Zaha Torte
Active Member
Would you mind referencing where Jesus said death came from sin? Are you sure He was not talking about "spiritual death" which is another term for sin?
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Did Christ Have An Ego?
- Thread starter Salty Booger
- Start date
I think you are not taking a detailed biblical summary into account in your marketing. For example in Genesis 5:5 it claims Adam lived 930 years.
That's hardly a natural lifespan for a human of His time subject to the same laws of chemical decomposition as everyone else.
Ah ok, so in your version of the dogmatic Jesus He died on the cross to save us from spiritual death, not physical death. You sound more like a Baha'i than a Christian.
Zaha Torte
Active Member
So - you're unable to provide a reference?
I believe that Jesus came into our world to save us from both physical and spiritual death.
He offers a universal redemption from physical death to all through His willing sacrifice and a conditional salvation from sin (spiritual death) by suffering the penalties of our sins.
If He offers universal redemption from physical death, then according to my understanding of the word universal it means for everyone including non-believers in which case we can wait for Jesus to prove that He has the power to resurrect dead people to believe in Him.
But I still think the story makes no sense.
If Jesus death on the cross is to pay for human sin, and physical death has nothing to do with sin but is merely the product of chemical decomposition then Jesus death on the cross won't affect physical death.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Is this conviction because you do not believe in a God and so have closed the door to the possibility of the story of Jesus being true and so the prophecies having been fulfilled?
Brian2
Veteran Member
According to the genealogies it is a natural life span at that time but which went down over time till after the flood God said I think 120 years should be more normal and later God dropped it further.
It is not known exactly how long ago Adam lived or exactly how long ago the flood was, but nobody now was alive then to know how long people lived.
Estimates these days could very well be wrong.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus died on the cross to save us from all death, spiritual and physical.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Prophecies are ****, and yes, I am a strong atheist, but what I believe about Jesus is because of the history of the region at that time. There were scores of such upstarts showing the 'correct way' and many rebellions against established Jewish authority and Romans. Masada is a prime example. Jesus was just another Rabbel-rouser who failed.
Wikipedia has various lists of people who have claimed to be Moses, Jesus, Imam, Mahdis, Prophets or Saints in Abrahamic religions since no proof is required. The situation is especially bad in Shia Islam. Wiki page on 'Claimants to Mahdis' says:
"According to seminary expert, Mehdi Ghafari, more than 3,000 Mahdi claimants were in prison in Iran in 2012."
This is a sort of Covid in Abrahamic religions. Hinduism too has various 'Bhagwans', Yogis, Swamis. Many of them are criminals and charlatans or they have been propped up by criminals and charlatans.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes charlatans and egoists are around in large numbers it seems, but your opinion of Jesus does not seem to be based on the gospels at all, which do not show a rabble rouser, but a teacher of love for enemies who judged only the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders and the lack of faith of the Jews in the face of His signs and wonders.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, I don't say that Jesus was a charlatan or criminal. But he sure was trying to foment trouble for the Jewish religious authorities and consequently for Romans too. Perhaps he had some psychological problem due to the circumstances of his birth. He was a small fry - just 12 disciples. So when he was crucified with two thieves, not many cared. Why should my opinion be based on Gospels? Gospels, scriptures always tell a biased story.
Zaha Torte
Active Member
Sure - but you'd miss out on the repentance process which leads to forgiveness of sin. Not to mention the possibility of eventual perfection.
It's better to find this stuff out as soon as possible.
Jesus' suffering was what paid for human sin. And that suffering began in the Garden of Gethsemane when He prayed and bled blood. He suffered for our sins from that moment on until His death on the cross.
Jesus had to die in order to overcome physical death through a glorious bodily Resurrection on that Sunday morning. Because He rose from the dead He promises that all of us will also one day rise from the dead.
He overcame both sin and death and He offers us the possibility to overcome them too. Our victory over physical death is already assured, but our victory over spiritual death (sin) is conditional upon our repentance.
So you are saying Genesis 5:5 contains a wrong estimate?
Not really, I could just repent when there is evidence I have something to repent for.
What perfection? Chemical decomposition would continue to work the same as it always has since the first unstable chemicals formed in the universe. Even if Jesus where to bring back all the chemicals together to form a body for us it would still decompose and we would end up as dead as Lazuras from the story currently is... or do you think Lazuras is still around somewhere too?
Zaha Torte
Active Member
You believe yourself to be perfect?
Lazarus was not Resurrected. His spirit was placed back into his mortal body. He eventually died.
A Resurrected body is a perfected body where the spirit and physical body reunite never to be separated again. And it is impervious to the conditions of mortality. No pain, disease or decomposition.
Perfection means becoming like God- also known as exaltation, theosis, or eternal life - and this happens when both our physical bodies and spirituals are perfected in Christ.
Brian2
Veteran Member
He tried to avoid the people making Him into the political King of the Jews that the Jews saw the Messiah to be, with it's implications of war with the Romans and politiical independence etc. The Jewish authorities also saw this potential problem and this seems to have been part of the reason they wanted to get rid of Jesus.
Jesus knew what He had to do and where it would lead, to suffering and death. We can see this in the Gospels. We can also see in the Old Testament prophecies that this is where this suffering servant Messiah would go, that He would be rejected by most Jews and suffer and be killed for the sins of His people.
Brian2
Veteran Member
No, I'm saying we don't know that Adam did not live over 900 years. All we can do is look at people these days.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Really? Do you think you have not done anything wrong?
Maybe you mean evidence that there is someone to repent to, or evidence that there is good reason to repent.
Lazarus was not resurrected to eternal life with an immortal and incorruptible body.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Prophecies again. Braian2, I am living in 21st Century, I do not believe in prophecies. Sins of one person or people cannot be washed by one person.
Actually, that person is responsible for many more sins all over the world.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The sins of the world can be washed by the sacrifice of one if that one is the Christ, the Son of God. That is prophesied
and that is what Jesus did. I cannot see how someone who taught us to love each other and to love God is responsible for the sins of people who do not do what He said.