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Crime

Is there a solution to crime, and will it end?

  • I believe crime will end

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • I don't believe crime will end

    Votes: 21 65.6%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • There is a solution to crime

    Votes: 15 46.9%
  • There is no solution to crime

    Votes: 4 12.5%

  • Total voters
    32

nPeace

Veteran Member
And I said that it is rubbish to believe that people under a theocratic rule would do as you said, rather than some choosing the keep the money for themselves. I then said that all people can be rubbish regardless of them being religious or not, meaning that it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not, some people would choose to take the money. Theocratic rule doesn't prevent that.
So what are you really saying then... that Peter pays for Paul, and Paul pays for all. One bad apple spoils the whole lump?
So one criminal caught and jailed, squashes any attempt to curb crime?
A crime free world is impossible even if the criminal is found guilty and removed?
Do you see everyone becoming 'robotically' programmed to do good?

Yes you do have that, but in my opinion, such rule is not as good as one that allow religious freedom, as we often see in those countries where a specific religious view is favoured, that those in minority are being treated very poorly.
I don't get the connection between religious freedom and a minority being treated poorly.
The theocratic rule I refer to, provides the opportunity for removing the ills of religious domination, and other crimes against humanity.

Furthermore, people might call themselves Muslims or Christians, but have a vastly different view on what exactly that means. Even to the point where they are killing each other. To me that is not a sign of a superior rule. But rather one that have failed.
Exactly! I totally agree.
So I don't understand why you keep bringing up something foreign to what I am talking about.
If these religions are so divided, even in the same country they reside, how does that compare to anything I described earlier?

Well I assumed when you use the phrasing Theocratic rule, that you refer to this, did I misunderstand that?

Theocracy is a form of government in which a deity of some type is recognized as the supreme ruling authority, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries that manage the day-to-day affairs of the government.
I highlighted in bold red, exactly what I meant. I spelled it out for you. That's not religious rule.
You haven't defined religious rule. I asked you to. Since you used the term, you must know what you meant, so explaining what you mean would help.

Well any education which is based on verifiable data or which uses an unbiased method encouraging students to study things.

Mathematics, chemistry, biology, computer science, medicin, psychology etc.
???
So is philosophy, including religion, theology, metaphysics, etc.

Well in that case, we could discuss that and see whether we would agree or not.
A "discussion" on whether education is good or bad? I have been pointing out why the education of the rule I described is good, for the past two or more hours.
You are telling me that you did not know that?

Sorry, you meant "doesn't" in the post, got confused about that.

Besides the examples already given, you also have certain countries, where half the population (women) are uneducated, not allowed to drive cars and all sorts of strange rules, which solely comes from whatever religion they have in that country.
This is due to laws of nations. I don't see what that has to do with divine rule.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Be mindful, I'm not a god believer. So my perspective wouldn't be from christian theology.

What do you mean our bodies aren't meant to die??? Do you feel the flesh, our organs, etc are supposed to live on to not die of natural causes? This is a medical fact. I'm not sure what you mean (I hope I'm not sure).
Our bodies were meant to die? Why? Because we die.
We were meant to get stabbed, hit by cars, commit suicide... Why? Because we get stabbed, run over by cars, commit suicide...
That's not a very reasonable way of looking at things, is it.

It means we can't stop the chain of events because our bodies are meant to age and die as we get older. The age dying process happens right when we are born. If it weren't true, we wouldn't need to figure out how to reverse the aging process. Scientists know our bodies die-why fight it by eternal life?
That's not science. You are mixing your ideas with science. Your ideas are not science. They are two different things.
Pollution kills millions of people. So do guns, knives, hammers, axes, etc. That's not science.

I'm trying to figure out what I was saying. There will always be crimes. Even if there wasn't (was a rhetorical question), our bodies will still die anyway even if there were no crimes. Maybe illnesses is a better example since it's not dependent on people's choices but the body's functioning whether it be developing cancer or having seizures. The body does what it's supposed to do just we value life and find ways to cure and treat illnesses so people can have a good long life.
I already get that you believe we must die. What I don't get, is why you believe that.
You believe that a person must get sick? Why?
Why don't some people get malaria, or chicken pox, or the flu, or syphilis, or seizures...
Some people may get a slight cold that leaves their body almost instantly, with the use of vitamin C. In fact, constant use of healthy vitamins, herbs and other natural products have allowed persons to stay free of sicknesses. If the germs are kept out of the body, they do not deal with what others have to deal with because of poor sanitation, etc.
So, it is not the body. It's what enters the body, from the environment in which we live.

You're mixing god and science. They don't compliment each other.
That's not true. ...and yes they do.
Bear in mind that you did not use one single scientific fact.

This is only for believers. You're getting away from scientific views of life, reversing the aging process, and crimes to religious conversation. I don't share these views and can't figure how it relates to stopping crimes that "every person" would agree with in regards to christ.
Yes, unbelievers do dismiss the evidence, but that does not mean it is not there.
Scientific view of life? You mean your ideas don't you. Provide this scientific view of life you imagine in a scientific paper, and then you would be doing more than repeating what you believe.

Below.

If we had corporation and not having people at the same mindset, we wouldn't need to bring in jesus christ to solve things. Cooperation does not have jesus at its core without agreed consensus that christ is the main solution.
What's cooperation? The process of working together to the same end.
Why is that not having the same mindset? Please explain.

