Did Christ really exist ?

joelr said:

Every religion says their God is perfect, how is that even a point?
"In Suppliants, of Aeschylus, Zeus is described as: "king of kings, of the happy most happy, of the perfect most perfect power, blessed Zeus"
Sup. 522. "

"Savior gods" was the actual type of gods that Jesus was modeled after? They all go through some struggle, often defeat death and save baptized members of the group by getting them into the afterlife and granting personal salvation?

Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier
Not in ancient Asia. Or anywhere else. Only the West, from Mesopotamia to North Africa and Europe. There was a very common and popular mytheme that had arisen in the Hellenistic period—from at least the death of Alexander the Great in the 300s B.C. through the Roman period, until at least Constantine in the 300s A.D. Nearly every culture created and popularized one: the Egyptians had one, the Thracians had one, the Syrians had one, the Persians had one, and so on. The Jews were actually late to the party in building one of their own, in the form of Jesus Christ. It just didn’t become popular among the Jews, and thus ended up a Gentile religion. But if any erudite religious scholar in 1 B.C. had been asked “If the Jews invented one of these gods, what would it look like?” they would have described the entire Christian religion to a T. Before it even existed. That can’t be a coincidence.

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paarsurrey said:

One means it is one assumption, please?

Regards

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paarsurrey said:

Did Christ really exist ?

Well Christ is a title name, yes Jesus did exist, I understand, as Quran mentions him as a truthful messenger/prophet of G-d . Jesus was neither a god nor son of a god, he was son of Mary. Right, please?
Why one doubts him, please?

Regards

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Aupmanyav said:

What proves that God is not an imagination and Jesus was genuine (virgin birth and resurrection, of course, Lazarus and walking on water)?
You have to take that on faith, since there is no proof.

Bhagirath revived 60,000 of his uncles by bringing River Ganges from heaven to earth. And from heaven River Ganges fell into the coils of Shiva's matted hair, where it got lost and Shiva had to squeeze his hair to get Rive Ganges out. It is in Hindu scriptures. Would you believe that?
If you do not believe that, why would anyone believe in the fables of Bible?

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Aupmanyav said:

I need to check on that, though I think 'the positive social role of religion' (Christianity) is not genuine and is a feint. Proselytizers adopt all kind of strategies.
Feint: 1. a movement made in order to deceive an adversary; an attack aimed at one place or point merely as a distraction from the real place or point of attack: military feints; the feints of a skilled fencer. 2. a feigned or assumed appearance.

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YoursTrue said:

Very interesting photographs, thank you for sharing. However, I would like to know what writings there are that presumably were written as history about these gods you are talking about that people believe in.
Sorry that I chuckled inwardly when I see that Bhagirath revived 60,000 of his uncles, etc. And now I inadvertantly laughed out loud. No disrespect intended. Only 60,000?

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Jayhawker Soule said:

No.

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537 BC is neither 5BC nor, even, 5th Century BCE. Perhaps were you actually interested in the history you would have known that.

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Jayhawker Soule said:

And so it is useful to distinguish between historicity and divinity.

A useful place to start might be to ask which scenario should be deemed more likely, that the Jerusalem Church was real or that is was a fabrication of Paul and Luke.

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Skywalker said:

The Zoroastrians copied the Christians.

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Skywalker said:

In the book of Kings and the book of Judges Asherash worship is spoken of negatively.

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Skywalker said:

People who believe in Zeus and Horus don't believe that he came to save us and to teach us how to live. What do they have to do with Jesus?

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• "Don't trust yourself until the day you die".[24]

• "Do not judge your fellow until you are in his place."[24]

• "Whosoever destroys one soul, it is as though he had destroyed the entire world. And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the entire world."[25]

• "A name gained is a name lost."[26]

• "Where there are no men, strive to be a man!"[27]

Skywalker said:

Historians in those days were executed if they didn't write the right history.

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YoursTrue said:

Or the previous look-alike religions could have quite a different turn to them. Have a nice day.

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YoursTrue said:

There's a big difference. But that's ok because I feel pretty certain you are convinced you're right. However, Jesus came from heaven, went back to heaven but before his death (God does not, cannot die), he called his Father in heaven the "only true jGod,' (not himself --) and no matter what anyone says, the holy spirit is not the third 'person' of three persons said to be one and equal to each other.

