Is the trinity polytheism? my answer

Starlight · Nov 9, 2020

I believe the answer is no. But the trinity is not strict monotheism.

I'm not a christian and I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in strict monotheism, but I want to defend the christians on this matter. It is not correct to say christians is polytheists

In the offical trinity doctrine the three persons in God has same essence. The essence is the divine substance that binds them together as one God. Because of this the three persons in God can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

For example two humans who is always togheter as one because both two humans has one hand that is fused together in the other's hand, and they both has one leg that is fused togheter in the other persons leg. They also share the same blood literaly. The same blood passes through both of their bodies. And if doctor do surgery because he want to split the two humans apart they both die.

And yes i know this is a bad example because two humans is not God. God is pure spirit. God do not die. And God is spiritual not physical.

The difference between the offical trinity and the mormon version of trinity is that in mormon version the father, son and holy spirit do not have a divine substance that bind them togheter as one. So they can be completely separated from each other, like two gods in some mythology.

But in the offical trinity version the father, son and holy spirit can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

The offical trinity is a kind of monotheism when the three persons in God share a essence that binds them together as one God. And the three persons in the offical trinity also always is one in purpose and will. Two different gods in mythology do not often have exactly the same will.

What do you think about what I wrote in this tread?

Brickjectivity · Nov 9, 2020

Meandflower said:
What do you think about what I wrote in this tread?

Since the churches have splintered the trinity has been reinvented a number of times. Not everybody derives it philosophically. It not easy to study its origins and requires heavy reading or taking a class or both. To have a beneficial conversation about it requires the will to be in unity before you discuss. I've never heard of people being unified through argument about it. Its usually a point of confusion or contention or else acquiescence.

Starlight · Nov 9, 2020

Brickjectivity said:
Since the churches have splintered the trinity has been reinvented a number of times. Not everybody derives it philosophically. It not easy to study its origins and requires heavy reading or taking a class or both. To have a beneficial conversation about it requires the will to be in unity before you discuss. I've never heard of people being unified through argument about it. Its usually a point of confusion or contention or else acquiescence.

Thats true. The trinity is a little confusing.

Rival · Nov 9, 2020

I think the trinity is soft polytheistic nonsense. It's nothing like the G-d of Tanakh in my opinion. It has three component parts. It's the same with Jesus being somehow fully god and fully man; it makes sense pretty much only to Christians, I think, and even certain Christian groups have rejected this as blasphemy or otherwise wrong. To me, dividing the One G-d is taking away from His Oneness and therefore is not pure monotheism of the kind in the Tanakh.

Starlight · Nov 9, 2020

Rival said:
I think the trinity is soft polytheistic nonsense. It's nothing like the G-d of Tanakh in my opinion. It has three component parts. It's the same with Jesus being somehow fully god and fully man; it makes sense pretty much only to Christians, I think, and even certain Christian groups have rejected this as blasphemy or otherwise wrong. To me, dividing the One G-d is taking away from His Oneness and therefore is not pure monotheism of the kind in the Tanakh.

Yes but christians think it is soft monotheism. So in reality the trinity is not monotheism or polyteism. The trinity is none of them.

I personally believe in strict/pure monotheism just like judaism, but I do think it wise to try to understand what the trinity is, and why christian think it is soft monotheism. Its a question about interfaith.

Yes many non-christians do not agree that the trinity is soft monotheism but i think they can at the same time accept that christians believe it without make fun of it. It is possible to accept others belief without agreeing.

Starlight · Nov 9, 2020

Rival said:
I think the trinity is soft polytheistic nonsense. It's nothing like the G-d of Tanakh in my opinion. It has three component parts. It's the same with Jesus being somehow fully god and fully man; it makes sense pretty much only to Christians, I think, and even certain Christian groups have rejected this as blasphemy or otherwise wrong. To me, dividing the One G-d is taking away from His Oneness and therefore is not pure monotheism of the kind in the Tanakh.

Can you move this tread to interfaith? The reason is this:

Yes many non-christians do not agree that the trinity is soft monotheism but i think they can at the same time accept that christians believe it without make fun of it. It is possible to accept others belief without agreeing.

paarsurrey · Nov 26, 2020

Meandflower said:
I believe the answer is no. But the trinity is not strict monotheism.

I'm not a christian and I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in strict monotheism, but I want to defend the christians on this matter. It is not correct to say christians is polytheists

In the offical trinity doctrine the three persons in God has same essence. The essence is the divine substance that binds them together as one God. Because of this the three persons in God can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

For example two humans who is always togheter as one because both two humans has one hand that is fused together in the other's hand, and they both has one leg that is fused togheter in the other persons leg. They also share the same blood literaly. The same blood passes through both of their bodies. And if doctor do surgery because he want to split the two humans apart they both die.