Is there another solution you'd think the world would agree with that doesn't involve christ?
Huh? That was my question to you.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Our bodies were meant to die? Why? Because we die.
We were meant to get stabbed, hit by cars, commit suicide... Why? Because we get stabbed, run over by cars, commit suicide...
That's not a very reasonable way of looking at things, is it.

I must be saying this wrong because that sounds a bit mixed up from what I'm saying.

Our bodies are meant to die-meaning, the body and brain itself (and therefore mind) deteriorates biologically once we are born. The purpose of the body (if that's what you're asking?) isn't to live forever. I never read a scientific explanation of how we are supposed to live forever. Christianity and other like religions teach that, but science?

Think of a plant. It grows, it whither, it dies. So do we and every other living thing out there. We're not special in these regards. I don't have scientific words to describe it but meant meaning the body's function not purpose. Life just is.

As for the meant to be stabbed et cetera, I'm not sure how that connects. Our bodies are meant to die as the function of how biological living animals and everything works. I'm not sure how meant to be hit by cars mirrors the body's function to naturally die. One is an accident and the other is inherent part of being human.

That's not science. You are mixing your ideas with science. Your ideas are not science. They are two different things.

Pollution kills millions of people. So do guns, knives, hammers, axes, etc. That's not science

Your religious ideas aren't science either-so we're squared?

I'm totally not getting what your point is, though.

I mean, you don't believe we start dying when we are born?
I don't know if I'm just confused or are you talking about something different but I'm sure you know the body ages, right?

I didn't say guns, knives, hammers, and axes... what's the connection?

I already get that you believe we must die. What I don't get, is why you believe that.
You believe that a person must get sick? Why?
Why don't some people get malaria, or chicken pox, or the flu, or syphilis, or seizures...
Some people may get a slight cold that leaves their body almost instantly, with the use of vitamin C. In fact, constant use of healthy vitamins, herbs and other natural products have allowed persons to stay free of sicknesses. If the germs are kept out of the body, they do not deal with what others have to deal with because of poor sanitation, etc.
So, it is not the body. It's what enters the body, from the environment in which we live.

You'd have to find a quote that says "people must die." I said our bodies were meant to die-the function of our bodies is to age and die. It's more about acceptance.

Whether we are born sick, have an illness we didn't contribute to, or contributed to an illness say by smoking, the body does what it does to try to live a full natural lifespan. Illnesses prevent that birth/age/dying process. The body and brain knows what it's supposed to do to combat illnesses.

That doesn't mean we let ourselves get sick or put ourselves in front of a fast moving car. It just means we accept that we age and die. That's just the fact of life. But I'm not sure how this connects to crimes since the body's function isn't to cause car accidents.

When people die of natural causes, it's not because of an outside influence or anything like that. It's the body's gradual aging and the organs etc begin to stop working. Depending on our overall health, some people die naturally at 100 while others sooner than that. So far we know, the current lifespan is about 110 or so (don't quote me). But we don't stay young just because we had a healthy life. We age. We die.

Unfortunately, outside influences make death comes sooner (ages and destroys the body faster), but to those who don't have illnesses etc, they still die-as their body is meant to (the biological function) do.

That's not true. ...and yes they do.
Bear in mind that you did not use one single scientific fact.

It wouldn't be necessary to quote scripture if we were talking about science and not jesus and god.

You don't believe we die??? I'm still confused.

I can find sooo many facts of our biological functions of life, age, and death--but I'm sure you mean something else than quoting a science book? Right?

I thought this was common knowledge.

Yes, unbelievers do dismiss the evidence, but that does not mean it is not there.
Scientific view of life? You mean your ideas don't you. Provide this scientific view of life you imagine in a scientific paper, and then you would be doing more than repeating what you believe.

Your religious ideas are mixed in this (per your comment above).

What? I'm not religious-just giving you basics that we die biologically as so we are created biologically. It has nothing to do with this conversation, just the facts of life.

I'm sure you getting at something else, right??? I hope?

What's cooperation? The process of working together to the same end.
Why is that not having the same mindset? Please explain.

My point is without christ.

Huh? That was my question to you.

I didn't mention christ. I said we should have the same (agreed) mindset. You mentioned the central figure should be christ. So, I mentioned how I would solve the problem (above). Is there another solution you can think of that we would all agree that doesn't involve christ?
 
Last edited:

Nimos

Well-Known Member
So what are you really saying then... that Peter pays for Paul, and Paul pays for all. One bad apple spoils the whole lump?
So one criminal caught and jailed, squashes any attempt to curb crime?
A crime free world is impossible even if the criminal is found guilty and removed?
Do you see everyone becoming 'robotically' programmed to do good?
But we are already "programmed". The society you are raised in programs you to function in it. Your parents teaches you how things are done, because they were raised in it as well. Society slowly evolves in various directions, which is then passed on to the next generation.

For instance, in most countries it was no problem for teachers to hit students that didn't behave, my parents experienced this, but that is completely unacceptable today. The same goes with everything else, we are taught that money have values and that you can buy things for them. This is then competing with a person's own personal moral. And some might be poor, so 100$ might go a long way, some will see it as wrong to take a 100$ bill from the street and so forth. Its not black and white.

