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Did Christ Have An Ego?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I cannot see how someone who taught us to love each other and to love God is responsible for the sins of people who do not do what He said.
I do not know what he taught and what he did not teach. He did say that he is the only way to reach his (fictitious) God. He cursed people and cities who would not accept him. I am not surprised that his followers too were just as vindictive as his God, killed European pagans, Latin Americans, Africans and others and demolished their cultures. Abrahamic religions are a curse on the world.
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You believe yourself to be perfect?
No, but humans evolved to be imperfect because environmental selection is an imperfect process. An omnipotent God could have done things differently if God desired. Therefore it would be unjust to punish us for being the way nature made us.

So to me repentance means trying to do one's best in accordance with one's natural limitations and shortcomings.

But to a Christian repentance means believing in Jesus as far as I can tell.

So when I said I'll repent i meant in the Christian sense that I'll believe in Jesus when He provides the evidence that He is worth believing in.

Lazarus was not Resurrected. His spirit was placed back into his mortal body. He eventually died.

A Resurrected body is a perfected body where the spirit and physical body reunite never to be separated again. And it is impervious to the conditions of mortality. No pain, disease or decomposition.
So a physical body that disobeys the laws of physics is what you are suggesting.

That sounds like an empty promise to me, so I would not be motivated to change my beliefs until God does what is fair and demonstrates to me that God interferes with the laws of physics and chemistry. After all God is alleged to have been prepared to show doubting Thomas even the flesh wounds. That is creating unequal, unfair and unjust tests to be prepared to do so much for doubting Thomas and nothing for me but a bunch of old tales in a world filled with tales of miracles.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I do not know what he taught and what he did not teach. He did way that he i the only way to reach his (fictitious) God. He cursed people and cities who would not accept him. I am not surprised that his followers too were just as vindictive as his God, killed European pagans, Latin Americans, Africans and others and demolished their cultures. Abrahamic religions are a curse on the world.

In the Biblical story of God setting up Israel as His people to be a witness to the world and through whom to send the Christ, the anointed one into the world, Jesus is that anointed one and the judge of the world and we need to go through Him now, and receive mercy through His death or we will go through Him later at the judgement and hope for His mercy then.
Jesus judged cities for their lack of faith when He did wonderous miracles there as signs and they did not believe He was sent from God.
Being the judge is not being vindictive. We have gone down so many rabbit holes that we do not know where we are and we see good as evil and evil as good these days. God has absolute truth and Jesus has taught that truth in the gospels and people will be judged by it.
It is probably good in some ways that Christianity became a political force since it has meant that many world societies have been educated to an extent in Christian values even though we do not realise it. We think human equality and worth, or that forgiveness and love of enemies, or humility have always been seen as good things probably but in many cultures that has not been the case till Christianity.
It is unfortunate that we Christians have not always followed the teachings of Jesus and so have brought disrepute to His name.
Judaism and and Christianity have been a blessing on the world even though the world does not realise it.
Islam and Baha'i have been false distractions imo even if they claim to be Abrahamic.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No, but humans evolved to be imperfect because environmental selection is an imperfect process.
I'll believe in Jesus when He provides the evidence that He is worth believing in.
That sounds like an empty promise to me, so I would not be motivated to change my beliefs until God does what is fair and demonstrates to me that God interferes with the laws of physics and chemistry. After all God is alleged to have been prepared to show doubting Thomas even the flesh wounds. That is creating unequal, unfair and unjust tests to be prepared to do so much for doubting Thomas and nothing for me but a bunch of old tales in a world filled with tales of miracles.
I would not say that. It has brought us up from one celled organism or even a no-celled organism to the stage today when we are reaching planets and stars.
Agree with your other lines, but they want you to sign papers without reading them only on paper promises. If you challenge, God would never do that. Otherwise it is claimed that he can move mountains. He can put Mont Blanc in India. :D
 

Zaha Torte

Active Member
No, but humans evolved to be imperfect because environmental selection is an imperfect process. An omnipotent God could have done things differently if God desired. Therefore it would be unjust to punish us for being the way nature made us.
But God isn't punishing us. He never has and never will.
So to me repentance means trying to do one's best in accordance with one's natural limitations and shortcomings.
That is mostly what repentance is. The caveat being that we try to do better each day to follow Christ's example.
But to a Christian repentance means believing in Jesus as far as I can tell.
In order to actually overcome our sinful nature we would need to have faith in Christ and therefore take advantage of His Atonement.