And yes i know this is a bad example because two humans is not God. God is pure spirit. God do not die. And God is spiritual not physical.

The difference between the offical trinity and the mormon version of trinity is that in mormon version the father, son and holy spirit do not have a divine substance that bind them togheter as one. So they can be completely separated from each other, like two gods in some mythology.

But in the offical trinity version the father, son and holy spirit can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

The offical trinity is a kind of monotheism when the three persons in God share a essence that binds them together as one God. And the three persons in the offical trinity also always is one in purpose and will. Two different gods in mythology do not often have exactly the same will.

What do you think about what I wrote in this tread?

" I believe the answer is no."

I don't agree with one. Jesus and Mary did not believe in Trinity, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

Glaurung · Nov 27, 2020

The Trinity is easy to understand yet impossible to comprehend.

Christianity states that God exists as three distinct persons in one divine substance. Each person is wholly God. Not a part of God, or a modality of God, but God entire. Yet somehow, God is still one god. One divinity. Thus it is monotheistic. Thus Christians affirm with honest conviction that there is no other God but the LORD.

What this actually looks like is impossible for the human mind to imagine. But Christians take it on faith that this is what God has revealed about himself.

IndigoChild5559 · Nov 27, 2020

Musing Bassist said:
The Trinity is easy to understand yet impossible to comprehend.

Christianity states that God exists as three distinct persons in one divine substance. Each person is wholly God. Not a part of God, or a modality of God, but God entire. Yet somehow, God is still one god. One divinity. Thus it is monotheistic. Thus Christians affirm with honest conviction that there is no other God but the LORD.

What this actually looks like is impossible for the human mind to imagine. But Christians take it on faith that this is what God has revealed about himself.

I don't think the Trinity is easy to understand at all. Most Christians think they are trinitarian, but when you ask them what they actually believe, they are something else like a modalist or whatnot.

I began a study of the formation of Trinitarian orthodoxy in the Church because it was when Jesus became God that Jews began to be accused of deicide, and I'm always trying to understand anti-Semitism.

Once I started studying I got into the minutiae. I'm telling you, wherever I go, when Christians try to explain the Trinity, they ultimately end up describing a known heresy (according to the church) of one type or another. It really either takes a very humble sort who just sticks to "One God, three person" and says no more, or else a highly trained theologian, to discuss the trinity without entering into what Christians would call a heresy.

Glaurung · Nov 27, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
I don't think the Trinity is easy to understand at all. Most Christians think they are trinitarian, but when you ask them what they actually believe, they are something else like a modalist or whatnot.

Catechesis has been abysmal for many decades. And it seems that many Christians who claim to take their faith seriously have evidently never taken the time to study even the basics of that faith. It is a scandal. I think if there is one thing in which Christians should emulate the Jews it is in their emphasis on study. It is not as if Christians don't have an intellectual tradition of their own to draw from.

IndigoChild5559 said:
I began a study of the formation of Trinitarian orthodoxy in the Church because it was when Jesus became God that Jews began to be accused of deicide, and I'm always trying to understand anti-Semitism.

Well, "trinitarian orthodoxy" would reject the notion that Jesus - became - God.

Nonetheless, the Gospels are clear that the Sanhedrin were the chief instigators for the Crucifixion. But I agree that the charge that the Jews are collectively and perpetually guilty for an event that occurred in first century Jerusalem is nonsensical. Now if you want me to acknowledge that historically, the Christian treatment of Jews was often abusive then fine, I make no attempt to deny that. But it is not relevant to the intended discussion.

IndigoChild5559 said:
Once I started studying I got into the minutiae. I'm telling you, wherever I go, when Christians try to explain the Trinity, they ultimately end up describing a known heresy (according to the church) of one type or another. It really either takes a very humble sort who just sticks to "One God, three person" and says no more, or else a highly trained theologian, to discuss the trinity without entering into what Christians would call a heresy.

As I said, modern catechesis is a failure.

And it is pertinent that you say this. As when I composed my first post in this thread I considered giving some thoughts on the dangers in trying to rationalize a divine mystery. Without deep study and a strong grounding in Church tradition you are almost certain to fall into error. And this pertains to theology in general not just to the discussion of one particular doctrine. I acknowledge that it is ironic to post the following statement on an internet forum, but I think people should read more and type less.

paarsurrey · Nov 27, 2020

Musing Bassist said:
Catechesis has been abysmal for many decades. And it seems that many Christians who claim to take their faith seriously have evidently never taken the time to study even the basics of that faith. It is a scandal. I think if there is one thing in which Christians should emulate the Jews it is in their emphasis on study. It is not as if Christians don't have an intellectual tradition of their own to draw from.