But if society were changed, so people had access to whatever they needed, clearly they wouldn't care to steal them, over a few generations people would adapt to this and it would be the new normal. So if that is what you mean with being programmed, then yes, but it is no different than how it already is.

I don't get the connection between religious freedom and a minority being treated poorly.
The theocratic rule I refer to, provides the opportunity for removing the ills of religious domination, and other crimes against humanity.
But it wouldn't change that such rule would not be based on common sense or what the majority of the population seem as being good based on a voting system. If rules are made based on what some people believe a divine authority say, then there can't be any discussion. Because none of it would be based on a rational approach, but rather what some people think ought to be true, because that is how they interpret the scriptures. If some minority disagree, we know from history, that they are either suppressed or treated bad. It is happening with muslim minorities, Christian minorities, atheists minority and everything else. And in some cases you can be killed or jailed for being an atheist. Whether its by the government itself, or random religious people that take matters into their own hands.

If these religions are so divided, even in the same country they reside, how does that compare to anything I described earlier?
Because what you are saying, would end the exact same way. People of other faith, would disagree with what you are saying, because they believe you are following the wrong thing. So how would you handle that? when they won't listen or accept what you are saying?

???
So is philosophy, including religion, theology, metaphysics, etc.
Yes, there are educations that deals with these from a scientific point of view. But people being taught what or how to understand the meaning of scriptures and how that should apply to society is not.

If I taught you that Adam and Eve is true, because the Bible is inspired by God... then that is not me educating you. If I however explain to you, why this were added to the bible and what meaning it could have, based on whatever studies have been made regarding it and compared to other cultures having similar creation stories then it would be education. Because I can point to examples, interpretations and comparisons made from other historical documents and findings. Whereas me claiming that a particular God is real, when there is no evidence for it, is not.

A "discussion" on whether education is good or bad? I have been pointing out why the education of the rule I described is good, for the past two or more hours.
You are telling me that you did not know that?
No, im saying that, if there is some particular education that you might consider good, like teaching that God of the bible is real, then we could discuss that.

This is due to laws of nations. I don't see what that has to do with divine rule.
Well the laws comes from some scriptures and is not based on what one would consider a rational approach. In all western countries and a lot of asian countries as well. Women have clearly demonstrated that they are fully capable of working and driving cars, so why wouldn't these countries instantly allow them to do this as well?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I must be saying this wrong because that sounds a bit mixed up from what I'm saying.

Our bodies are meant to die-meaning, the body and brain itself (and therefore mind) deteriorates biologically once we are born.
Can you quote the scientific paper that says that the body and brain itself (and therefore mind) deteriorates biologically once we are born.

I don't recall where I saw it, but I saw information that shows new connections are created in the brain, removing excess neurons. So it is assumed that this is a process that is actually beneficial, rather than detrimental. In other words, it's a programmed process, just like cell division.
It does not have to be a bad thing.

New nerve cells -- even in old age
After birth the brain loses many nerve cells and this continues throughout life -- most neurons are formed before birth, after which many excess neurons degenerate. However, there are some cells that are still capable of division in old age -- in the brains of mice, at least. According to scientists from the Max Planck Institute of Immunobiology in Freiburg, different types of neuronal stem cells exist that can create new neurons. While they divide continuously and create new neurons in young animals, a large proportion of the cells in older animals persist in a state of dormancy. However, the production of new cells can be reactivated, for example, through physical activity or epileptic seizures. What happens in mice could also be applicable to humans as neurons that are capable of dividing also occur in the human brain into adulthood.

The purpose of the body (if that's what you're asking?) isn't to live forever. I never read a scientific explanation of how we are supposed to live forever. Christianity and other like religions teach that, but science?
You don't know that the purpose of the body isn't to live forever. All we know is that there are certain causes for death, but we don't know all of those causes. We don't understand why cell repair eventually stop, so we don't know why the body dies really.
There are scientists who are working on it.
Maybe you think they are wacko.

Will they succeed in their efforts? That not the issue I am concerned with.
I'm simply saying that because we see the various defects in the body, it doesn't mean that's the body's original purpose. It doesn't mean that the way it was supposed to be.

Think of a plant. It grows, it whither, it dies. So do we and every other living thing out there. We're not special in these regards. I don't have scientific words to describe it but meant meaning the body's function not purpose. Life just is.
To me, comparing plant to humans is like saying plants have brains. We know that's not the case.
Everything is different.

As for the meant to be stabbed et cetera, I'm not sure how that connects. Our bodies are meant to die as the function of how biological living animals and everything works. I'm not sure how meant to be hit by cars mirrors the body's function to naturally die. One is an accident and the other is inherent part of being human.
Inherited yes. I agree.
The thing is, inherited is not original.

Your religious ideas aren't science either-so we're squared?
No we are not squared, because I was not using my ideas as science. You are.

I'm totally not getting what your point is, though.

I mean, you don't believe we start dying when we are born?
I don't know if I'm just confused or are you talking about something different but I'm sure you know the body ages, right?
If you think these questions matter, clearly you are missing the point.

I didn't say guns, knives, hammers, and axes... what's the connection?
I understand you don't get it.

You'd have to find a quote that says "people must die." I said our bodies were meant to die-the function of our bodies is to age and die. It's more about acceptance.

