Did the astronomy come from the Persians or the Arabs?
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Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
I've read about the Quran including from some Muslim websites. I agree with Muslims who say that Allah isn't the moon god but that doesn't mean I believe Allah is the God of the Bible.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You have not read any of the scriptures, and neither do you have any clue about what you just said. Zilch.
Unworthy of discussion. Its okay not to have read, but disingenuous pretence and cooking up things is the sign of someone unworthy.
Ciao.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Whatever you say, but it seems all people have to do is start another sect or make up their own religion to put a stop to the old ways and old interpretations and say that the older sect or religion was wrong. Protestants did it to Catholics. Mormons did it to the other Christian sects. And, I'd imagine Shia's did it to Sunni's. But, really, did Islam lose anything just because The Bab said the Islamic laws were abrogated? Did The Bab ever put his supposed laws from God into effect? Even now, unless you are a Baha'i, does anyone care or follow the supposed new laws from God that Baha'u'llah has brought? No, because they don't believe that Baha'u'llah is truly the new and legitimate messenger from God.
And all the religions spoke of "two" manifestations? Some religions don't even speak of their prophets even being manifestations, like Judaism and maybe Buddhism. And some, up it even more and say their prophets are incarnations of God. Since this is just about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. What do you have as prophecies of two manifestations coming at the end times. And I'm sure there are some that make it sound like when "He" comes. So you should include them and explain why you make those into two "He's".
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, you know. I don't know. I don't know why God would give Daniel a prophecy that tells of the year the UHJ gets established.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
You have not read Quran carefully. It has many allusions and mystery in it, which is hidden unless you really use your mind.
You haven't even bothered reading Iqan carefully, so quick to judge.
You also assume, that, all the events of past revelations are in the Quran, which is wrong idea.
Just think about it. For example Jesus lived for about 33 years. If the Quran wanted to describe all the things He said, or all the events everyday happened in Jesus life, even 100 times volumes of Quran would not be enough. So your logic that, just because it is not in the Quran, it cannot be true, not only is illogical but sounds quite fanatical, as if, Quran contains all the truth for all the times past and future. Though I belive it does, but they are in the form of brief allusions, and symbols, so, ordinary people cannot see it.
We Bahais believe that we know many of them, because it was revealed in the Bahai Scriptures.
Also,
Your idea that, just because such and such traditions are in Shia, therfore they are false, is only a fanatical view. A person who is open mind, would accept anything from anywhere if it is logical and true. Hope you can see this.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Very obvious. So, by those signs we can be more sure, the Bahai Revelation is the fulfillment of those prophecies. By these prophecies Daniel gave signs, so, we can recognize truth. Now that we see every date is matched with some major event in the Bahai revelation we know, this is the true fulfillment.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Not a valid answer. Thanks though. Maybe because you have not read the Quran properly at all, you think others are just like you. So that answer is invalid.
I think you are reading my mind. Or rather you think you can read my mind. So maybe you think you are God himself. Sorry, not valid.
When asked for references, since you cannot provide a single one, you have of course resorted to your rhetorical responses.
So I think its not worthy to proceed any further. Sorry sis, I am not going to engage you in the future.
I wish you all the best. Have a great day. Peace.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
I told you where you can find references in Iqan. But I cannot do all the work for you. If you are serious about these discussions, you should also search and find it.
Perhaps you could have found the related paragraphs from Iqan, and post it here for farther discussion.
Good luck with your hunting.
That is a sad reflection for me. I always thought Islam would have embraced Jesus the Christ.
The issue may have been that Islam was only a couple of hundred years after Christianity started to embrace Doctrine over what was written. The whole do not trust the Bible may be a part of all the effort to show Christianity that their doctrines where erroneous.
It also indicates to me why Islam was not so willing to find Muhammad in the Bible, as if it did acknowledge Muhammed is clearly foretold, then the Bible is to be embraced for what it is, a sure guide to the Word of God.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
It does. But not the Bible.
