• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Religious Manipulation?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Statism [which is the modality employed by that bunch] is indeed a "religion" as it is the same qualitatively in form/function and in effect.
all religion is crowd control, through stories, and the interested authors that pen history are the shamanic group which shepherds society along whatever "path' is the aim of their ideological bent.

Statism employees enforcement. So yes it is manipulative in the sense of punishment. IOW there exists actual consequences for not following policy. So I'm not acting because I think it is right. I'm acting to avoid punishment. Since we are a secular democracy, "other" religions don't have this enforcement. They need to manipulate the thinking of the follower into accepting the religious policy is right. More of a mental manipulation. They have to brainwash/program your subconscious thinking into acceptance. I feel it is a little more sinister or at least a more covert process.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
Statism employees enforcement. So yes it is manipulative in the sense of punishment. IOW there exists actual consequences for not following policy. So I'm not acting because I think it is right. I'm acting to avoid punishment. Since we are a secular democracy, "other" religions don't have this enforcement. They need to manipulate the thinking of the follower into accepting the religious policy is right. More of a mental manipulation. They have to brainwash/program your subconscious thinking into acceptance. I feel it is a little more sinister or at least a more covert process.
statism is of course more practical and overt, whereas the religious mystery squads of the earth play a much more subtle game of manipulation, playing on the basic primal hopes and fears of the human to win their hearts and minds...give them enough rope and suggestions and.......:eek:o_O
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
learning you say.
In general, people learn a lot. I'm not saying there are people who just don't learn anything.


Even if all people learn something... would the people in this story (see below) ever stop perpetrating their victims?
I'm not saying the people in the post don't learn anything. Of course they do. Everyday in their daily lives... they learn. Many things. But where's the evidence that by consequence of what they learn they would suddenly stop perpetrating others?
Young girl abducted, forced into Muslim marriage - Open Doors USA

Thomas

Many choose hard lessons for themselves. They learn when it returns. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices.
are you saying that these people who abduct young girls and force them into marriage are not intelligent?
Or do you say they don't understand the girl's side yet? Why not? They might understand very well and abduct them because they want to have them regardless of how much they will understand or even because they understand very well. They abduct on purpose, you know?
So who says that they will suddenly stop abducting young girls when allowed to enter heaven? Only universalists do and they have nothing to back their presumption up.
If they are allowed to enter heaven, they will turn heaven into a hell of fear for their former earthly victims... as they could perpetrate them in the same exact manner as they did before.

Heaven should be a safe place for Christian women and girls, I think.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
are you saying that these people who abduct young girls and force them into marriage are not intelligent?
Or do you say they don't understand the girl's side yet? Why not? They might understand very well and abduct them because they want to have them regardless of how much they will understand or even because they understand very well. They abduct on purpose, you know?
So who says that they will suddenly stop abducting young girls when allowed to enter heaven? Only universalists do and they have nothing to back their presumption up.
If they are allowed to enter heaven, they will turn heaven into a hell of fear for their former earthly victims... as they could perpetrate them in the same exact manner as they did before.

Heaven should be a safe place for Christian women and girls, I think.

Your view is too narrow.

Would you really classify a person who abducts young girls as intelligent? Is abducting young girls an intelligent act?? Of course not!!

No one will be able to create a Heavenly state for themselves until they learn Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Is abducting a young girl really what is best for her? Perhaps only if there is a lesson for her to learn through the process. Still, this person who abducts would never do it if they Understood all sides.

So what happens next? When one dies, one goes to God. Everyone will experience God's Unconditional Love that heals all hurt. It is a Love that feels so good, so complete that one would do anything for it. This happens so that one will know that it has never ever been about punishment.

Experiencing God's Unconditional Love, one wants to be just like God. One sees where one is and where one wants to be. This is the point of judgment. One judges oneself.

Who knows how long one basks in God's Unconditional Love, however there comes a point where kiddies must go back to school. One is born into a new physical body.

All our actions will return in time. It might not be in the same lifetime but they will return. This is not punishment. This is education at it's best.

WE are living our lessons. When one understands all sides, our intelligence will choose the best choices. Since one chooses the best choices, there is no need to define good or evil. This eliminates any need to value so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear like: Judging, Hating, Condemning, We are good; they are bad, coercing,intimidating and so many more.

Since our goodness returns as well, this teaches everyone to Love Unconditionally. After all, given enough time and lessons, one will realize that is what one really wants to return.