Whether we are born sick, have an illness we didn't contribute to, or contributed to an illness say by smoking, the body does what it does to try to live a full natural lifespan. Illnesses prevent that birth/age/dying process. The body and brain knows what it's supposed to do to combat illnesses.

That doesn't mean we let ourselves get sick or put ourselves in front of a fast moving car. It just means we accept that we age and die. That's just the fact of life. But I'm not sure how this connects to crimes since the body's function isn't to cause car accidents.

When people die of natural causes, it's not because of an outside influence or anything like that. It's the body's gradual aging and the organs etc begin to stop working. Depending on our overall health, some people die naturally at 100 while others sooner than that. So far we know, the current lifespan is about 110 or so (don't quote me). But we don't stay young just because we had a healthy life. We age. We die.

Unfortunately, outside influences make death comes sooner (ages and destroys the body faster), but to those who don't have illnesses etc, they still die-as their body is meant to (the biological function) do.
No one here is denying death occurs, and I already acknowledged that you accept death because you are accustomed to it, and you assume it is the body's original "fate".

It wouldn't be necessary to quote scripture if we were talking about science and not jesus and god.

You don't believe we die??? I'm still confused.
Whattttt??????

I can find sooo many facts of our biological functions of life, age, and death--but I'm sure you mean something else than quoting a science book? Right?

I thought this was common knowledge.
No. It is not common knowledge why we age.

Your religious ideas are mixed in this (per your comment above).

What? I'm not religious-just giving you basics that we die biologically as so we are created biologically. It has nothing to do with this conversation, just the facts of life.

I'm sure you getting at something else, right??? I hope?


My point is without christ.


I didn't mention christ. I said we should have the same (agreed) mindset. You mentioned the central figure should be christ. So, I mentioned how I would solve the problem (above). Is there another solution you can think of that we would all agree that doesn't involve christ?
Now I am lost. What were we talking about?
My point is this... What is it that would cause people to have the same mindset? Or... What is it that would cause people to cooperate?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Can you quote the scientific paper that says that the body and brain itself (and therefore mind) deteriorates biologically once we are born.

I'll have to come back to the rest in a minute.

I can't think of another way to put it (or maybe I'm reading you wrong) but are you serious?

You don't believe we age?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But we are already "programmed". The society you are raised in programs you to function in it. Your parents teaches you how things are done, because they were raised in it as well. Society slowly evolves in various directions, which is then passed on to the next generation.

For instance, in most countries it was no problem for teachers to hit students that didn't behave, my parents experienced this, but that is completely unacceptable today. The same goes with everything else, we are taught that money have values and that you can buy things for them. This is then competing with a person's own personal moral. And some might be poor, so 100$ might go a long way, some will see it as wrong to take a 100$ bill from the street and so forth. Its not black and white.

But if society were changed, so people had access to whatever they needed, clearly they wouldn't care to steal them, over a few generations people would adapt to this and it would be the new normal. So if that is what you mean with being programmed, then yes, but it is no different than how it already is.
I'm just trying to establish a clear direction and focus, so we don't engage in unnecessary rambling.
So you are saying that if everyone had the same things equally, it would be a good solution to crime. Is that correct?
So no poor people or nations - no poverty.
What's your program for accomplishing this? How are you thinking of remove greed?

But it wouldn't change that such rule would not be based on common sense or what the majority of the population seem as being good based on a voting system. If rules are made based on what some people believe a divine authority say, then there can't be any discussion. Because none of it would be based on a rational approach, but rather what some people think ought to be true, because that is how they interpret the scriptures. If some minority disagree, we know from history, that they are either suppressed or treated bad. It is happening with muslim minorities, Christian minorities, atheists minority and everything else. And in some cases you can be killed or jailed for being an atheist. Whether its by the government itself, or random religious people that take matters into their own hands.
Sounds like you are pumping your fist already. :)
protester-1654399-1398751.png

I'll come back to this.

Because what you are saying, would end the exact same way. People of other faith, would disagree with what you are saying, because they believe you are following the wrong thing. So how would you handle that? when they won't listen or accept what you are saying?
Good question.
I won't be handling it. However, I'll come back to this

Yes, there are educations that deals with these from a scientific point of view. But people being taught what or how to understand the meaning of scriptures and how that should apply to society is not.

If I taught you that Adam and Eve is true, because the Bible is inspired by God... then that is not me educating you. If I however explain to you, why this were added to the bible and what meaning it could have, based on whatever studies have been made regarding it and compared to other cultures having similar creation stories then it would be education. Because I can point to examples, interpretations and comparisons made from other historical documents and findings. Whereas me claiming that a particular God is real, when there is no evidence for it, is not.


No, im saying that, if there is some particular education that you might consider good, like teaching that God of the bible is real, then we could discuss that.
I don't see why teaching that God of the bible is real has to be an important issue, in identifying whether a particular educational program is effective and successful or not.
I think the question is answered by the evidence.
So for example, if teachers found that 99.9% of all the students who lived by the standards of a particular law code, proved to be well behaved, and not problematic, compared to the other students, that would give evidence that the law code carries a high moral code.
If the same is true in cases of STDs, teen pregnancies, drunkenness, etc., then that would be evidence again.
When all the evidence is added up, it makes a strong case for questions raised about God.
However, regarding opposers and dissenters, who really might be considered protesters, that is where the law of the particular rule would be of consideration.
Recall, I mentioned that the educational program is just one element, but other elements would need to be utilized.