Not at all. You have got it completely wrong. You believe that the whole "no embrace of the Bible" as a purely faith matter. I would like to request you to not make assumptions about others and just "ask".
See, Islam is a theology. You can't make statements like "Islam is not willing find something". That shows you are completely equating Islam with Muslims, and your idea of Muslims may very well be absolutely anecdotal. So I would like to request you to broaden your scope and research on things.
Quran never quotes the Bible. If you want to discuss that, you can open a new thread and I will engage with it.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
It is a good question. But I dont know why it is relevant to our discussion.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Very good job @firedragon. You are really good at illogical fallacy, so, you dont loose. Keep it up, this is the way to investigate and find the truth.
And yes I am being sarcastic my friend.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Well someone should have seen Joseph Smith making up the Book of Mormon, but the witnesses say he interpreted some Golden Plates and dictated it. Someone should have seen the Christians steal the body of Jesus and hide it somewhere, but the witnesses say they went to the tomb and it was empty then Jesus appeared to them alive.
The problem for me is it doesn't make sense. Six times something is used to equal 1260 years. And each time, no matter what the event, with no regard to when it really started, and no regard to when it really ended, it is made to start in 621AD and end in 1844. The Umayyads did not gain power in 621AD and did not last until 1844. The beast that is associated with the mark or number of the beast, the 666, did not gain power in 661AD. No problem for you? Why would there be. But how do you explain it to non-Baha'is?
Oh, and there is one other number in Revelation that Baha'is don't mention, Christ is supposed to reign for a thousand years and then Satan gets released for a short time, then destroyed. If you're going to be consistent, the 1000 years gets converted into days, then reconverted into years. According to my calculations that should be 360,000 years from what ever year you want it to be.
Rev 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
A few problems for Baha'is here, not just the 1000 years. We have people that were followers of Jesus and were killed. They did not worship the beast and had not received his mark. But Baha'is make the "mark" or number of the beast a date, 661AD? This doesn't support that interpretation at all. The mark is still said to have been a mark on the hand or forehead. Then we have another great battle scene. Since I don't think Baha'is predict a great battle in 1000 years or 360,000 years from now, what is this talking about?
This is the link to what I found in the Monk.
I have looked quite a few times to see if there was a recorded Gate to the revelation of Muhammad. This is the first time I found something.
Bahira - Wikipedia.
Before the Sunrises there is always a dawn. A glow on the horizon that prepares our eyes gradually for the bright Sun to come.
Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord"
Matthew 17:10 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
Matthew 17:11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.
Jesus confirmed that John the Baptist was Elijah for the Message Jesus as Christ was to give.
I was lucky to visit the cave of Elijah on Mount Carmel. It is now within walking distance of the Bahai world Centre. The future Baha'i House of Worship on Mount Carmel is a stones throw away, Imagine that.
The Spirit of Elijah returns in each age to prepare the way for the Messengers.
Regards Tony
I would bet there are many indigenous tribes that will tell you the falsity of that claim. Even in Australia that claim is proven false.
I can say, many thought they were doing the right things and some were.
Regards Tony
Jesus didn't command those actions, Mohammed did.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But how many "Anointed" ones were there in the Bible that weren't messenger/manifestations of God? The Messiah is something greater isn't he? So still, how many "The Messiah's" are predicted in Judaism? Did any person fulfill all of what the Jews believe to be Messianic prophecies? No, the best Baha'is can say, like the Christians, is that they misinterpreted those prophecies.
I see theology has its place, but Faith is much more than theology to me.
Regards Tony
As I see the Quran does quote about Jesus and the Bible, I will give that a big miss.
I also see why many have become atheist, or agnostic, or just sick of religion, they are tied of such division in Faiths, Faiths that talk about finding unity under God.
As I add to all that by participating, I am starting to see why I should not engage in such debates.
Regards Tony