But primarily it is about that, which is why it doesn't add to the words of God. Since the Messiah would be God, obviously His words would be recorded. God doesn't give the gift of tongues today because the Bible is complete. There were books being written after Isaiah because the Bible wasnt complete at the time. The Bible being complete or not affects things. Thats why the New Testament doesn't add to the words of God.
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Christianity vs Baha'i
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
But primarily it is about that, which is why it doesn't add to the words of God. Since the Messiah would be God, obviously His words would be recorded. God doesn't give the gift of tongues today because the Bible is complete. There were books being written after Isaiah because the Bible wasnt complete at the time. The Bible being complete or not affects things. Thats why the New Testament doesn't add to the words of God.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
"And ˹on Judgment Day˺ Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever ask the people to worship you and your mother as gods besides Allah?” He will answer, “Glory be to You! How could I ever say what I had no right to say? If I had said such a thing, you would have certainly known it. You know what is ˹hidden˺ within me, but I do not know what is within You. Indeed, You ˹alone˺ are the Knower of all unseen." 5:116
I see. No, it doesn't say Mary is part of trinity. It just says, Christians are not supposed to worship Mary, as if she is a god.
Even Jesus said, only God is good, when someone called him good teacher.
The Catholic Church teaching that Mary is a co redeemer is false teachings. Jesus said in Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." Jesus knew the future and was warning people about the false teachings of the Catholic Church. The Quran is right when it says that its wrong to worship Mary, but that doesn't mean that its right about who Jesus is. I agree that Christians arent supposed to worship Mary like she's a god, they are supposed to worship God, who came down as a person to die for the sins of the world,
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Yes, so, God can always do whatever He wants. If He wanted to add more scriptures, He can. No body can tell God, why you add more scriptures or write more Holy Books. But then the question is, why Bahai Scriptures are or are not from God.
For that we have to just read the Bahai Scriptures and decide.
Its like the name it and claim it theology. God can do whatever He wants, but its not His will to do magic tricks. In the same way, the New Testament is an offshoot of the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah. The Quran is not. The Quran says Jesus is the Messiah but not in the context of Jesus being a Savior and God. Thats why the Bahai Scriptures arent from God, because they say that Mohammad is a prophet of God, and Mohammad cant be a Christian prophet because he didnt believe in Jesus a Creator and Savior.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Muhammad revealed in the Quran, that He was prophesied in the Testaments.
Anyways, the Quran itself is misinterpreted and misrepresented by Muslims.
Muhammad said, the Muslims will misinterpret the Quran, and will be misguided. At that time, the Mahdi, will come and teach true religion. So, the Bab is the fulfillment of prophecies about the Mahdi.
How is the Quran misinterpreted and misrepresented by Muslims? Jesus mentioned that there would be false Christs and false prophets who would deceive people. Does John 14:16 predict the coming of Muhammad? | CARM.org
"Does John 14:16 predict the coming of Muhammad?
by Ryan Turner
12/24/09
“And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever (John 14:16).”
The Muslim Argument
Muslims argue that the above passage is a prophecy about Muhammad. They argue this from a verse in the Quran, “O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God . . . giving glad tidings of an Apostle to come after me. Whose name shall be Ahmad," (Surah 61:6, Yusuf Ali's translation, emphasis added).
The alleged equivalent for Ahmad (“praised one”) in Arabic is periclytos ("praised one") in Greek. However, periclytos does not even occur in John 14:16. Instead, the Greek word paraclete ("helper") occurs. Therefore, in order to support their argument, Muslims have to argue that the text of John has been corrupted.1
The Christian Response
First, there is absolutely no ancient textual evidence among all of the over 5,600 Greek manuscripts to place the word periclytos (“praised one”) in place of paraclete (“helper”).2 For a Muslim to argue that the correct reading should be periclytos instead of paraclete, shows his lack of understanding of the actual Greek text and the reliability of the copying of the New Testament.
Second, in the same passage, Jesus explicitly identified the “Helper” as the Holy Spirit: “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send, will teach you,” (John 14:26). Therefore, with all due respect, the Muslim argument is already defeated. Third, this “Helper” was given to Jesus’ apostles (the “you” in John 14:16), not to Arabs living over 550 years later! It was given to those who “have been with . . . [him] from the beginning” (John 15:27; cf. Acts 1:22; Luke 1:1-2). However, Muhammad was not one of Jesus’ apostles.
Fourth, this “Helper” was to abide with them “forever” (John 16), but Muhammad has been dead for over thirteen centuries! Fifth, Jesus told the disciples, “You know Him [the Helper]” (v. 17), but the apostles did not know Muhammad. He was not born until over 500 years later! Sixth, Jesus also told the disciples that the Helper would be “in you” (v. 17). How Muhammad could be “in” the disciples stretches all credibility. This reference of being "in" the disciples clearly is a reference to the Holy Spirit’s role of dwelling inside believers as the context of John (John 14:16-26) and the rest of the New Testament (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30) indicates.
