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Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is the link to what I found in the Monk.

I have looked quite a few times to see if there was a recorded Gate to the revelation of Muhammad. This is the first time I found something.

Bahira - Wikipedia.

Thank you very much Tony. I really appreciate when people give references. And you did.

I just read it. It is quoting some of the most disregarded sources, called Munkar Thamaaman in Islam generally. Nevertheless, even according to these sources this "Bahira". Also there are studies that show Al Hindi was the person who began this Bahira tradition that was adopted by latter narrators and of course attributed in retrospect. There is no real authenticity to this. Bahira actually is a female camel. And some one may have just made it as a legend as someone who carries things, a helper. Some people had ideas that camels had magical powers to identify Shariah. Path to water.

Nevertheless this Miaphysite, even according to all these sources was no divine person. He was in awe (apparently) of Muhammeds looks, diligence, intelligence, spirituality, perseverance etc. What he says is that he has never seen a better suited candidate than Muhammed. Nothing compared to the so called "Elijah" or "Yahya". I think you can read about it in simple words in Journal of Arabic Literature made way back in 1990. Bahira was apparently looking for the cloud that he was looking for on Muhammeds head. A cloud above Muhammeds head? ;) And do you really believe that the Khatham was a physical stamp on skin? Anyway, these are not acceptable brother. That said, with all due respect.

Before the Sunrises there is always a dawn. A glow on the horizon that prepares our eyes gradually for the bright Sun to come.

Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord"

Matthew 17:10 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"

Matthew 17:11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.

Jesus confirmed that John the Baptist was Elijah for the Message Jesus as Christ was to give.

I was lucky to visit the cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel. It is now within walking distance of the Bahai world Centre. The future Baha'i House of Worship on Mount Carmel is a stones throw away, Imagine that. ;)

The Spirit of Elijah returns in each age to prepare the way for the Messengers.

Thanks again.

These verses speak of one specific thing to come to pass. Not every prophet.

Anyway, though I visited the KD hotel for a conference in 2014, I did not get much of a chance to travel. Maybe one day.

Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
As I see the Quran does quote about Jesus and the Bible, I will give that a big miss.

No it doesnt.
I also see why many have become atheist, or agnostic, or just sick of religion, they are tied of such division in Faiths, Faiths that talk about finding unity under God.

Agreed.

As I add to all that by participating, I am starting to see why I should not engage in such debates.

Regards Tony

Your prerogative Tony.

Peace.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Well someone should have seen Joseph Smith making up the Book of Mormon, but the witnesses say he interpreted some Golden Plates and dictated it. Someone should have seen the Christians steal the body of Jesus and hide it somewhere, but the witnesses say they went to the tomb and it was empty then Jesus appeared to them alive.

The problem for me is it doesn't make sense. Six times something is used to equal 1260 years. And each time, no matter what the event, with no regard to when it really started, and no regard to when it really ended, it is made to start in 621AD and end in 1844. The Umayyads did not gain power in 621AD and did not last until 1844. The beast that is associated with the mark or number of the beast, the 666, did not gain power in 661AD. No problem for you? Why would there be. But how do you explain it to non-Baha'is?

Oh, and there is one other number in Revelation that Baha'is don't mention, Christ is supposed to reign for a thousand years and then Satan gets released for a short time, then destroyed. If you're going to be consistent, the 1000 years gets converted into days, then reconverted into years. According to my calculations that should be 360,000 years from what ever year you want it to be.

Rev 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.​

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

A few problems for Baha'is here, not just the 1000 years. We have people that were followers of Jesus and were killed. They did not worship the beast and had not received his mark. But Baha'is make the "mark" or number of the beast a date, 661AD? This doesn't support that interpretation at all. The mark is still said to have been a mark on the hand or forehead. Then we have another great battle scene. Since I don't think Baha'is predict a great battle in 1000 years or 360,000 years from now, what is this talking about?
They are not a problem for Bahais. Bahais believe, the scriptures contain secrets of God. They believe God, in His own ways, hidden certain truth within the scriptures, in such a way that ordinary people won't see them.