Basically - trying to repent with having faith in Christ is much more difficult and wastes your potential and what He did for you.
So when I said I'll repent i meant in the Christian sense that I'll believe in Jesus when He provides the evidence that He is worth believing in.
That wouldn't be faith though and honestly that evidence would most likely damn you forever.

Having a perfect knowledge comes with a huge price tag. Once you know something without any doubt you cannot act contrary to that knowledge.

It is faith that allows our salvation to be justified in spite of the fact that we violated Law and committed sin.

If you were to receive this evidence you are demanding and then at any time afterward commit any sin - you would have zero justification.

You would have no chance of receiving any kind of salvation.
So a physical body that disobeys the laws of physics is what you are suggesting.
Perhaps the laws we have yet to discern with our limited ability and understanding.

God is not "supernatural". He is just operating by natural laws that we are unaware of.
That sounds like an empty promise to me, so I would not be motivated to change my beliefs until God does what is fair and demonstrates to me that God interferes with the laws of physics and chemistry. After all God is alleged to have been prepared to show doubting Thomas even the flesh wounds. That is creating unequal, unfair and unjust tests to be prepared to do so much for doubting Thomas and nothing for me but a bunch of old tales in a world filled with tales of miracles.
Fortunately for you there is nothing you need to do to be saved from physical death. It is a free gift to all.

You shouldn't try to compare yourself to the Apostle Thomas.

We receive witnesses only after trials of our faith. Thomas remained with Christ's disciples even after His Lord was crucified.

Yes - he had doubts - but he stayed in spite of them.

I'm not trying to disparage you - but it sounds like you would not have remained after all that.

Thomas received his witness after passing his trial of faith.

Besides - Jesus said that more blessed are they who have not seen yet still believe.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
But God isn't punishing us. He never has and never will.
The caveat being that we try to do better each day to follow Christ's example.
In order to actually overcome our sinful nature we would need to have faith in Christ and therefore take advantage of His Atonement.
It is faith that allows our salvation to be justified in spite of the fact that we violated Law and committed sin.
If you were to receive this evidence you are demanding and then at any time afterward commit any sin - you would have zero justification.
Fortunately for you there is nothing you need to do to be saved from physical death. It is a free gift to all.
Thomas remained with Christ's disciples even after His Lord was crucified.
Besides - Jesus said that more blessed are they who have not seen yet still believe.
This is a line by line refutation of what you have said:
Right God is not punishing us. Coronavirus - 64,188,950 infections; 1,486,609deaths, loss of jobs, poverty. Today it is this, tomorrow it will be something else. Thanks, God.
Good works are not enough. We have to accept Jesus. Is that fairness?
To consider even a new born of having sinned is plain foolishness.
Who gave us the sinful nature? And if we can keep that in control, then what is the problem?
And if we sin after having faith, we have all justification. Is that what you mean?
I have not seen believers in Jesus to be any way more pious than others. Actually the religious make a larger % of criminals in jail than atheists.
What do you mean by that? Can Jesus save us from physical death?
Why? Thomas remained with Jesus because Jesus showed him the wounds. Let Jesus show his wounds to Danieldemole also or to me? I will always remain with him.
That is exactly what those who established Abrahamic religions want. Believe without any proof.
It was the same with Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, James Smith, Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
That was OK in the early centuries of Christian era, but it does not work in 21st Century. You cannot fool all people all the time.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But God isn't punishing us. He never has and never will.
I'd argue that you are misrepresenting the biblical God here, but assuming what you say to be true then I have nothing to worry about as I will never be punished by God.
ETA Isaiah 13:11 "I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins."

That wouldn't be faith though and honestly that evidence would most likely damn you forever.
Now you are contradicting yourself, no punishment = no damnation.