Well, "trinitarian orthodoxy" would reject the notion that Jesus - became - God.

Nonetheless, the Gospels are clear that the Sanhedrin were the chief instigators for the Crucifixion. But I agree that the charge that the Jews are collectively and perpetually guilty for an event that occurred in first century Jerusalem is nonsensical. Now if you want me to acknowledge that historically, the Christian treatment of Jews was often abusive then fine, I make no attempt to deny that. But it is not relevant to the intended discussion.

As I said, modern catechesis is a failure.

And it is pertinent that you say this. As when I composed my first post in this thread I considered giving some thoughts on the dangers in trying to rationalize a divine mystery. Without deep study and a strong grounding in Church tradition you are almost certain to fall into error. And this pertains to theology in general not just to the discussion of one particular doctrine. I acknowledge that it is ironic to post the following statement on an internet forum, but I think people should read more and type less.

Trinity, I understand, is not a mystery at all, it is simply wrong as both Jesus and Mary rejected it with their deeds. Jesus and Mary, only worshiped "G-d the Father", they never worshiped the so called "Holy Ghost god" and or the so called "Jesus god " and or prayed to them. Did they, please?
If yes, then kindly quote from Jesus and or Mary in this connection, please.
Right, please?

Regards

Melissa Fuentes · Nov 29, 2020

Hi..Jesus tells us " do not change one letter". After he explains the LAW, " do not change any words". It is complete blaspheme to even use the word "trinity" . It does NOT exist in the entire Bible. Additionally, He tells us that we can BLASPHEME against him, meaning to call him God. Jesus says, "blaspheme against the Holy Ghost shall NEVER be forgiven." This is a CLEAR line in his telling us that he and the Holy Ghost are NOT the same. Do not refur to the Holy Ghost as God. Do not teach or preach or argue a word that is made up by the flesh (trinity)! FOLLOW CHRIST!!! Not the teachings of man or his organizations. Read your scripture, pray the Holy Ghost teaches you all things. BUT, know there is only ONE GOD. He created all the rest of EVERYTHING!!!!! His name is GOD, He is omnipotent, all the rest are under His will and His power.
All religions are to worship Him. There is only ONE GOD. Your GOD is my GOD. Because He is the only GOD!!! He is the GOD of all people, Christian, moslem, hindu, atheist , ALL!!! He is the GOD of what you like and what you do not like. He is the GOD of EVERYTHING.
This is explained in almost every religious text. There is only ONE GOD. The arguing and the pating of each others back when the flesh agrees with each other is Satan. Which GOD also created. The Darkness exists, therefore GOD created him. Your liking or disliking is mute.

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 29, 2020

Melissa Fuentes said:
New Hi..Jesus tells us " do not change one letter". After he explains the LAW, " do not change any words". It is complete blaspheme to even use the word "trinity" . It does NOT exist in the entire Bible.

No English words exist in the Bible... not in the original version, anyhow.

Melissa Fuentes · Nov 29, 2020

There seems to be a practice of using more than one text in these conversations. Some like to refer to the "Greek" text. This is most always when there is despite. If you dismiss ANY of the translated King James Bible, you must DISMISS it ALL. I once asked a young pastor if he would like to furnish his own translation with his own name on the front.

Saint Frankenstein · Nov 29, 2020

Musing Bassist said:
Without deep study and a strong grounding in Church tradition you are almost certain to fall into error. And this pertains to theology in general not just to the discussion of one particular doctrine. I acknowledge that it is ironic to post the following statement on an internet forum, but I think people should read more and type less.

Well, then the vast majority of Christians for the past 2,000 years probably "fell into error", since most were illiterate, poor and lacked formal education. You shouldn't need a doctorate to understand your religion, particularly if it's essential for your salvation. I guess hell is going to be piled high with illiterate Christians who misunderstood their own faith. :shrug:

Unveiled Artist · Nov 29, 2020

Meandflower said:
I believe the answer is no. But the trinity is not strict monotheism.