Only He, Himself in its due time, reveal such mysteries.
Thus, 666, or 1844, or 1260, or 1280, or 1335, and etc, were those mysteries of God, that He had expressed them, in a way not to be known or understood by ordinary people. In this Age, it was the time to reveal their true interpretations and mysteries. Bahais have no problem with accepting this. As for, others who don't accept them, or have problem with this, well, that is their own choice.
I think that's fair.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
They are not a problem for Bahais. Bahais believe, the scriptures contain secrets of God. They believe God, in His own ways, hidden certain truth within the scriptures, in such a way that ordinary people won't see them.

Only He, Himself in its due time, reveal such mysteries.
Thus, 666, or 1844, or 1260, or 1280, or 1335, and etc, were those mysteries of God, that He had expressed them, in a way not to be known or understood by ordinary people. In this Age, it was the time to reveal their true interpretations and mysteries. Bahais have no problem with accepting this. As for, others who don't accept them, or have problem with this, well, that is their own choice.
I think that's fair.

I don't believe in the Bible code. Keep it simple. It's not important.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I see the awakening was a result of the return of Christ as promised in 1844. William Miller got the year correct, the Day and hour stillnot known, but what were they looking for? They were looking for a material Jesus to step off a material cloud.

That people could not see Christ upon the clouds, is because doctrines had become the clouds that blinded the spiritual eyes.

Regards Tony
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

When did the rebellion that causes desolation start? From that year we add 2300 evenings and mornings. Convert them into whatever you want. But, the important thing is... when do we start counting?

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”​

I do believe Christians use this to get to the time of Jesus. But it also mentions the time when the abomination is set up. It says in the middle of the seven? I don't know. What do Baha'is say all this means? One thing I do believe is that the 2300 days does not start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. It starts with the year the abomination that causes desolation is set up. The prophesy about all those "sevens" starts with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I don't believe in the Bible code. Keep it simple. It's not important.

I dont know what you mean by code.


do you think, the year, Jesus was to come, was mentioned in the OT?


Thats the issue I see with mainstream belief.

If you dont believe in Bible containing mysteries, how did you believe Jesus is mentioned in Old Testament?
If you say, Jesus is clearly mentioned in Old Testament, then why the Jews don't see that?

No, all the Prophecies about Jesus in OT, are in a hidden language, using symbols, or as you name it, codes.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
@CG Didymus

I dont think you understood the point I was trying to make.

I meant to say, where did according to history, anyone ever witnessed Bahaullah or Abdulbaha study the Bible in details?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But how many "Anointed" ones were there in the Bible that weren't messenger/manifestations of God? The Messiah is something greater isn't he? So still, how many "The Messiah's" are predicted in Judaism? Did any person fulfill all of what the Jews believe to be Messianic prophecies? No, the best Baha'is can say, like the Christians, is that they misinterpreted those prophecies.

Those Annointed are Messengers, they vary in the intensity of light as per the Will of God.

The others are what we know as Disciples, they in turn reflect the light of the Messengers.

Regards Tony
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I dont know what you mean by code.


do you think, the year, Jesus was to come, was mentioned in the OT?


Thats the issue I see with mainstream belief.

If you dont believe in Bible containing mysteries, how did you believe Jesus is mentioned in Old Testament?
If you say, Jesus is clearly mentioned in Old Testament, then why the Jews don't see that?

No, all the Prophecies about Jesus in OT, are in a hidden language, using symbols, or as you name it, codes.
God is not about mystical things. The prophecies are evident but people try to come up with other explanations because they don't want to believe that the Messiah is a Creator and a Savior. I'm not inconsistent for believing that Jesus is God but not believing in the Bible code.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Very obvious. So, by those signs we can be more sure, the Bahai Revelation is the fulfillment of those prophecies. By these prophecies Daniel gave signs, so, we can recognize truth. Now that we see every date is matched with some major event in the Bahai revelation we know, this is the true fulfillment.
Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.​
When is the abomination set up? From that day add the 1290 and 1335. Are Baha'is, again, taking these figures and starting at 621AD? Why? That's not when the abomination happens, that's the Hegira.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
God is not about mystical things. The prophecies are evident but people try to come up with other explanations because they don't want to believe that the Messiah is a Creator and a Savior. I'm not inconsistent for believing that Jesus is God but not believing in the Bible code.