Having a perfect knowledge comes with a huge price tag. Once you know something without any doubt you cannot act contrary to that knowledge.

It is faith that allows our salvation to be justified in spite of the fact that we violated Law and committed sin.

If you were to receive this evidence you are demanding and then at any time afterward commit any sin - you would have zero justification.

You would have no chance of receiving any kind of salvation.
If God is not prepared to change my nature then God is culpable for the product of my nature, in other words, if I sin due to natural limitations, then God is responsible for my loss of salvation. You can't make a pot black then blame it for being black for example. On the other hand if God does change my nature then I won't sin, simple.

God is not "supernatural". He is just operating by natural laws that we are unaware of.
Natural laws are discoverable, if eternal physical life is naturally achievable, then scientists will likely discover it given enough time.


You shouldn't try to compare yourself to the Apostle Thomas.
Why not? (hint "because it highlights the injustice of my alleged God" is not a good enough reason) If it was good enough for Thomas to doubt the resurection it is good enough for me too.

And how about the garden of Eden, Genesis 3 says it is on earth guarded by cherubim with a flaming sword flashing too and fro, shouldn't be too hard to locate somewhere in Iraq with a flaming sword guarding the east end of it.

"So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a believer in Jesus you deserve to partake of the tree of life allegedly, so the cherubim should give you a free pass when you find them.
 
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Zaha Torte

Active Member
This is a line by line refutation of what you have said:
I doubt that very much but thanks for trying.
Right God is not punishing us. Coronavirus - 64,188,950 infections; 1,486,609deaths, loss of jobs, poverty. Today it is this, tomorrow it will be something else. Thanks, God.
You believe that God allowing us to have both good and bad experiences is a punishment? Why do you believe that?

A punishment is an act of retribution for an offense or an imposition of a penalty.

Mortal life and its various conditions - such as pain, sickness and death - are not punishments - they are just aspects of mortal life.

You can go ahead and believe that God should be blamed for all "bad" things that happen - but then you'd need to blame Him for all the "good" things that happen too.
Good works are not enough. We have to accept Jesus. Is that fairness?
Good works are not enough for what?

If you want to receive a blessing from Jesus - such as forgiveness of sin and eternal life - then you should be prepared to do as He says.

This is a very basic principle that is seen literally everywhere in our world.
To consider even a new born of having sinned is plain foolishness.
It is foolishness which is why the Bible condemns the idea.
Who gave us the sinful nature? And if we can keep that in control, then what is the problem?
We inherited our sinful nature from the Fall of Adam. It is a seed that lies in our mortal flesh.

Everyone will commit sin. That is just life. Even a single sin separates us from God - because He is sinless and perfect and He cannot abide sin.

No matter what we do in this life we will always be indebted to God.

We initially owe Him for creating us and giving us freedom. And all that He asks for us is to keep His commandments. However - if you exert self-control and keep His commandments - He immediately blesses you - and therefore He has paid you.

This not withstanding - He has offered us a means of overcoming our sinful nature and also becoming cleansed from sin. Having self-control is only part of it.
And if we sin after having faith, we have all justification. Is that what you mean?
No. We only are justified before the Law if we do the best we can do with what we have been given. Jesus makes up the rest.

I was simply trying to point out that having a perfect knowledge of things carries a weight that would crush an individual who has never before lived a life of faith.

If you are unwilling to obey in regards to a small matter - like praying to Jesus and asking for forgiveness - then you would never obey after coming to know the full truth of God and His Christ.

That knowledge would destroy you.
I have not seen believers in Jesus to be any way more pious than others.
I don't believe that piety is an essential virtue. Why do you consider it valuable?
Actually the religious make a larger % of criminals in jail than atheists.
Not really the best metric to use considering that the jailed tend to seek out religion after being imprisoned.
What do you mean by that? Can Jesus save us from physical death?
He already has.

The day will come before our Final Judgment when all will rise from the dead as Jesus did.

This is universal in its effects to the entire world.
Why? Thomas remained with Jesus because Jesus showed him the wounds.
No - Thomas chose to remain with the Twelve even after Jesus had been crucified.

