Mutah, the so called "temporary marriage". Whats the problem?

stvdv said:

I just explained "why Allah did not say it in the Quran to practice Mutah."
No more no less

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The main purpose that there are two genders, male and female is reproduction. When it comes to religions, there must be a purpose for human beings, and the Quran emphasizes on families, and having upright children. So, essentially the purpose of marriage from Quran point of view, is to have children and to raise children who are upright, and righteous. The idea of Mutah does not fit with this at all. It has no place in religion, and is a very superficial way of looking at life, as if people are here to find ways to satisfy their sexual desires.
I can see this idea fit with those who do not believe in spirituality. But, it would be a double standard for those who claim they believe in spirituality and righteousness.

DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan said:

"
A couple things, though... How can something be more or less "man-made?" Are there things that are divine that we can measure to things that aren't? Are there different kinds of divinity? Is this a thing of opinion, or is it something with real world value?

Secondly, about the pooping analogy; Poop causes illness. We didn't always know this, but with better knowledge on how things work, we now know that it harbors disease. We no longer drink from rivers we throw our sewage into. In fact, this has made us very conscious as to where we do put our sewage. Whereas we used to pick a corner of a room and just poop there, or just throw it out onto the streets, we now segregate and isolate it. We know better now than we used to. The authority here is in better understanding; there is no ancient wisdom or common sense here (though it may seem like common sense with how common it has become).
"

Ok, so most people don't share my particular belief that "All is from Allah" so that even all "man-made" things are Allah-made in every detail, not as one original copy, but each individual copy experienced as it is experienced is God-made in every detail.

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Fair enough.

That seems like something with a lot of depth to it. Not sure how one would provide evidence of such a thing, but it's interesting.

People differentiate "God-made" from "Man-made" with their distinction between nature and the products of human efforts, like laws they consider man-made but possibly "based in nature" if the law says "you can eat" and eating is thought to be natural, something people would "have to do" or whatever. Those are different people than me though, the Qur'an actually attributes to God the creation of even the human actions and laws, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily good or good for them, but most people don't think this way anyway, so my beliefs are not representative of any mainstream view or opinion, even if the Qur'an can be used to justify such a view.

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Interesting. What has led you and convinced you that this is the nature of reality?

So, it ends up that it is a matter of opinion, since the distinction that the people make between "man-made" and "not-man made" or "natural" and "not-natural" is usually just argued in various ways based on opinions or their own particular cut-offs for this or that. I make no such cut off, everything is God-made, but not everything is Good, so then that would be my opinion and arguing for what is Good for us or society or not Good for us or society.

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Fair enough! Thanks for breaking that down for me. Can't say I agree, but I appreciate your point of view on things.

Sex can also cause illness, from a Urinary Tract Infection to something greater. It also has psychological effects.

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...Which are things we know about now, but didn't necessarily know about in the past. In the west, those things were attributed to an imbalance of humors. Since learning of medicine, and psychology, medical humors have been cast aside in favor of modern medicine.

Nothing in the Qur'an regarding sex appears to be rooted in any sort of reference to weird spirits or whatever like the Avesta and the Nasu spirit or whatever, nothing in it seems to be suggesting that fornication is a problem for magical reasons, it is a problem for social reasons, what it says is generally logical and can be argued through modern psychology, sociology, studies, science basically in many ways. The Qur'an never refers to "don't have sex outside of marriage with various people because of illnesses you might get" though, but it seems to be concerned with the social and psychological and future ramifications that make problems for oneself and others and the "system", just like stealing, stealing is prohibited because of the social problems it causes and psychological reasonings, it isn't about ghosts or demons or anything like that.

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Alright then. The problem with this, is that times change, as do social climates. What might be socially unacceptable behavior 1400 years ago in the middle east might not have the same social consequences 1400 years later in a country no one even knew would exist, then.

For example, where I live people have sex outside of marriage all the time. I have done so in the past. Socially, that's the norm. Where does the Quran and what it says come in for this situation? Why should it matter to me?