Well the laws comes from some scriptures and is not based on what one would consider a rational approach. In all western countries and a lot of asian countries as well. Women have clearly demonstrated that they are fully capable of working and driving cars, so why wouldn't these countries instantly allow them to do this as well?
I don't see why people who comply with divine education would have do deal with issues like that.
Could you show me how, and why?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This isn't meant to be mean or anything. I found numbering helps since I write long posts and the past few weeks no one has been really reading them.

"Can you quote the scientific paper that says that the body and brain itself (and therefore mind) deteriorates biologically once we are born."

1. This is what happens in the aging process. Our bodies grow feeble as we age (aging starts at birth)

I'm at a total loss as to how you don't know this that you would ask for a scientific paper for biological facts of the human body. Google gave me millions of results so I'd have to find a academic paper on it if you really really want.

I don't recall where I saw it, but I saw information that shows new connections are created in the brain, removing excess neurons. So it is assumed that this is a process that is actually beneficial, rather than detrimental. In other words, it's a programmed process, just like cell division.

2. In your link and quote, it does look like scientist know we age (neurons deteriorate). If the body and brain didn't age at birth, why would they find ways to reactivate neurons from deteriorating and why would they try to reverse the aging process?

You don't know that the purpose of the body isn't to live forever. All we know is that there are certain causes for death, but we don't know all of those causes. We don't understand why cell repair eventually stop, so we don't know why the body dies really.

3. When your body dies from birth (hence the info above), why would there be any other purpose for the body to do? I mean, you can put religious purposes to it-as in we're supposed to live forever, et cetera. That's just the function of the body.

I'll say function rather than purpose.

Will they succeed in their efforts? That not the issue I am concerned with.
I'm simply saying that because we see the various defects in the body, it doesn't mean that's the body's original purpose. It doesn't mean that the way it was supposed to be.

4. We're talking pass each other. I'm saying the function of the body is to be born, age, and die not live forever. As for is it supposed to do that, that sounds like a religious question in my opinion (since it's an opinion, I can't really back it up). I never really thought about whether the body is "supposed" to die. Meaning, reasons about life after death or eternal life has never interest me.

In my opinion, I'd say that's how it is supposed to be since we see that in everything, living being, and plant around us. Since I'm not religious, I don't have that eternal purpose behind what drives everything-so, I think you're coming from a different perspective than I thought (especially after mentioning jesus, god, and religion awhile back).

To me, comparing plant to humans is like saying plants have brains. We know that's not the case.
Everything is different

I don't see it different in the biological aspect, for lack of better words. We age and die differently, but the pattern is life isn't forever.

Inherited yes. I agree.
The thing is, inherited is not original.

I believe it is. I just think many humans want us to live on or be perfect whether saying that was what we're "supposed" to be like from the start or when we die "we" will still go on. I never got that bug.

No we are not squared, because I was not using my ideas as science. You are.

I was giving opinions not scientific facts. Maybe "in my opinion" would help?

If you think these questions matter, clearly you are missing the point.

It was in reference to the aging question. They seem to based on the link you gave me.

I understand you don't get it.

Not with that analogy, no.

No one here is denying death occurs, and I already acknowledged that you accept death because you are accustomed to it, and you assume it is the body's original "fate".

Yes. It's my opinion or belief. Stating them as fact is a different story. I don't remember doing that.

No. It is not common knowledge why we age.

Why as in our function of the human (animals, etc) not an inherent purpose.

Now I am lost. What were we talking about?
My point is this... What is it that would cause people to have the same mindset? Or... What is it that would cause people to cooperate?

How can we solve the crime situation together without the central figure being christ?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
This isn't meant to be mean or anything. I found numbering helps since I write long posts and the past few weeks no one has been really reading them.
Organizing is good. It makes things easier. Thanks.

1. This is what happens in the aging process. Our bodies grow feeble as we age (aging starts at birth)

I'm at a total loss as to how you don't know this that you would ask for a scientific paper for biological facts of the human body. Google gave me millions of results so I'd have to find a academic paper on it if you really really want.
If it's so knowable, why don't you know where to find one simple science quote? Unless it was just your stated belief.

2. In your link and quote, it does look like scientist know we age (neurons deteriorate). If the body and brain didn't age at birth, why would they find ways to reactivate neurons from deteriorating and why would they try to reverse the aging process?
Because it happens over time... like when we grow certain cells no longer regenerate, and repair. among other things. All the while we are growing, because that's what cell are supposed to do for us.

3. When your body dies from birth (hence the info above), why would there be any other purpose for the body to do? I mean, you can put religious purposes to it-as in we're supposed to live forever, et cetera. That's just the function of the body.

I'll say function rather than purpose.
Our bodies do not die from birth. Say whattt?

4. We're talking pass each other. I'm saying the function of the body is to be born, age, and die not live forever. As for is it supposed to do that, that sounds like a religious question in my opinion (since it's an opinion, I can't really back it up). I never really thought about whether the body is "supposed" to die. Meaning, reasons about life after death or eternal life has never interest me.

In my opinion, I'd say that's how it is supposed to be since we see that in everything, living being, and plant around us. Since I'm not religious, I don't have that eternal purpose behind what drives everything-so, I think you're coming from a different perspective than I thought (especially after mentioning jesus, god, and religion awhile back).