I'm not a christian and I do not believe in the trinity. I believe in strict monotheism, but I want to defend the christians on this matter. It is not correct to say christians is polytheists

In the offical trinity doctrine the three persons in God has same essence. The essence is the divine substance that binds them together as one God. Because of this the three persons in God can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

For example two humans who is always togheter as one because both two humans has one hand that is fused together in the other's hand, and they both has one leg that is fused togheter in the other persons leg. They also share the same blood literaly. The same blood passes through both of their bodies. And if doctor do surgery because he want to split the two humans apart they both die.

And yes i know this is a bad example because two humans is not God. God is pure spirit. God do not die. And God is spiritual not physical.

The difference between the offical trinity and the mormon version of trinity is that in mormon version the father, son and holy spirit do not have a divine substance that bind them togheter as one. So they can be completely separated from each other, like two gods in some mythology.

But in the offical trinity version the father, son and holy spirit can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

The offical trinity is a kind of monotheism when the three persons in God share a essence that binds them together as one God. And the three persons in the offical trinity also always is one in purpose and will. Two different gods in mythology do not often have exactly the same will.

What do you think about what I wrote in this tread?

I see it as this. God is said to be a spirit being. When a spirit being is incarnated, the only difference is they take on flesh. The flesh doesn't separate them as separate beings. It's like if a person stood naked (his actual self). He put on clothes. He is still the same person but has clothes on.

As for the holy spirit, I'm not sure about that. If god is spirit, I'm not sure how spirit can come from another spirit. It could mean god's love. Love being the holy spirit. God being the being that gives it (so he doesn't give himself but the emotion he has to give to those who believe in him).

Love, incarnation, and being/creator are inseparable. Hence the tri-nity.

If it were polytheism, they would be three different creators. Since there is one creator, one incarnation, and one spirit/love and they are all interrelated, they can't be seen as separate gods.

I guess another way to put it is

You have John who is naked (Creator).
John puts on clothes so he can go out in public (clothes-flesh)
John "gives" others (the spirit of) respect. He gives (the spirit of) love to his boyfriend. He gives (the spirit of) compassion to people he cares for.

There is only one John (monotheism) regardless the clothes he wears and the types of emotions and relationships based on it he shares with others. But since everything is irrelated, "they are one."

I think that's why it's called tr-nity and not unity. One god. Three expressions of it-creator, flesh, spirit.

Melissa Fuentes · Nov 29, 2020

Jesus teaches us to FALLOW Him. Not hate. Not judge. Scripture is the "WORD" of GOD. "GOD (said) let there be light." This is not the sun or the moon. They were created on the fourth day. Jesus was spoken into existence. He IS the word of GOD. I do not wish to upset anyone who reads these post. My only purpose is to obey my creator. Through the Holy Ghost and the WORD. You people scare the crap out of me. So negative...so hell fire and death....

Unveiled Artist · Nov 29, 2020

Melissa Fuentes said:
Jesus teaches us to FALLOW Him. Not hate. Not judge. Scripture is the "WORD" of GOD. "GOD (said) let there be light." This is not the sun or the moon. They were created on the fourth day. Jesus was spoken into existence. He IS the word of GOD. I do not wish to upset anyone who reads these post. My only purpose is to obey my creator. Through the Holy Ghost and the WORD. You people scare the crap out of me. So negative...so hell fire and death....

Be mindful people will disagree with you "and that's okay."

Not all of us are negative. It's just based on our personal experiences and interpretations of the christian religion. We have heard "Scripture is the word of god" Sooooo many times that we can probably guess what theists say/quote before they do so.

I learned from experience here it helps to be more introspective, take a breather, and be yourself.

Glaurung · Nov 29, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
Well, then the vast majority of Christians for the past 2,000 years probably "fell into error", since most were illiterate, poor and lacked formal education. You shouldn't need a doctorate to understand your religion, particularly if it's essential for your salvation. I guess hell is going to be piled high with illiterate Christians who misunderstood their own faith.

You do not need a deep and intricate understanding of theology and the technicalities of Catholic doctrine to save your soul. You just need to be in a state of grace. (Which does not require literacy). To understand all the main (essential) points of Catholic truth is well within the capabilities of the average person who exercises even minimum diligence. In a world of near universal literacy and unprecedented access to information the ignorance of so many today is vincible.

Starlight · Dec 2, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
Well, then the vast majority of Christians for the past 2,000 years probably "fell into error", since most were illiterate, poor and lacked formal education. You shouldn't need a doctorate to understand your religion, particularly if it's essential for your salvation. I guess hell is going to be piled high with illiterate Christians who misunderstood their own faith.

Not one place in the new testament say that you have to believe in trinity to be saved. That is just a docterine of man.

Is the trinity polytheism? my answer

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