Seventh, Jesus said that the Helper would be sent “in My [Jesus’] name” (John 14:26). However, no Muslim believes that Muhammad was sent in Jesus’ name. Eighth, the Helper whom Jesus would send would not “speak on His own authority” (John 16:13). However, Muhammad constantly testifies of himself. For example, in Surah 33:40, Muhammad says of himself, “Muhammad is . . . The Apostle of God, And the Seal of the Prophets.” Ninth, the Helper would “glorify” Jesus (John 16:14). How would Muhammad actually be glorifying Jesus if Muhammad is the last (and the sealer) of the prophets? He really would not be “glorifying” an earlier, inferior prophet like Jesus.
Tenth, and finally, Jesus said that the Helper would come in “not many days” (Acts 1:5), but Muhammad did not come for almost 600 years! Since the Helper is the Holy Spirit, He did come merely 40 days later (Acts 1:5; 2:1ff).
Therefore, given the above evidence, the Holy Spirit clearly is the Helper in John 14:16, not Muhammad."
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
If I read the Hindu Scriptures vs the Bible I get a very different picture of spiritual truth. If I read the Baha'i writing vs. the Bible I get a very different picture of spiritual truth. So why, if as Baha'is say that all these Scriptures came from the same one and true God, are they so different? If I believed the Christian Bible I'd believe Jesus rose from the dead and that there is a Satan... but that in the end Jesus wins out and Satan is destroyed. If I believe the Baha'i writing then I'd believe all those things were fictional and meant to be taken symbolically. So, I wonder, why did God write a book of fiction?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What verses in the Bible does Muhammad say refer to him? Where in the Quran does it talk about the Mahdi?
The Bible is not fiction. Its not borrowed from Zorastrianism. Its very different from Hinduism and pagan beliefs because they dont believe in a one God who is holy and just and loves his creation so much he made a way for everyone to be saved. The Pagan Connection: Did Christianity Borrow from the Mystery Religions?
"One of the popular ideas being promoted today especially on the internet is the idea that the miracle stories of Jesus were borrowed from ancient pagan myths. Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy write in their book The Laughing Jesus, “Each mystery religion taught its own version of the myth of the dying and resurrecting Godman, who was known by different names in different places. In Egypt, where the mysteries began, he was Osiris. In Greece he became Dionysus, in Asia Minor he is known as Attis, in Syria he is Adonis, in Persia he is Mithras, in Alexandria he is Serapis, to name a few.”{1}
Proponents of this idea point out that there are several parallels between these pagan myths and the story of Jesus Christ. Parallels including a virgin birth, a divine Son of God, the god dying for mankind, resurrection from the dead, and others are cited. Skeptics allege that Christianity did not present any unique teaching, but borrowed the majority of its tenets from the mystery religions.
Indeed, some of the alleged parallels appear to be quite striking. One example is the god Mithras. This myth teaches that Mithras was born of a virgin in a cave, that he was a traveling teacher with twelve disciples, promised his disciples eternal life, and sacrificed himself for the world. The god Dionysius miraculously turns water into wine. The Egyptian god Osiris is killed and then resurrects from the dead.
This position was taught in the nineteenth century by the History of Religions School, but by the mid-twentieth century this view was shown to be false and it was abandoned even by those who believed Christianity was purely a natural religion.{2}Ron Nash wrote, “During a period of time running roughly from about 1890 to 1940, scholars often alleged that primitive Christianity had been heavily influenced by Platonism, Stoicism, the pagan religions, or other movements in the Hellenistic world. Largely as a result of a series of scholarly books and articles written in rebuttal, allegations of early Christianity’s dependence on its Hellenistic environment began to appear much less frequently in the publications of Bible scholars and classical scholars. Today most Bible scholars regard the question as a dead issue.”{3}
Despite the fact that many of the arguments were rejected, this theory has once again emerged through the popular writings of skeptics.
What makes Christianity unique among the world religions is that it is a historical faith based on the historical person of Christ who lived a miraculous life. In what follows, we will examine Christianity to see if it teaches a unique Savior or if it is simply a copy of these pagan myths.
{4} However, when the individual myths themselves are studied, the reader soon finds major differences and very little commonality.
A second fallacy is a fallacy of terminology. Christian terms are used to describe pagan beliefs, and then it is concluded that there are parallel origins and meanings. Although the terms used are the same, however, there are big differences between Christian and pagan practices and definitions.{5}
A third fallacy is the chronological fallacy. Supporters of the theory incorrectly assume that Christianity borrowed many of its ideas from the mystery religions, but the evidence reveals it was actually the other way around. There is no archaeological evidence that mystery religions were in Palestine in the first century A.D. Jews and early Christians loathed syncretism with other religions. They were uncompromisingly monotheistic while Greeks were polytheistic. Christians also strongly defended the uniqueness of Christ (Acts 4:12). Although Christians encountered pagan religions, they opposed any adopting of foreign beliefs.{6} Ron Nash stated, “The uncompromising monotheism and the exclusiveness that the early church preached and practiced make the possibility of any pagan inroads . . . unlikely if not impossible.”{7}
Fourth is the intentional fallacy. Christianity has a linear view of history. History is moving in a purposeful direction. There is a purpose for mankind’s existence; history is moving in a direction to fulfill God’s plan for the ages. The mystery religions have a cyclical view of history. History continues in a never ending cycle or repetition often linked with the vegetation cycle.{8}
Christianity gains its source from Judaism, not Greek mythology. Jesus, Paul, and the apostles appeal to the Old Testament, and you find direct teachings and fulfillments in the New Testament. Teachings such as one God, blood atonement for sin, salvation by grace, sinfulness of mankind, bodily resurrection, are sourced in Judaism and foreign to Greek mythology. The idea of resurrection was not taught in any Greek mythological work prior to the late second century A.D.{9}
{10} A brief overview of some of the most popular myths reveals the lack of resemblance with Christianity.