I don't see it different in the biological aspect, for lack of better words. We age and die differently, but the pattern is life isn't forever.


I believe it is. I just think many humans want us to live on or be perfect whether saying that was what we're "supposed" to be like from the start or when we die "we" will still go on. I never got that bug.
How can inherited be original? Do you know what it means to inherit, and what it means to be original? One follows the other. They can never be at the same point.

I was giving opinions not scientific facts. Maybe "in my opinion" would help?


It was in reference to the aging question. They seem to based on the link you gave me.


Not with that analogy, no.


Yes. It's my opinion or belief. Stating them as fact is a different story. I don't remember doing that.


Why as in our function of the human (animals, etc) not an inherent purpose.
No one knows why we age. There are lots of theories.

How can we solve the crime situation together without the central figure being christ?
That;s my question.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
So you are saying that if everyone had the same things equally, it would be a good solution to crime. Is that correct?
So no poor people or nations - no poverty.
If people had access to what they needed for surviving and living a decent life. Then that would be a good solution against crime. There wouldn't be anything such as poverty, because those which didn't have any, could just get it if the wanted. There could still be nations as there would still be laws and ruling, it would most likely be a different type than what we had today.

What's your program for accomplishing this? How are you thinking of remove greed?
I think for the most part, greed is something that is taught to us due to the way society works. Everything is given a value and compared to everything else. Whether its a physical product or even humans themselves, so education would be a lot different than it is today, as you probably wouldn't work simply to pay your bills, but rather to better society. I would think that we would become more scientific, spiritual, artistic and caring towards each other. Such as we would see in some tribal communities, where they work in collaboration for the greater good of the village rather than trying to get an edge over others.

Assuming that humans by default is greedy, I think is false. But that this in much higher degree is taught to us, true constantly having to be compared towards something or someone else.

I don't see why teaching that God of the bible is real has to be an important issue, in identifying whether a particular educational program is effective and successful or not.
Because its about approaching reality based on facts rather than superstition. And teaching people how to live or behave based on something which can't be verified is going to interfere with such process. People are obviously free to believe in a God, if they like. But if such believe starts to influence how a person think others ought to live, then that is an issue.

If I believe in God A and you in God B as being the only true God, then we will clash at some point, because we can't both be right. If I then believe that my God teaches us to live in a certain way, which you disagree with, then how do we solve such issue? We would simply be debating what is best based on our own personal superstitions rather than facts and what is the best solution.

I don't see why people who comply with divine education would have do deal with issues like that.
Could you show me how, and why?
Not exactly sure what you mean, so might misunderstand you.

But as I wrote above, these rules are not there because they make sense or are the best solution. They have been put in place, because these people believe that women in this case, based on their religious beliefs, should not have these rights. Which is a result of a highly religious cultures, teaching people that these things are true because some unverified scriptures either say so, or have been interpreted to have such meaning.

This is clearly based on an irrational approach of how society ought to work. Rather than asking the question like: "Are women incapable of driving cars?" and obviously the answer is "No", we have absolutely nothing to back up, why such thing should not be allowed. The same goes with asking the question: "Are women incapable of working or doing a good job?" and again, nothing even remotely suggest that it is not the case. So making rules that they shouldn't be allowed to do this, is not based on a rationality or thoughtful ideas, but is completely driven by religious nonsense. Which in many cases is a result of societies which are highly dominated by religious rules. Because they are not always founded in logic or facts, as much as what people believe certain scriptures mean.

But clearly this is not all religious people that feel like this, because women are allowed to both work and drive in most countries. But even in these countries it have been a long battle. It's not really that many years ago, that women were considered to unintellectual to vote or that it was a waste given them an education. Because obviously the man should work and women should look after the house and kids. And some cultures still believe in that this should be the way, so obviously you will have clashes between these cultures. So your divine education would collide with theirs and again, there is not really any way to solve it. Because it is purely based on your interpretations versus theirs, without a shadow of rational thought process of why one thing makes sense over another.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If people had access to what they needed for surviving and living a decent life. Then that would be a good solution against crime. There wouldn't be anything such as poverty, because those which didn't have any, could just get it if the wanted. There could still be nations as there would still be laws and ruling, it would most likely be a different type than what we had today.
I guess we could agree on that to a greater extent.
This is what is on the books of the theocratic rule I am referring to.
Isaiah 65:17-25
According to this mandate every person will have equal access to land, and share its resources. Even the animals will be sharing.
22ca09fa7e58a9d20b7e5eea11bbe588.jpg


Revelation 21:1-4
Included in the program, is the promise that all the wicked or evil will be remove, and no one would see them. Psalms 37:9-11
maxresdefault.jpg


How do you see this happening with your system of disunited governments, and nations?

I think for the most part, greed is something that is taught to us due to the way society works. Everything is given a value and compared to everything else. Whether its a physical product or even humans themselves, so education would be a lot different than it is today, as you probably wouldn't work simply to pay your bills, but rather to better society. I would think that we would become more scientific, spiritual, artistic and caring towards each other. Such as we would see in some tribal communities, where they work in collaboration for the greater good of the village rather than trying to get an edge over others.