Unconditional Love does not just give the other everything they want. Unconditional Love does what is Best for the other. This is not always an easy thing to do. On the other hand, it is the only way to create a Heavenly state.

Back to the abductor of young girls, one should protect people, however is the best course anger, hate, and payback or is the best course solving the problem through education? I pity the abductor since they choose some very hard lessons for themselves.


Place Truth in their lives so it will be there when they are ready to see. God places Truth around us all. It waits to be Discovered and yet has always been there waiting.

The young girls are also living some hard lessons. Never teach them to hate. Give them a Big dose of Unconditional Love and point them in the right direction for that is what they really need.

Controlling others is another petty thing mankind holds so dear. Remember, place Truth all around, however each must choose for themselves. Free choice is an important part of God's learning system. It is far too important than to allow others to make the choices for us.

That's what I see. It's very clear! So much more information lives beyond the surface. We are all at different levels of understanding. We should not hate others learning lessons we have already learned. For those of us who must watch, it is just a reminder of what the best answers really are. In the end, we are all God's children and since there is no time limit on learning, we will all make it to that Heavenly state even if with baby steps.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
No one can control the actions of others, however we can control and choose our own actions. What will you choose??
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Regardless of how intelligent the abductors ever may be, it is mere speculation from your side to say that they will stop doing so, if in heaven where truth will be around. Even if intelligence comes into play, it is your speculation to say that intelligence will blot out their desire to abduct girls some day.
Even if there is "no need" to abduct girls, they might do so regardless. For fun.

So let me point out in detail where I think you resorted to speculation:
. Still, this person who abducts would never do it if they Understood all sides.
speculation.
Experiencing God's Unconditional Love, one wants to be just like God.
speculation.
In the end, we are all God's children
speculation.
we will all make it to that Heavenly state even if with baby steps.
speculation.

For all these quotes, there is no evidence which you could use to back these speculations up.

WE are living our lessons.
if girls are abducted... they have to suffer. Even if you'd place truth around them. The abducted girls do suffer, I think! Truth does not necessarily blot out suffering, as I see it.
You pity the abductor.
I feel sorry for the girls.
After all, given enough time and lessons, one will realize that is what one really wants to return.
how many times would you give the abductors the possibility to abduct again? The girls are the ones who would have to pay the price for it! Again and again. You cannot just promote unlimited amouns of lessons for them if other people have to suffer for it.

Universalism is such an ignorant stance, as I see it: it ignores the suffering some people could cause again.

one should protect people, however [...]
It is just the wrong statement at the wrong time, I think. One should protect the girls. Period. Of course they have a right to be angry about what the assaulters did to them!

edited to add last paragraph.
 
Last edited:

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Regardless of how intelligent the abductors ever may be, it is mere speculation from your side to say that they will stop doing so, if in heaven where truth will be around. Even if intelligence comes into play, it is your speculation to say that intelligence will blot out their desire to abduct girls some day.
Even if there is "no need" to abduct girls, they might do so regardless. For fun.

So let me point out in detail where I think you resorted to speculation:

speculation.

speculation.

speculation.

speculation.

For all these quotes, there is no evidence which you could use to back these speculations up.


if girls are abducted... they have to suffer. Even if you'd place truth around them. The abducted girls do suffer, I think! Truth does not necessarily blot out suffering, as I see it.
You pity the abductor.
I feel sorry for the girls.

how many times would you give the abductors the possibility to abduct again? The girls are the ones who would have to pay the price for it! Again and again. You cannot just promote unlimited amouns of lessons for them if other people have to suffer for it.

Universalism is such an ignorant stance, as I see it: it ignores the suffering some people could cause again.


It is just the wrong statement at the wrong time, I think. One should protect the girls. Period. Of course they have a right to be angry about what the assaulters did to them!

edited to add last paragraph.


What would happen if in their next lifetime, the abductor was the abducted girl? How about someone the abductor loved very much was abducted? How would that change their insight?? There are many sides to choices and actions.

How much of the view did you never see? More knowledge lives beyond the surface.

Yes. protect the girls. On the other hand, if there are lessons being learned, you will not be permitted to interfere with those lessons. Perhaps, you too are learning lessons with all this. Still, one can place Truth and Unconditional Love in the picture to help lead others forward.

I see you as walking a fine line. If you see the abductor as someone not fixable, subhuman, not worthy of God's Love or not a child of God, aren't you just Hating? Judging, Condemning and Wanting Payback? Should you not just want to fix the problem instead of valuing all those petty things??