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YoursTrue said:

No. The books preserved by the Jews were written and preserved over centuries. I firmly and absolutely believe the compilation was solidified after Jesus was in heaven, that done by what is known as God's powerful direction or force, called holy spirit. The Jews had the scrolls or books they still accept as from God before Jesus. There are artifacts (including the Dead Sea scrolls) demonstrating that these scrolls and history of the Jewish nation existed for centuries before Christ.

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Aupmanyav said:

No problem, we too do that, even the theist Hindus. For example, Vishwamitra too is supposed to have 60,000 sons.
He was a sage, of the highest kind, Brahma Rishi, he is considered immortal. I take it to mean that he had that many followers.
But then he did something which was not liked by other Rishis - trying to create a new universe. He wanted to send his protege, King Trishanku, with his body to heaven. So his sons were demoted from their high positions to be Shudras (the fourth category of people in the Hindu heirarchy). Well, there is a modern view of the conflict also which is scientific.
Oh, we have 18 major puranas (histories) and countless others.
Puranas - Wikipedia

"So God's kingdom is going to change this world to a far better place than what we see now."
Well, you have your stories, we have ours. Some of them are interesting for various reasons (porn in Job and Abraham). We have the story of "Churning of the Oceans" and its aftermath.

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joelr said:

There is no doubt that the OT existed before Jesus. We have been talking about the changes made around 5BC during the Persian period.
The Dead Sea Scrolls showed many completely different versions of Christianity now called Gnostic sects. They considered the groups that wanted a power structure of bishops and priests to be heretical and vise versa.
In the 2nd century these were many diverse groups with very different canons.
The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels covers what was found in the DSS.
There were some crazy stories about Jesus as a child discovering his superpowers and turning children into animals and killing and resurrecting other kids.

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joelr said:

What are you talking about? I said "around 5BC"? The Persian period was 5BC to 3BC. ...
... Did you need exact dates? Ok, 539 - 332 BC.

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joelr said:

I get that you want that to be true but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the case.
I just posted a link to this but here it is again, at 4:50 a PhD historian will explain what and when the Jewish religion took from the Persians.
Professor F. Stravopopolou already made it pretty clear in the last source I provided. You haven't put forth any sources from scholarship, a PhD biblical historian would be helpful. So your statements remain wishful thinking.

The leading scholar on the Persian religion is Mary Boyce. Her words:

"
Mary Boyce, an authority on Zoroastrianism, writes:

Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.[30]
"
Christian mythology - Wikipedia

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Church historian Dr. Philip Schaff wrote about 100 years ago regarding Zoroastrianism:

Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship, is the ancient Persian religion, and traced to Zoroaster (Zarathustra), a priest in the temple of the Sun, who lived about BC 1300. It was the religion of Cyrus, Darius, Hystaspis, and Xerxes, and of the Wise Men from the East who came to worship the new-born Messiah at Bethlehem. . . . It is a system of dualism with a monad behind and possibly a reconciliation in prospect. Ormazd is the good principle (the sun, the light), and Ahriman is the evil principle (darkness, winter), who corresponds to the Devil of the Scriptures; yet both were created by Zerana-Akerana. They are in constant antagonism, and hosts of good and bad angels under their banners. There is an incessant war going on in heaven as well as on earth. At last Ormazd sends his prophet (a kind of Messiah) to convert mankind; then follows a general resurrection, and separation of the just from sinners . . . the followers of this religion worship with the face turned towards the sun or the fire upon the altar; hence they are called fire-worshipers.2

This religion obviously has aspects similar to Christianity and may have been influenced by events from Genesis forward as they were passed down from generation to generation.

The Zoroastrian View of God
Regardless, Zoroastrianism is considered one of the world’s oldest monotheistic religions — the doctrine or belief that there is only one God. However, while Zoroastrians say they believe there is one supreme God whom they call Ahura Mazda, they also recognize another immortal deity, known as Angra Mainyu, who represents the epitome of evil. So using the traditional definition of monotheism, many religious scholars would say it is more accurate to describe this religion as polytheistic. Polytheism is the belief or worship of more than one God, taken from the Greek word poly, meaning many and theos, meaning God. Polytheism is in contrast to the term monotheism, derived from the Greek word mono, meaning one.

As Christians, it is important to understand that when God created us in His image, He wrote monotheism into our “spiritual DNA.” In helping us to understand this reality, the Apostle Paul explains in the first two chapters of the book of Romans that the existence of only one true God is evident to everyone in one of two ways. First, it is evident by the creation around us: “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20). 3 The Bible reminds us that everything God has created in this world — every leaf, every flower, every drop of water — bears the stamp, “Made by God.”