Assuming that humans by default is greedy, I think is false. But that this in much higher degree is taught to us, true constantly having to be compared towards something or someone else.
Okay. So you don't think humans are greedy by nature, and needs to be.
I would agree that even though we may be inclined to greed, it is not inherently an impulsive nature.

I'm not sure what you are saying that the way we are taught by society has to do with how people are, but if the majority of people are greedy, how do you propose that they will change?
If by education, what form of education, and what institute, or by whom?
You should know my answer by now, since I repeatedly mentioned the form of education that eradicates greed from the hearts of men.
Actually the divine law book says what is needed to remove greed. Galatians 5:22, 23
This also can be tested, and has been, since persons submitting to theocratic order, has benefited in this way, from its educational program.

Because its about approaching reality based on facts rather than superstition. And teaching people how to live or behave based on something which can't be verified is going to interfere with such process. People are obviously free to believe in a God, if they like. But if such believe starts to influence how a person think others ought to live, then that is an issue.
You speak of this as though everything you believe is verified.
People, including you yourself, believe and teach things that have not been verified, and yet that has not change the crime rate for the better. It has not improved people's relationships... lowered domestic abuses.... improved respect for law enforcement or authority... and many other things. See a list here.

Yet the things you call unverified and superstitious are only that way to a biased and subjective opinion, because something that is verified just needs to be demonstrated that it is true, accurate, or justified. It doesn't need to be accepted by all.
That's why I and billions of people don't have to accept your belief in an unverified common ancestor... even though you put it outside of superstition.

The more important thing is, what does the evidence show, as to the results of the particular teachings?
Is that why you ignored the part of my post with information you said you were interested in considering?
Why did you not consider it. I'll post it again, just in case you overlooked it by accident.

Whether you consider it a superstition or not...
I think the question is answered by the evidence.
So for example, if teachers found that 99.9% of all the students who lived by the standards of a particular law code, proved to be well behaved, and not problematic, compared to the other students, that would give evidence that the law code carries a high moral code.
If the same is true in cases of STDs, teen pregnancies, drunkenness, etc., then that would be evidence again.
When all the evidence is added up, it makes a strong case for questions raised about God.

If I believe in God A and you in God B as being the only true God, then we will clash at some point, because we can't both be right. If I then believe that my God teaches us to live in a certain way, which you disagree with, then how do we solve such issue? We would simply be debating what is best based on our own personal superstitions rather than facts and what is the best solution.
We have the same situation with government - party A and party B.
We have the same situation with governmental laws, bills, etc. and we have People vs State, etc.
How do you deal with that issue.

I mentioned how the issue will be dealt with. Did you miss it? Here it is again.
The theocratic rule I refer to, provides the opportunity for removing the ills of religious domination, and other crimes against humanity.
However, regarding opposers and dissenters, who really might be considered protesters, that is where the law of the particular rule would be of consideration.
Recall, I mentioned that the educational program is just one element, but other elements would need to be utilized.

Not exactly sure what you mean, so might misunderstand you.

But as I wrote above, these rules are not there because they make sense or are the best solution. They have been put in place, because these people believe that women in this case, based on their religious beliefs, should not have these rights. Which is a result of a highly religious cultures, teaching people that these things are true because some unverified scriptures either say so, or have been interpreted to have such meaning.

This is clearly based on an irrational approach of how society ought to work. Rather than asking the question like: "Are women incapable of driving cars?" and obviously the answer is "No", we have absolutely nothing to back up, why such thing should not be allowed. The same goes with asking the question: "Are women incapable of working or doing a good job?" and again, nothing even remotely suggest that it is not the case. So making rules that they shouldn't be allowed to do this, is not based on a rationality or thoughtful ideas, but is completely driven by religious nonsense. Which in many cases is a result of societies which are highly dominated by religious rules. Because they are not always founded in logic or facts, as much as what people believe certain scriptures mean.

But clearly this is not all religious people that feel like this, because women are allowed to both work and drive in most countries. But even in these countries it have been a long battle. It's not really that many years ago, that women were considered to unintellectual to vote or that it was a waste given them an education. Because obviously the man should work and women should look after the house and kids. And some cultures still believe in that this should be the way, so obviously you will have clashes between these cultures. So your divine education would collide with theirs and again, there is not really any way to solve it. Because it is purely based on your interpretations versus theirs, without a shadow of rational thought process of why one thing makes sense over another.
I'm not sure why you don't understand, since I explained. Is that the part you didn't respond to? Perhaps you missed it, I don't know.
Those issues do not exist under the mandates of theocratic rule.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
How do you see this happening with your system of disunited governments, and nations?
The only way I can see it happening is when people learn to value the greater good for all humans rather than individual people, cultures etc. So in that regard I agree with the overall idea that the bible speak of. But I strongly disagree that such thing should come through the belief in a God. It has to come from reasoning, like you probably won't find a lot of people living today, that wouldn't agree that killing animals to the point of extinction is probably not the best idea when it come to our chance of surviving. We don't need to hide behind the concept of a God to figure that out, we have enough knowledge today in order to explain why this is a fundamentally bad idea, the reason we are capable of doing this, is due to science and the technology, that allow us to study how each of these species and lifeforms interact with each other, not only locally, but globally. So we have rather good information, now we just need our economic and political system to catch up and that is obviously not easy as long as economics is the governing factor and is based on consumption and profit, its not exactly something that is optimal when it comes to sustainability. This is where the main issue is, whether you have a religious rule or not, it still can't get rid of this. That is why I think the only solution to a lot of these problems we have like crime, poverty etc. Has to be solved by changing how we assign value to thing.