He simply doubted the reality of a bodily Resurrection - like most of Jesus's disciples did at the time.

The literal Resurrection was a concept taught by some circles of the Jews but not everyone agreed on it.
Let Jesus show his wounds to Danieldemole also or to me? I will always remain with him.
I do not believe that to be true.

If you can't accept to do simple and easy day-to-day things - then I don't see any reason to assume you'd be able to accept to do anything more than that.
That is exactly what those who established Abrahamic religions want. Believe without any proof.
I don't know about all Abrahamic religions - but Christians believe that you can receive proof - or a witness - only after a trial of your faith.

If you pass the trial then you are eligible to receive the witness you crave.

Wanting to receive the witness before passing the trial is really putting the cart before the horse.

It doesn't help you ready yourself to receive the witness and it gives God literally zero incentive to give it to you in the first place.

Prove yourself worthy to receive it first.
It was the same with Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, James Smith, Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
The Israelites accepted Moses' authority as God's prophet before any plagues visited Egypt.

Jesus lamented when He could perform no miracles at certain cities due to the lack of faith among the people there.

I think you are thinking of "Joseph Smith" - at least I don't know a James Smith.

I don't believe Muhammad was a prophet and I don't know enough about the other guys you mentioned to comment on them.

Either way - those who listened to Moses and Jesus (and I assume Joseph Smith) would have needed to act on faith first and pass a trial of faith before receiving any witness.
That was OK in the early centuries of Christian era, but it does not work in 21st Century. You cannot fool all people all the time.
You can't really deride ancient peoples and claim that they were wrong or that their methods were incorrect if you are unwilling to test their methods and do what they did and see if they work for yourself.

I have and I believe that they work.
 

Zaha Torte

Active Member
I'd argue that you are misrepresenting the biblical God here, but assuming what you say to be true then I have nothing to worry about as I will never be punished by God.
You are punishing yourself.
Now you are contradicting yourself, no punishment = no damnation.
No - we are damning ourselves.

The moment we decide to act against divine law - we hurt ourselves because we stunt our eternal growth and progress.

We are literally "damming" the flow or our divine potential.
If God is not prepared to change my nature then God is culpable for the product of my nature, in other words, if I sin due to natural limitations, then God is responsible for my loss of salvation. You can't make a pot black then blame it for being black for example. On the other hand if God does change my nature then I won't sin, simple.
God doesn't force anything on anyone.

It was Adam and Eve who decided to partake of the Fruit and enter into mortality - which included sin and death.

God gave them that choice. He did not force them to make it.

In order to bring Mankind back to His presence - He sent His Son to overcome the effects of the Fall of Adam and to offer each of us the literal ability to change our nature through faith and repentance.

God is not going to force a change upon us. We need to choose for ourselves - just like Adam and Eve did.
Natural laws are discoverable, if eternal physical life is naturally achievable, then scientists will likely discover it given enough time.
It is impossible for mortals to know everything. There will always be something more for us to learn. And since those with Resurrected bodies have mastery over time and space - I don't see us mortals finding them.
Why not? (hint "because it highlights the injustice of my alleged God" is not a good enough reason) If it was good enough for Thomas to doubt the resurection it is good enough for me too.
Yeah - he doubted a literal Resurrection - just like all the disciples did. He was distraught and lacked understanding.

But - even though he doubted - he remained faithful to the commission that Jesus gave him. He remained with the Twelve even though that association could also lead him to execution.

He was eventually martyred.

Since you are unwilling to do even the bare minimum - I don't think you can compare yourself to him.
And how about the garden of Eden, Genesis 3 says it is on earth guarded by cherubim with a flaming sword flashing too and fro, shouldn't be too hard to locate somewhere in Iraq with a flaming sword guarding the east end of it.

"So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a believer in Jesus you deserve to partake of the tree of life allegedly, so the cherubim should give you a free pass when you find them.
Even though I don't see any reason to assume that the Garden was located in present-day Iraq - I want to stress that I most certainly would not want to partake of that fruit at this time.