In addition to this outward revelation found in the visible creation, people also possess an inward knowledge of God known as the conscience. Romans 2 says that people of the world who have never even read a Bible instinctively understand certain moral parameters because God has “the law written in their hearts” (Romans 2:15). So when one reads in Zoroastrian literature of two deities who exist side by side, we immediately know that error has entered into this religion. Since people are born with a monotheistic view of God, it is only when they suppress the truth — seen outwardly in the creation and felt inwardly by the conscience — that they become polytheistic.

According to God’s Word, people who believe in many gods are not displaying an earnest search for God, but are giving evidence of their rebellion against God (Romans 1:21–23). Having traveled to many countries of the world to share the good news, I understand that there are individuals raised from birth in false religious systems like Zoroastrianism. Nevertheless, I have also witnessed that many people caught up in a polytheistic religion know that it is not true. Therefore, it is our responsibility as Christians to reason with them that there is only one God, who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ.4 People who practice Zoroastrianism are lost, and like everyone else in this world, they need to receive the forgiveness found in Jesus Christ.

The Zoroastrian View of Creation
Zoroastrians say that their supreme deity, Ahura Mazda, created the world. Their religions literature states:

In the beginning, there was nothing in the world except Ahura Mazda, the Wise Lord, who lived in the Endless Light. And the Evil Spirit, Ahriman, who lived in the Absolute Darkness. Between them lay only emptiness.

One day, Ahura Mazda decided to make different creations. First He shaped the sky made of metal, shining and bright. Second, He made the pure water. Third, the Wise Lord created the Earth, flat and round with no mountains and valleys. Fourth, He made the plants, moist and sweet with no bark or thorn. Fifth, he created the animals, big and small. Then he created the First Man, Gayomard, bright, tall, and handsome. And lastly, he created Fire and distributed it within the whole creation. The Wise Lord ordered Fire to serve the mankind in preparing food and overcoming cold.5

Anyone who has read the opening chapters of Genesis can quickly see that there are major differences between the creation account in Genesis and the creation story in Zoroastrian literature; however, there are a few vague similarities. Because of these similarities, some liberal scholars have argued that Zoroastrianism predates the biblical record of Genesis and influenced the writings of Moses.

Others argue that there was one common myth as to how the creation of the world took place, and with time it gave birth to many different creation accounts. This view is very similar to those of liberal scholars who point out that there are over 200 different flood accounts found in ancient cultures. From these, it is contended that the different (but sometimes similar) accounts reflect commonly held ancient myths, but not historical fact. Commenting on this fallacious argument, Ken Ham writes:

When I attended university in Australia (many years ago!), I remember one of my professors stating that there were Babylonian stories about a ood similar to the account in the Bible. Therefore he concluded, the Jews borrowed their “story” from the Babylonians! But I say it’s really the other way round! There are flood legends in cultures all over the world because there really was an actual global Flood — Noah’s Flood. As the account of the Flood was handed down (and particularly as people spread out around the world after the Tower of Babel), it was changed by many cultures. Yet many of these legends (including the Babylonian ones) have similar elements to the Bible’s account. Because the Bible is God’s inspired Word, it gives us the true account.6

This same line of reasoning could be used in helping to sort out the different (but sometimes similar) creation accounts. On the one hand, even if one subscribes to the earlier and much highly debated date that places Zoroaster 1,700 years before Christ, this does not change the fact that in the early chapters of Genesis, Moses is writing of historical events that took place approximately 4,000 years before Christ.

On the other hand, if one ascribes to the founding of Zoroastrianism held by most scholars to be the sixth century BC, the Bible still predates the writings of Zoroastrianism. Most historians and scholars, liberal and conservative alike, place the writing of the Torah (Genesis–Deuteronomy) between 1446 and 1406 BC. when Moses and the children of Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years.

This would mean that the Old Testament pre-dates the oral traditions of Zoroaster, later recorded in the Avesta (the offcial religious text of Zoroastrianism), by close to 900 years. Since the Bible predates the religious teachings of the false prophet Zoroaster, one should expect some similarities in Zoroastrianism and other ancient cultures concerning the creation of the world.

As with the Flood of Noah’s day, the different creation accounts began with one authoritative account written by God through Moses and later disseminated through the peoples of the world after the Tower of Babel (Genesis 10–11).

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YoursTrue said:

Odd though that the physical temple is still not there where the high priest was to go in to the most holy on the day of atonement. Did that day of atonement stop, by the way?

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