How insane is it, that we have people starving in the world and then you have people like Bill gates that make 10+ million dollars a week. And it's not to point fingers at him, but I think it tells a lot about how we are doing things wrong.

To me the big question is, is it possible to change this system? And to me the only way to do it, is for things to not have any value or for things to not be a constant competition, but where the end goal and collaboration to solve problems is the main goal and not how much money you can pocket.

Okay. So you don't think humans are greedy by nature, and needs to be.
I would agree that even though we may be inclined to greed, it is not inherently an impulsive nature.
Greed as I see it, comes when you have scarcity. If you worry about being able to feed your family or whether you would end up sleeping on the street, or if it simply gives you what you could consider an advantages over others, then greed is a possible reaction.

But if you removed those, there is not really any reason to greed anything. And if people were taught why collaboration is better so everyone can live good lives, except a selected few, then that would go a long way as well. If we for a moment imagine that things were done differently, then everyone could live in luxury, its not that we don't have the resources on Earth and it probably doesn't take "that many" years, before mining the asteroid belts in our solar system is possible, which will give us almost infinite resources, especially, if a lot more effort were put into space programs, we have Mars as well, the Moon, lots of other moons around other planets as well. Obviously all this would require that we were sensible in regards to how we recycled things, stop all the use and throw away mentality etc. Made sure that products were designed and manufactured for the best possible quality and could easily be repaired, again to avoid constantly having to replace them in the name of profit.

It's definitely possible, but not with an economic system that works the way it does.

I'm not sure what you are saying that the way we are taught by society has to do with how people are, but if the majority of people are greedy, how do you propose that they will change?
I don't have a clear solution to that, my best guess though is that we are going to be forced to change when robotics and automations really kicks in. Because the only way the economic system can function is if people have money to spend. But humans can't compete with robots when it comes to a huge amount of jobs. However robots don't buy anything, so if people can't afford to buy things because they either don't have a job or are forced to work for poor salaries, then the system will collapse. And I think that is what is going to happen, it will come to a point where there is simply not enough purchasing power in the population to keep things going and first the government will probably make help packages to make sure that people have money to spend and to try to keep the system artificial alive, but eventually it will simply not make sense and then I think changes will be made. If it doesn't happen like that, then I think it will end in huge uprisings from people all around the world that are desperate.

What we are going to face in the future in regards to robotics is nothing we have ever faced before, we are used to having machines replace certain jobs or to help us being more effective. But when we are getting completely replaced then its not easy. Imagine a truck driver, sure they have gotten better trucks, automatic lifts to help them etc. But when the truck starts driving by it self, then he is not needed anymore, taxi drivers, ships, trains etc. Where would all these people go? Million of dollars are being invested into staff free shops, supermarkets etc. Where do they go? Military personnel will be replaced, even lawyers etc. will be, when you have computers that can gather all the informations faster and cross references them with laws etc. People are greatly mistaken as I see it, if they believe that their jobs are secured in the future. People want profits and human salary is a huge cost, especially if they can be replaced by a machine that works night and day, never complain and make far less errors.

I mentioned how the issue will be dealt with. Did you miss it? Here it is again.
I didn't meant to skip it.

So for example, if teachers found that 99.9% of all the students who lived by the standards of a particular law code, proved to be well behaved, and not problematic, compared to the other students, that would give evidence that the law code carries a high moral code.
Sure, having students for example that doesn't beat up each other constantly is better than if they did.

When all the evidence is added up, it makes a strong case for questions raised about God.
Not sure what you mean by this? God is not exactly a role model when it comes to good behaviour. Applying dictatorial rules, I doubt would be better compared to reason and making people understand why one thing is better than another.

We have the same situation with government - party A and party B.
We have the same situation with governmental laws, bills, etc. and we have People vs State, etc.
How do you deal with that issue.
We vote about it. But you can't vote whether Jesus is the son of God, God himself or just a prophet.

The theocratic rule I refer to, provides the opportunity for removing the ills of religious domination, and other crimes against humanity.
However, regarding opposers and dissenters, who really might be considered protesters, that is where the law of the particular rule would be of consideration.
Recall, I mentioned that the educational program is just one element, but other elements would need to be utilized.
But you must know that this would never work. Again religious beliefs are not something you can sort of agree on. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God and I as an atheist say that I don't think so. Its not like we can agree to just refer to Jesus as God's step son, and sort of meet in the middle. Either he is what you claim or he isn't. And if he isn't then the bible is wrong, but if he is, then clearly atheism is wrong. We can agree to accept each others views. But the moment we have to discuss something important like abortion or whatever, if your view on it, is based on the bible, rather than you spending the time considering the for or against, then we have a conflict. Because I don't accept any argument regarding this that is based on some religious scriptures, when they are not verified.

I'm not sure why you don't understand, since I explained. Is that the part you didn't respond to? Perhaps you missed it, I don't know.
Those issues do not exist under the mandates of theocratic rule.
Im not sure, if I still didn't answer it. Try to formulate it in another way and Ill try to answer it. I miss things here and there :)
 
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