How little mankind understands God? How little mankind understands real Power. Doesn't mankind attempt to alter the actions of others by inflicting pain or punishment? How is that working? When it doesn't work, is the only answer to discard them or fry them in Hell?

A Being capable of creating universes has to be very very smart. Why do you think such a Being could not fix it all without the anger, wrath, hate that really does not solve anything? Can't you think of a better way than frying or disowning your children??

A Love that feels so good, so complete that you would do anything for it. Can you really not conceive of this? In time, you will Discover Love is the most Powerful of all.

I have been on a Journey to Discovery for a very long time. That which you claim is speculation is not speculation at all. You lack the knowledge just like the abductor lacks his knowledge. The only difference is the type of knowledge and the degree. You are much farther down the road than the abductor. Is this really a reason to Hate?? I think not!! On the other hand, your choices are yours.

God is above all those petty things mankind holds so dear. God is at a Higher Level. Mankind will never get rid of problems like crime until they let all those petty things go and work at really solving those problems by understand the underlying causes of these problems. Frying, discarding and trying to alter the actions of others by inflicting pain, or locking them up, doing nothing and throwing the key away will solve nothing.

In the end, Brains will win. The knowledge to solve so many problems is within mankind's grasp. On the other hand, Discovery takes Work. The problems will never go away until they are solved. Saying they can not be fixed and doing nothing just invites others to do the came crime. If one chooses to do the very same thing, how can one expect different results??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
If you see the abductor as someone not fixable, subhuman, not worthy of God's Love or not a child of God, aren't you just Hating? Judging, Condemning and Wanting Payback? [...]
Saying they can not be fixed and doing nothing just invites others to do the came crime. If one chooses to do the very same thing, how can one expect different results??
I actually never said this. I said: giving them lesson after lesson has a price. How many women do they need to abduct to get a lesson learned? But the victims do have to have a price for these sorts of lessons. Their suffering is the price.
What would happen if in their next lifetime, the abductor was the abducted girl?
speculation.
But this line of reasoning doesn't work if you take pollution as an example. "what happens if next lifetime the pollutors are the polluted nature?" you see? Even if you hypothesize they get all the waste into their own backyard, it's speculation to say that they have any sort of a backyard to begin with next life.
The example of pollution also shows: lessons for the pollutors demand a price: nature.
The knowledge to solve so many problems is within mankind's grasp.
are you saying that polluting companies lack the knowledge or the brains? No they don't. Yet they don't behave properly.
Take for instance Bayer, they produce pesticides that, as a side effect, kill bees. They have all the knowledge, all the brains, all the intelligent people it takes to behave properly. Do they behave properly? No, I think. Would they change they behavior if they received some "unconditional love" as you call it? Nope, I think.
Even if love feels so good, as you say, would Bayer shareholders make a point and sell? It's your speculation again. Based on nothing, in my opinion.
You have nothing to back your assumption up that they would change if they know the underlying reasons and causes of the problems. They know everything they need to know. Yet they behave the way they do, it seems.


On the other hand, if there are lessons being learned, you will not be permitted to interfere with those lessons.
we should defend their human rights and not try to paint human rights violations as a useful lesson to be learned. I don't think it's loving from your side to find the "good side" of human rights violations.

Don't compare me to abductors, please, saying that I'm "farther down the road" than the abductors was a personal offence. I don't hate here. I don't throw a key away, as you say. I don't do the same things as the abductors, of course!

I stay with my opinion: what I called speculation was indeed speculation as you failed to back your claims up with facts.

BTW God has wrath for sinful men and it is not ours to criticise that, I think. Anger is normal, I think.

edited to add brown paragraph.
 
Last edited:

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I actually never said this. I said: giving them lesson after lesson has a price. How many women do they need to abduct to get a lesson learned? But the victims do have to have a price for these sorts of lessons. Their suffering is the price.

speculation.
But this line of reasoning doesn't work if you take pollution as an example. "what happens if next lifetime the pollutors are the polluted nature?" you see? Even if you hypothesize they get all the waste into their own backyard, it's speculation to say that they have any sort of a backyard to begin with next life.
The example of pollution also shows: lessons for the pollutors demand a price: nature.

are you saying that polluting companies lack the knowledge or the brains? No they don't. Yet they don't behave properly.
Take for instance Bayer, they produce pesticides that, as a side effect, kill bees. They have all the knowledge, all the brains, all the intelligent people it takes to behave properly. Do they behave properly? No, I think. Would they change they behavior if they received some "unconditional love" as you call it? Nope, I think.
Even if love feels so good, as you say, would Bayer shareholders make a point and sell? It's your speculation again. Based on nothing, in my opinion.
You have nothing to back your assumption up that they would change if they know the underlying reasons and causes of the problems. They know everything they need to know. Yet they behave the way they do, it seems.



we should defend their human rights and not try to paint human rights violations as a useful lesson to be learned. I don't think it's loving from your side to find the "good side" of human rights violations.

