report?
John 12:37. Yet they believed not on Him.
Isaiah 53:1. To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
Luke 10:21. Thou hast revealed them unto babes.
Isaiah 53:2. He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant.
John 15:1. I am the true Vine.
Isaiah 53:2 And as a root out of a dry ground.
Isaiah 11:1. A rod out of the stem of Jesse, a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
Isaiah 53:2. He hath no form nor comeliness.
Isaiah 52:14. His visage was so marred more than any man.
Isaiah 53:2. And when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
1 Corinthians 2:14. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.
Isaiah 53:3. He is despised.
Matthew 27:29. They mocked Him.
Isaiah 53:3. And rejected of men.
John 18:40. Not this man, but Barabbas.
Isaiah 53:3. A Man of Sorrows.
Mark 14:32. My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death.
Isaiah 53:3. And acquainted with grief.
John 11:35. Jesus wept.
Isaiah 53:3. And we hid as it were our faces from Him.
John 5:40. Ye will not come to Me that ye might have life.
Isaiah 53:3. He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
1 Corinthians 1:23. Unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.
Isaiah 53:4. Surely He hath borne our griefs.
Hebrews 4:15. Touched with the feeling of our infirmities.
Isaiah 53:4 And carried our sorrows.
John 11:38. Jesus again groaning in Himself, cometh to the grave.
Isaiah 53:4. Yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.
Luke 23:35. Let Him save Himself, if He be the Christ, the Chosen of God.
Isaiah 53:5. He was wounded for our transgressions.
1 Peter 3:18. Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust.
Isaiah 53:5. He was bruised for our iniquities.
John 19:1. Pilate took Jesus and scourged Him.
Isaiah 53:5. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him.
Colossians 1:20. Having made peace through the blood of His Cross.
Isaiah 53:5. And with His stripes we are healed.
Hebrews 10:10. Sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Isaiah 53:6. All we, like sheep, have gone astray.
Romans 3:23. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Isaiah 53:6. We have turned every one to his own way.
Philippians 2:21. All seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.
Isaiah 53:6. And the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21. He hath made Him to be sin for us.
Isaiah 53:7. He was oppressed.
Luke 22:44. Being in an agony He prayed the more earnestly.
Isaiah 53:7. And He was afflicted.
John 19:5. Wearing the crown of thorns.
Isaiah 53:7. Yet He opened not His mouth.
1 Peter 2:23. When He suffered He threatened not.
Isaiah 53:7. As a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.
Matthew 27:14. He answered him to never a word.
Isaiah 53:7. He was taken from prison and from judgment.
John 18:24. Now Annas had sent Him bound unto Caiaphas.
Isaiah 53:8. And His manner of life who shall declare. [At his trial, no man spoke up for His innocency]
John 18:20,21. I spake openly to the world...ask them that heard Me...behold they know what I said.
Isaiah 53:8. For He was cut off out of the land of the living.
Acts 2:23. By wicked hands crucified and slain.
Isaiah 53:8. For the transgression of My people was He smitten.
John 11:51,52. That Jesus should die fro that nation.
Isaiah 53:8. His grave was appointed with the wicked, but it was with the rich in his death. [The intention was to give Jesus the burial of a criminal along with the two thieves.]
Matthew 27:57-60. A rich man named Joseph...begged the body of Jesus, and laid it in his own tomb.
Isaiah 53:9. Because He had done no violence.
1 Peter 2:22. Who did no sin.
Isaiah 53:9. Neither was any deceit in His mouth.
1 Peter 2:22. Neither was guile found in His mouth.
Isaiah 53:9. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He hath put Him to grief.
Romans 8:32. He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all.
Isaiah 53:10. When Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin.
John 3:16. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
Isaiah 53:10. He shall see His seed.
John 3:16. That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.
Isaiah 53:10. He shall prolong His days.
John 3:16. But have everlasting life.
Isaiah 53:10. The pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
John 17:4. I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.
Isaiah 53:11. He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied.
Hebrews 12:2. Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross.
Isaiah 53:11. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many.
John 17:3. This is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 53:11. For he shall bear their iniquities.
1 Peter 2:24. His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree.
Isaiah 53:12. Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great.
Philippians 2:9. Wherefore God hath also highly exalted Him.
Isaiah 53:12. And he shall divide the spoil with the strong.
Colossians 2:15. Having spoiled principalities and powers.
Hebrews 3:2. Appointed heir of all things.
Isaiah 53:12. Because He hath poured out His soul unto death.
John 10:15. I lay down My life for the sheep.
Isaiah 53:12. And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Mark 15:27. And with Him they crucify two thieves.
Isaiah 53:12. And he bare the sin of many.
Hebrews 9:28. Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.
Isaiah 53:12. And made intercession for the transgressors.
Luke 23:34. Father, forgive them.
Hebrews 7:25. Ever liveth to make intercession for us.

Are you sure these prophecies don't point to Jesus Christ?

Click to expand...

Baha'u'llah has said the Prophecies are filled by all the Messengers, though outwardly not all appear to have been realised.

Thus if you do the same comparisons with knowledge of what Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah taught, likewise you could insert passages from their writings in the same way you have with the New Testament.

Regards Tony