So, the things in the Qur'an remain valid, it hasn't been outdated, its not like the Bible in that sense, it doesn't sound ridiculous to many ears but still relevant and useful, but more importantly, the people perceive it as God's word in particular. Even though God makes up all things, this is one book where God seems to have made it as a direct book of good counsel for humanity and a way to attain good also later potentially, according to it. One can judge it against other books and see that it really is better than them as well, but if one is not convinced, they can put it aside.

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Those are a lot of conclusions to jump to, but I don't really have much to say on the matter other than I really haven't been convinced yet that holy books are really anything more than the works of man. Could I devote hours of my time to check if it's true or not? I suppose so, but why?

My time is valuable, and I've already devoted a lot of it to researching various religions. I also don't feel the need to seek or follow any kind of god anymore. My career is taking off, I'm living a happy and comfortable life, and I'm positively influencing the folks around me- life is good, for the most part.

My past is bitter, and god(s) have helped me cope with my issues in the past, but I don't really feel the need to integrate them into my life now. That's not to say that other people shouldn't. Each person has their own walk, and they know what's best for their own lives. Ultimately, though, I don't really see what makes me need to have the Quran in my life. God's council doesn't really mean much to me.

How people measure this is opinion and taste most likely, but some of us see it as highly beneficial and it has a kind of power over us when we read it that no other book gives us.

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Fair enough.

I don't really see how applicable it is outside of your own subjective world view, though.

I'd like to know also what the handful of things or whatever you know about Islam so far and where you found out each thing and how, and what you think of such, and then also the general assumptions you tend to naturally make, for example one might be "The Qur'an is probably like the Bible" or "Islam is probably like Christianity" or something like that. Most people do that, but I want to know what the most prominent and popular factoids are that people end up hearing about Islam and thinking, so your perspective is an important one by being able to tell us what it is people might hear about Islam and think about it, the handful of things people end up knowing and thinking or otherwise hearing.

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Well, like I said, I know very little about Islam.

I know that it's a religion that was formed in the 7th century. Mohammed wrote the Quran as was dictated by Gabriel the angel. This dictation supposedly contains god's own words, and is written in a style that is very poetic. It contains many different meanings for things that require scribes to clarify. It is said that it's complexity is proof that it is a product of god, and that no man can replicate it... I take issue with this as evidence, considering it actually was written by a man.

As for Islam in the greater world, it has shaped much of it. It's early years had been characterized by growth of territory and expanding the knowledge base of mankind- especially through science. They conquered a great swaths of land, and treated the people they conquered well enough (a lot of this territory was conquered peacefully). This was great if you were a person of the book, such as Jews or Christians. All you had to pay was a tax (which would go away if you converted). Not so good if you weren't, like Zoroastrians, Yazidi, or Sikhi (which were not treated well at all, from what I've read).

Muslim people I've come to know have been nice, and hard working people; they are very set in their ways, though. I would talk to my friend Hakima about her faith sometimes, but when I would bring up other faiths such as Zoroastrianism or Hinduism, she'd get real cold, and bristle up. When talking about how Islam compared to other Abrahamic religions, she would gleefully compare those faiths with her own. One guy I knew at work had 2 wives. One here in the states, and one back in Morocco. Neither of the wives knew about eachother. He was kind of a scum bag... Though, I don't think Islam has much to do with that.

When it comes to the inner workings of the religion, I know that Jesus is seen as a prophet. The Quran speaks of miracles god has made happen, and the elements of creation. There are stories contained, such as Abraham working in an idol shop, and how he destroyed the idols (which weren't his property to destroy, hmmm...). That's about it.

A lot of information I've gleaned has been in reading historical accounts of different empires interacting with the Islamic world (such as the Islamic conquest of Persia), and through influence Islamic empires have had on the ancient world (I'm a history buff). I'm also interested in theology, so I've read about it in passing, though I never really dug deeply into it. I also have talked to friends who were Muslims (as stated above), but they haven't gone too in depth about their faith. Also, I've come to learn a little on these forums, and also the internet at large.

SigurdReginson said:

Fair enough.

That seems like something with a lot of depth to it. Not sure how one would provide evidence of such a thing, but it's interesting.



Interesting. What has led you and convinced you that this is the nature of reality?