There is no where in old testament, that EXPLICITLY, says, the Messiah to come will be the son of God, His name is Jesus, His mother name us Mary, He does not have a father, but God is His father, who appears in the city of nazzaret, 1600 years after Moses. There is no where in old testament that says, before Jesus, another Prophet comes whose name is John.

If God wanted to make it really clear, He could have said all these things very clearly, so, no man could deny them.

But He did not, and such is again with regards to prophecies of the Bab and Bahaullah.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is a sad reflection for me. I always thought Islam would have embraced Jesus the Christ.

The issue may have been that Islam was only a couple of hundred years after Christianity started to embrace Doctrine over what was written. The whole do not trust the Bible may be a part of all the effort to show Christianity that their doctrines where erroneous.

It also indicates to me why Islam was not so willing to find Muhammad in the Bible, as if it did acknowledge Muhammed is clearly foretold, then the Bible is to be embraced for what it is, a sure guide to the Word of God.

Regards Tony
Muhammad is clearly foretold? Not even Baha'u'llah is clearly foretold. It takes some imagination. Like "Woes" are manifestations? No. Woes are mentioned other times and they are nothing but bad things coming.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is no where in old testament, that EXPLICITLY, says, the Messiah to come will be the son of God, His name is Jesus, His mother name us Mary, He does not have a father, but God is His father, who appears in the city of nazzaret, 1600 years after Moses. There is no where in old testament that says, before Jesus, another Prophet comes whose name is John.

If God wanted to make it really clear, He could have said all these things very clearly, so, no man could deny them.

But He did not, and such is again with regards to prophecies of the Bab and Bahaullah.

People don't not believe in Jesus because of the Old Testament not wording things in a different way, people don't like the idea that the Messiah is a Savior because that implies that we have a sin problem. But God doesn't mention that we have a sin problem to condemn us, He says it because He made a way for us.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Muhammad is clearly foretold? Not even Baha'u'llah is clearly foretold. It takes some imagination. Like "Woes" are manifestations? No. Woes are mentioned other times and they are nothing but bad things coming.

Clearly now, the key have been given.

Many say the same thing to me, so I see I not the only one that thinks this.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
@CG Didymus

I dont think you understood the point I was trying to make.

I meant to say, where did according to history, anyone ever witnessed Bahaullah or Abdulbaha study the Bible in details?
So what's your point? That they didn't study the Bible? That they got all their information direct from God? So if I have a problem with what they said I should take it up with God? But, I get the feeling they probably did read the Bible once in a while. But either way, you believe them to be speaking God's word and I doubt that they are. Some things just don't make sense. And that's why we're here... to make sense of it all.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
People don't not believe in Jesus because of the Old Testament not wording things in a different way, people don't like the idea that the Messiah is a Savior because that implies that we have a sin problem. But God doesn't mention that we have a sin problem to condemn us, He says it because He made a way for us.
So, I am saying, Jesus was not prophesied in OT, in a clear and explicit language.
You seem to believe Jesus is clearly and explicitly prophesied in OT.

We can agree to disagree on that.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Those Annointed are Messengers, they vary in the intensity of light as per the Will of God.

The others are what we know as Disciples, they in turn reflect the light of the Messengers.

Regards Tony
Or, the "Lord's anointed" is something from Judaism. There king's were anointed. I don't know... I wonder if some or all of their prophets were. I doubt any "anointing" happened prior to the priesthood came to be. So I wonder if Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses were ever "anointed"? Anyway, I did a quick search. Here's what I found...
Anointing is a form of consecrating a sacred person or item, and initiating it in its special function. In the Torah it was done to the Tabernacle (Exodus 30:26-30), to High Priests (as well as all the Priests when the Tabernacle was first dedicated), and occasionally to kings.

The earliest instance of anointing in the Torah is the stone which Jacob anointed to dedicate as an altar (Genesis 28:18).
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So, I am saying, Jesus was not prophesied in OT, in a clear and explicit language.
You seem to believe Jesus is clearly and explicitly prophesied in OT.

We can agree to disagree on that.

The iniquity of us all was laid upon the Messiah and he was born of a maiden is a clear and explicit prophecy. The Old Testament talks about the Messiah being a Redeemer in the book of Job.
 
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