Don't compare me to abductors, please, saying that I'm "farther down the road" than the abductors was a personal offence. I don't hate here. I don't throw a key away, as you say. I don't do the same things as the abductors, of course!

I stay with my opinion: what I called speculation was indeed speculation as you failed to back your claims up with facts.

BTW God has wrath for sinful men and it is not ours to criticise that, I think. Anger is normal, I think.

edited to add brown paragraph.


You giving a lesson and God giving a lesson are entirely two different things.

You know there are many sides to all issues. Chemical companies do make chemicals with side effects. Drug companies make drugs with side effects. Sometimes, it's a trade off. What do we loose to get what. On the other hand, Greed is another petty thing mankind holds dear. There are lessons in greed as well. Sometimes the adversity that arrives due to greed will point one in the direction one needs to go.

It's easy to say speculation as an excuse not to work at solving problems. The first step to solving problems is to understand them along with the underlying causes of them. Remember, until the problem is solved, it will never go away, never.

your quote:we should defend their human rights and not try to paint human rights violations as a useful lesson to be learned. I don't think it's loving from your side to find the "good side" of human rights violations.
My Answer: AS I said. Protect yourself!!! Work at solving the problems rather than wanting pay back.

Free choice is an important part of God's learning process. If one did not have free choice, one would do the opposite as soon as one is free to choose just to discover what was missed.

Unlike mankind, God will not influence or intimidate those choices. People make bad choices. This merely points the direction of their learning. Good choices as well point the direction of learning only the lesson is not a hard lesson to learn.

your quote:Don't compare me to abductors, please, saying that I'm "farther down the road" than the abductors was a personal offence. I don't hate here.
My Answer: In a multilevel classroom, there are students at different levels. Since you would never abduct someone, that places you farther down the road. The abductor has not learned that lesson yet.

How does that bother you? We are all children of God? Do you think you are greater in God's eyes than any other of God's children? As for hating, ask yourself: What do you want to do with the abductor?? You will have your answer with your answer.

your quote:God has wrath for sinful men and it is not ours to criticise that, I think. Anger is normal, I think.
My Answer: Does God really have wrath??? What purpose does it serve? What is there to be angry about? Hasn't God seen it all before by now.

Control is a petty thing mankind holds so dear. Do you have a problem with control or the control of others? Do you get angry when others act differently than what you want? Why is controlling others so important to you?

God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear like control, wrath and anger. When a child of God makes a bad choice, God never gets angry. Why not? God knows that through God's system the child, in time, will learn the very best choices to make which is not abducting girls.

Why hate or get angry with wrath when the children are learning the right choices when their actions return to show them the other sides. Like I said. What purpose would anger and wrath serve except to generate hate?

So often people focus on the emotional side of things. Let's not forget a Being capable of creating universes must have a intellectual half. Follow the Math. It will lead to the solutions.

When you look at this world and it's people, remember God has a different goal. Mankind's goal is to have it made, live in Heaven. God's goal is the education of God's children. It will only add up understanding God's goal.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you believe there is something in religious teachings, mainly referring to the Abrahamic faiths, which allows their followers to be more susceptible to being manipulated than non-believers?
No.

Dennis Prager notes the proliferation of conspiracy theories, from alien abductions, to reptilian shapeshifters, to vaccine conspiracies, and he says that when people don't have religious beliefs, they don't believe in nothing, rather, they'll believe in anything.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
I think anger, in some instances, is like going to the toilet. What is that good for? It's to stay healthy.
Does God really have wrath??? What purpose does it serve? What is there to be angry about?
see Revelation 16:19.
Do you think you are greater in God's eyes than any other of God's children?
no

What do you want to do with the abductor??
God is judge. I am not.
It's easy to say speculation as an excuse not to work at solving problems.
I said you resorted to speculation. But this wasn't an excuse not to work.

I don't think I misunderstood the problems that Bayer is causing. Even if it's a trade-off... you shouldn't treat nature like a waste dump.