Fair enough! Thanks for breaking that down for me. Can't say I agree, but I appreciate your point of view on things.



...Which are things we know about now, but didn't necessarily know about in the past. In the west, those things were attributed to an imbalance of humors. Since learning of medicine, and psychology, medical humors have been cast aside in favor of modern medicine.



Alright then. The problem with this, is that times change, as do social climates. What might be socially unacceptable behavior 1400 years ago in the middle east might not have the same social consequences 1400 years later in a country no one even knew would exist, then.

For example, where I live people have sex outside of marriage all the time. I have done so in the past. Socially, that's the norm. Where does the Quran and what it says come in for this situation? Why should it matter to me?



Those are a lot of conclusions to jump to, but I don't really have much to say on the matter other than I really haven't been convinced yet that holy books are really anything more than the works of man. Could I devote hours of my time to check if it's true or not? I suppose so, but why?

My time is valuable, and I've already devoted a lot of it to researching various religions. I also don't feel the need to seek or follow any kind of god anymore. My career is taking off, I'm living a happy and comfortable life, and I'm positively influencing the folks around me- life is good, for the most part.

My past is bitter, and god(s) have helped me cope with my issues in the past, but I don't really feel the need to integrate them into my life now. That's not to say that other people shouldn't. Each person has their own walk, and they know what's best for their own lives. Ultimately, though, I don't really see what makes me need to have the Quran in my life. God's council doesn't really mean much to me.



Fair enough.

I don't really see how applicable it is outside of your own subjective world view, though.



Well, like I said, I know very little about Islam.

I know that it's a religion that was formed in the 7th century. Mohammed wrote the Quran as was dictated by Gabriel the angel. This dictation supposedly contains god's own words, and is written in a style that is very poetic. It contains many different meanings for things that require scribes to clarify. It is said that it's complexity is proof that it is a product of god, and that no man can replicate it... I take issue with this as evidence, considering it actually was written by a man.

As for Islam in the greater world, it has shaped much of it. It's early years had been characterized by growth of territory and expanding the knowledge base of mankind- especially through science. They conquered a great swaths of land, and treated the people they conquered well enough (a lot of this territory was conquered peacefully). This was great if you were a person of the book, such as Jews or Christians. All you had to pay was a tax (which would go away if you converted). Not so good if you weren't, like Zoroastrians, Yazidi, or Sikhi (which were not treated well at all, from what I've read).

Muslim people I've come to know have been nice, and hard working people; they are very set in their ways, though. I would talk to my friend Hakima about her faith sometimes, but when I would bring up other faiths such as Zoroastrianism or Hinduism, she'd get real cold, and bristle up. When talking about how Islam compared to other Abrahamic religions, she would gleefully compare those faiths with her own. One guy I knew at work had 2 wives. One here in the states, and one back in Morocco. Neither of the wives knew about eachother. He was kind of a scum bag... Though, I don't think Islam has much to do with that.

When it comes to the inner workings of the religion, I know that Jesus is seen as a prophet. The Quran speaks of miracles god has made happen, and the elements of creation. There are stories contained, such as Abraham working in an idol shop, and how he destroyed the idols (which weren't his property to destroy, hmmm...). That's about it.

A lot of information I've gleaned has been in reading historical accounts of different empires interacting with the Islamic world (such as the Islamic conquest of Persia), and through influence Islamic empires have had on the ancient world (I'm a history buff). I'm also interested in theology, so I've read about it in passing, though I never really dug deeply into it. I also have talked to friends who were Muslims (as stated above), but they haven't gone too in depth about their faith. Also, I've come to learn a little on these forums, and also the internet at large.

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Thank you so much for your thorough reply.

If you want to understand my personal beliefs a little more, you can read this for example:
Pastebin.com - Potentially offensive content ahead!

The reason that I'm fond of Islam is that it provides a neat and clear framework which can easily encompass anything else as well, I find it the most sound and useful for that, and I don't think it requires experts to understand what it is saying, its pretty frank and clear, you can read it someday or find a translation you like here www.islamawakened.com

What were the "god(s)" you were involved with in the past, how and why?

I think the girl might have bristled up because she didn't know too much about those other religions or how they are compatible with Islam.