If I were partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life at this time I would live forever in my sins. I don't want that.

I would rather pass on. Receive a perfected body. Receive a forgiveness of my sins. Then live forever.

Mortality blows. I don't want to stick around any longer than I have to.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You can go ahead and believe that God should be blamed for all "bad" things that happen - but then you'd need to blame Him for all the "good" things that happen too.
If you want to receive a blessing from Jesus - such as forgiveness of sin and eternal life - then you should be prepared to do as He says.
It is a seed that lies in our mortal flesh. Everyone will commit sin.
No matter what we do in this life we will always be indebted to God.
We initially owe Him for creating us and giving us freedom. And all that He asks for us is to keep His commandments. However - if you exert self-control and keep His commandments - He immediately blesses you - and therefore He has paid you.
This not withstanding - He has offered us a means of overcoming our sinful nature and also becoming cleansed from sin.
No. We only are justified before the Law if we do the best we can do with what we have been given. Jesus makes up the rest.
I was simply trying to point out that having a perfect knowledge of things carries a weight that would crush an individual who has never before lived a life of faith.
If you are unwilling to obey in regards to a small matter - like praying to Jesus and asking for forgiveness - then you would never obey after coming to know the full truth of God and His Christ.
That knowledge would destroy you.
I don't believe that piety is an essential virtue. Why do you consider it valuable?
The day will come before our Final Judgment when all will rise from the dead as Jesus did.
No - Thomas chose to remain with the Twelve even after Jesus had been crucified.
He simply doubted the reality of a bodily Resurrection - like most of Jesus's disciples did at the time.
I do not believe that to be true.
If you can't accept to do simple and easy day-to-day things - then I don't see any reason to assume you'd be able to accept to do anything more than that.
It doesn't help you ready yourself to receive the witness and it gives God literally zero incentive to give it to you in the first place.
- I would like your God first answer for 'bad' things, then we will talk about good things.
- No. I am in no need of a blessing from Jesus. I am asking your God to give me eternal life on basis of my good works. What is the problem that he cannot do that without Jesus' intervention? Does your God descend to this low level that if I do not rub Jesus' feet, he will disregard my good works?
- Even if sin lies in our mortal flesh, we are not sinners till we commit a sin. On what basis you say that everyone will commits sin?
- The existence of God has never been established. For what reason we should be indebted to this unproved entity, God. He did not create me, my father and mother did that. Society has given me the freedom to the extent it thinks it is my due.
- The society tells me as to what I should do and what I should not do. This entity can keep his commandments for his enslaved minions. I do not need any blessing from this imaginary God. I am doing quite well even without that.
- No. Perhaps Christians have sinful natures. I do not agree that we have a sinful nature. I do not need 'the rest' that any Godman or Jesus claims to provide me. We have enough of this type of charlatans in India.
- I am not a descendant of any Adam and Eve who were in any garden of Eden and had a great fall. I am a descendant of a Y-Chromosomal Adam who lived 250,000 years ago and a Mitochondrial Eve who live around 150,000 years ago somewhere in Africa.
- I do not need your kind of 2,000 year old perfect knowledge. If that is a knowledge that can destroy me then I would like to keep away from it. I am satisfied with the knowledge that 21st Century provides me.
- I consider piety valuable because my religion advises that. As you indicate your religion does not value it.
- You have not proved the existence of God, you have not established that this Jesus was the son of God on a mission and now you are talking of a final day. What all shenanigans you have in your store? No, I would not rise after death. When I die, what constitutes me will mix in the environment in a million of living and non-living things. In essence, I would be omni-present. That is what I was born from and that is what I will return to. You can certainly keep your ghost stories.
- Why don't you believe in a literal resurrection? You say that Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas. I suppose the story says that Thomas even touched his wounds. Well, whatever may have happened in his case, we have no reliable proof of that. As for Danieldemole and myself, we have both already told you that we will believe in your story if Jesus shows the wounds to us also. If Jesus does not want to show us the wounds, then it is no deal.
- I am doing what my society wants me to do. There should be a reason that I accept what you believe. Till now, you have not said or shown me anything that makes me believe your snake-oil sales talk.
- If your God and his son, Jesus, are not ready to show me any proof of the great promises that they make, then I will term them as conmen. I too have no interest in such people / entities.
 