I stay with my opinion: universalism is blind to the risks that people are causing sometimes.

In the case of the girls, saying "protect yourself" is not enough. Human rights need a clear stance in favor of it.


that places you farther down the road.
sorry, I misunderstood here. But please continue treating me as you would any other poster... even if I, on hopefully rare occasions, misunderstand the finer lessons of English grammar.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
No.

Dennis Prager notes the proliferation of conspiracy theories, from alien abductions, to reptilian shapeshifters, to vaccine conspiracies, and he says that when people don't have religious beliefs, they don't believe in nothing, rather, they'll believe in anything.

I don't really think that religion prevents folks from believing in anything. Just adds one belief onto the pile.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Do you believe there is something in religious teachings, mainly referring to the Abrahamic faiths, which allows their followers to be more susceptible to being manipulated than non-believers?

I'm talking about what is written. A passage we can look at and say this teaching makes it easier for others to manipulate the followers of this religion to for example commit violent acts.

Or is it possible the culture that has developed around a particular faith makes a follower more susceptible to manipulation?

Or nothing about their belief makes them any more susceptible to manipulation than anyone else. For example, an atheist is as likely to be manipulated into committing a violent act as anyone else.

A fourth possibility is that people who commit violent acts are aberrations. People who by their nature are violent and any violence attributed to them would happen regardless of their religious belief or lack thereof?

Can religion cause people to act, violently for example, which otherwise, without their religious beliefs, they would not do so?

I'm asking why you feel that way and what evidence you have, if any, to support your feelings.
If people peruse Quran carefully, Quran has the most peaceful teachings, I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you believe there is something in religious teachings, mainly referring to the Abrahamic faiths, which allows their followers to be more susceptible to being manipulated than non-believers?
Consider some of the nonsense that people will believe:

  • That vaccines are more harmful than not being vaccinated
  • That the world is run be a secret cabal of criminals
  • That the democrats run a child pornography ring out of pizza parlors
  • That Hillary Clinton is a reptilian shapeshifter
  • I could go on and on.
It's certainly not just religious sorts that believe these paranoid conspiracy theories. NONBELIEVERS are just as prone.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Do you believe there is something in religious teachings, mainly referring to the Abrahamic faiths, which allows their followers to be more susceptible to being manipulated than non-believers?

I'm talking about what is written. A passage we can look at and say this teaching makes it easier for others to manipulate the followers of this religion to for example commit violent acts.

Or is it possible the culture that has developed around a particular faith makes a follower more susceptible to manipulation?

Or nothing about their belief makes them any more susceptible to manipulation than anyone else. For example, an atheist is as likely to be manipulated into committing a violent act as anyone else.

A fourth possibility is that people who commit violent acts are aberrations. People who by their nature are violent and any violence attributed to them would happen regardless of their religious belief or lack thereof?

Can religion cause people to act, violently for example, which otherwise, without their religious beliefs, they would not do so?

I'm asking why you feel that way and what evidence you have, if any, to support your feelings.
History in fact tells us, Islam and Christianity had gone violent. Though Hinduism had its own time of violence. Even Buddhism or Zoroastrism.
The only Religion does not have a history of violence is the Bahai Faith.
When Bahaullah declared He has a new Revelation, the very first thing He said, was, the law of holy war is to be abolished. He also said, it is better to die than to kill. By these words He closed every possibility for scripture manipulation to justify violence, for His followers.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
History in fact tells us, Islam and Christianity had gone violent. Though Hinduism had its own time of violence. Even Buddhism or Zoroastrism.
The only Religion does not have a history of violence is the Bahai Faith.
When Bahaullah declared He has a new Revelation, the very first thing He said, was, the law of holy war is to be abolished. He also said, it is better to die than to kill. By these words He closed every possibility for scripture manipulation to justify violence, for His followers.

So, did these other religions encourage violence or is somehow man at fault?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
So, did these other religions encourage violence or is somehow man at fault?
I believe it was certainly man's fault. They took some verses from their holy Books, and interpreted them to suit their purpose. Now their purpose was to conquer and dominate.
In some cases, Holy Books allowed to use force for defense only. They interpreted these verses to justify attacking.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I believe it was certainly man's fault. They took some verses from their holy Books, and interpreted them to suit their purpose. Now their purpose was to conquer and dominate.
In some cases, Holy Books allowed to use force for defense only. They interpreted these verses to justify attacking.

So, couldn't the same happen with Baha'i?
 
Top