In the matter of death and resurrection, major differences are seen between Christianity and pagan myths. First, none of the resurrections in these myths involve the God of the universe dying a voluntary death for His creation. Only Jesus died for sins; the death of other gods was due to hunting accidents, emasculation, and other calamities. The gods in these stories die by compulsion, not by choice, sometimes in bitterness and despair, never in self-giving love.{11}
Second, Jesus died once for all (Heb. 7:27, 9:25-28), while pagan gods repeat the death and rebirth cycle yearly with the seasons.
Third, Jesus’ death was not a defeat but a triumph. The New Testament’s mood of victory and joy (1 Cor. 15:50-57 and Col. 2:13-15) stands in contrast to the mood of pagan myths which is dark and sorrowful over the fate of their gods.
Finally, Jesus’ death was an actual event in history. Christianity insists on and defends the historical credibility of the Gospel accounts while the pagan cults make no such attempt.{12}
A popular myth that some believe parallels the resurrection of Christ is the story of Osiris. The cult of the gods Osiris and his wife Isis originated in Egypt. According to the legend, Osiris’ wicked brother Set murdered him and sank his coffin to the bottom of the Nile. Isis recovered the coffin and returned it to Egypt. However, Set discovered the body, cut it into fourteen pieces, and threw the pieces into the Nile. Isis collected thirteen of the body parts and bandaged the body, making the first mummy. Osiris was transformed and became the ruler of the underworld, and exists in a state of semi-consciousness.
This legend hardly parallels the resurrection of Christ. Osiris is not resurrected from death to life. Instead he is changed into another form and lives in the underworld in a zombie state. Christ rose physically from the grave, conquering sin and death. The body that was on the cross was raised in glory."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That book is not about the coming of the same man Jesus, it is about the return of Christ, which was Baha'u'llah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But Baha'u'llah tells the Muslims they were wrong, and the teachings of Jesus never got lost.
Addressing the Muslims, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89
“Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 88
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Those verses refer to the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, but we are no longer living in that Dispensation, so they no longer apply.
A new Dispensation began when God sent the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and that abrogated all the Dispensations of the past. You can deny that if you want to but that won't change reality.
“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100
However, it was only the former Dispensations that have been abrogated. The religions themselves have not been abrogated.
“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58
Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
When do you think the dispensation of Jesus Christ came to an end? 1817?
How does the teaching of Baha'u'llah and others demonstrate 'a progressive revelation'? What has been added to the teaching and person of Jesus Christ since 1817?
The only way in which we can know the absolute truth of God is through the perfect prophecy and declaration of His will. And even this is not enough. To know God's perfect will, we must have His Spirit WITHIN us. This is why the Messiah was sent ONCE and for all time; to baptise us with the Spirit of truth. By sending more than one Messiah one is left asking what was wrong with the first Messiah. What is wrong with the Holy Spirit baptism? If truth is absolute, there only needs to be ONE MESSIAH.
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And yet you quote the Bible as if it is true.
The tomb is still empty and the Gospel was based on this truth. Seemed like thousands and thousand believed it in Jerusalem in just a very short period of time. I think I would trust their viewpoint than someones's viewpoint 2 thousands years later.
That is why there is a Supreme Court. God's Supreme Court has the last say so.
What about the Old Testament verses that talk about the Messiah of Israel reappearing in victory? The Old Testament doesn't explicitly state that the Messiah would return twice because of progressive revelation. Jesus is cryptically mentioned in Genesis 3:15.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
I actually had a similar perception as you before. But when I looked in to more details, I saw even Hinduism, in essence teaching same spiritual realities as Bible, or as Bahai Scriptures.
An example is, reincarnation. It is possible to see, if reincarnation is meant to be interpreted symbolically, it completely is the same concept as "Return", which is taught in Bible or Islam.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi:
References in the Bible to “Mt. Paran” and “Paraclete” refer to Muhammad’s Revelation. Deuteronomy 33:2; Genesis
21:21.; Numbers 12:16; Numbers 13:3.; Genesis 17:20 refers to the twelve Imams and in the Revelation of St. John, Chap. 11
What Bible verses talk about the concept of return that exists in Islam?
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Where Jesus said, Elijah has returned but they did not recognize him.... then the apostles understood Jesus is talking about John. John had same spiritual powers as Elijah, thus He was the return of Elijah, according to Jesus.