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Zaha Torte

Active Member
- I would like your God first answer for 'bad' things, then we will talk about good things.
- No. I am in no need of a blessing from Jesus. I am asking your God to give me eternal life on basis of my good works. What is the problem that he cannot do that without Jesus' intervention? Does your God descend to this low level that if I do not rub Jesus' feet, he will disregard my good works?
- Even if sin lies in our mortal flesh, we are not sinners till we commit a sin. On what basis you say that everyone will commits sin?
- The existence of God has never been established. For what reason we should be indebted to this unproved entity, God. He did not create me, my father and mother did that. Society has given me the freedom to the extent it thinks it is my due.
- The society tells me as to what I should do and what I should not do. This entity can keep his commandments for his enslaved minions. I do not need any blessing from this imaginary God. I am doing quite well even without that.
- No. Perhaps Christians have sinful natures. I do not agree that we have a sinful nature. I do not need 'the rest' that any Godman or Jesus claims to provide me. We have enough of this type of charlatans in India.
- I am not a descendant of any Adam and Eve who were in any garden of Eden and had a great fall. I am a descendant of a Y-Chromosomal Adam who lived 250,000 years ago and a Mitochondrial Eve who live around 150,000 years ago somewhere in Africa.
- I do not need your kind of 2,000 year old perfect knowledge. If that is a knowledge that can destroy me then I would like to keep away from it. I am satisfied with the knowledge that 21st Century provides me.
- I consider piety valuable because my religion advises that. As you indicate your religion does not value it.
- You have not proved the existence of God, you have not established that this Jesus was the son of God on a mission and now you are talking of a final day. What all shenanigans you have in your store? No, I would not rise after death. When I die, what constitutes me will mix in the environment in a million of living and non-living things. In essence, I would be omni-present. That is what I was born from and that is what I will return to. You can certainly keep your ghost stories.
- Why don't you believe in a literal resurrection? You say that Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas. I suppose the story says that Thomas even touched his wounds. Well, whatever may have happened in his case, we have no reliable proof of that. As for Danieldemole and myself, we have both already told you that we will believe in your story if Jesus shows the wounds to us also. If Jesus does not want to show us the wounds, then it is no deal.
- I am doing what my society wants me to do. There should be a reason that I accept what you believe. Till now, you have not said or shown me anything that makes me believe your snake-oil sales talk.
- If your God and his son, Jesus, are not ready to show me any proof of the great promises that they make, then I will term them as conmen. I too have no interest in such people / entities.
Yeah - this is basically just a repeat of your first tirade - which was no refutation of anything.

We will just need to agree to disagree.
 

Zaha Torte

Active Member
I'd argue that you are misrepresenting the biblical God here, but assuming what you say to be true then I have nothing to worry about as I will never be punished by God.
ETA Isaiah 13:11 "I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins."


Now you are contradicting yourself, no punishment = no damnation.


If God is not prepared to change my nature then God is culpable for the product of my nature, in other words, if I sin due to natural limitations, then God is responsible for my loss of salvation. You can't make a pot black then blame it for being black for example. On the other hand if God does change my nature then I won't sin, simple.


Natural laws are discoverable, if eternal physical life is naturally achievable, then scientists will likely discover it given enough time.



Why not? (hint "because it highlights the injustice of my alleged God" is not a good enough reason) If it was good enough for Thomas to doubt the resurection it is good enough for me too.

And how about the garden of Eden, Genesis 3 says it is on earth guarded by cherubim with a flaming sword flashing too and fro, shouldn't be too hard to locate somewhere in Iraq with a flaming sword guarding the east end of it.

"So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a believer in Jesus you deserve to partake of the tree of life allegedly, so the cherubim should give you a free pass when you find them.
I didn't see that Isaiah reference before. I interpret that to mean that God would make us accountable for our evil and sins.
 
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