Why MAGA Is a Bad Thing

exchemist · Nov 25, 2020

Revoltingest said:
Does this apply to black pride & gay pride?

Or Proud Boys , like this one

:

SomeRandom · Nov 25, 2020

joe1776 said:
Regular folks have been doing tribalism and nationalism forever. Regular folks have also been fighting wars forever.

True. Humans seem to be intrinsically tribalistic.
I don’t think every nationalist is necessarily a supremacist. Some people genuinely take pride in their own country. That’s fine.
But the overlap of supremacists within certain nationalist circles is a bit hard for me to defend.

joe1776 · Nov 25, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
Merkel is the de facto ruler of the EU and the most powerful European leader, so of course she will opose nationalist movements. It weakens her power and standing since she's pushing so hard for open borders. So what she has to say about it means nothing to me. I cheer my fellow nationalists in Europe on.

Would you have cheered the German nationalists on in 1933?

Audie · Nov 25, 2020

SomeRandom said:
I don’t know if that’s true. Trump did seem to Stoke the fires, so to speak. But behind “politician speak.” Clumsy as it appeared to me. But still. He condemned both sides of the Charlottesville incident, iirc. One side which had literal no joke torch wielding Nazis. I’ve seen the footage for myself back when it happened. Unless they were fighting like idk the New Black Panthers, I don’t see how one could say such a thing and not be labelled a racist sympathiser.

Whether or not Trump is specifically racist, I can’t say. Maybe he’s egalitarian, idk.
I have many issues with the man, but I do think he appealed to people who were upset at the current political system. Many of who are just regular folk, to be clear.
But some who are ostracised due to what are now considered outdated beliefs. Make of that what you will.

I just think like all politicians he only saw such supporters as stepping stones to power. But I’m cynical of politics in general.

America does seem to have a racism problem. But there’s so many weird layers to it. I can barely keep up with my own country’s scarred history, let alone America’s. Maybe it’s because the country is still relatively young. Still. Idk.

Sure there is a racial problem in the USA.
Some got aimed at me.

I doubt any country is free of it.

I never saw a racist statement from trump.

Harel13 · Nov 25, 2020

joe1776 said:
It's that HE is wonderful and they are HIS groups.

I think it's the other way around: The groups are wonderful with their morals, worldviews, traditions, achievements, etc and they make the individuals feel wonderful. The individuals in turn, want to preserve this specialness, and do so by maintaining pride of their groups, to ensure the positive qualities are preserved. While it's true that some people would be just as proud were they born into another group, I don't see why that would necessarily be a bad thing. It just means that there are multiple groups with noteworthy qualities.

SigurdReginson · Nov 25, 2020

SomeRandom said:
He condemned both sides of the Charlottesville incident, iirc. One side which had literal no joke torch wielding Nazis.

If I remember correctly, he actually said that there were good people on both sides (including the literal torch wielding nazis)... Though later, he did specifically condemn the violent actors; people often like to forget that part.

Saint Frankenstein · Nov 25, 2020

joe1776 said:
Would you have cheered the German nationalists on in 1933?

I'm not even going to dignify such an insulting and stupid question with an answer.

SomeRandom · Nov 25, 2020

Audie said:
Sure there is a racial problem in the USA.
Some got aimed at me.

I doubt any country is free of it.

I never saw a racist statement from trump.

Because Trump is a politician with a PR team. You don’t go on stage and spout racist garbage without getting bombarded back to the dark ages. (Unless you’re at a KKK rally, I guess.) It’s political suicide. Even Trump knows that. Why do you think there’s the concept of “dog whistles?”
Even still, where there’s smoke there’s fire. And I’d be lying if I said I didn’t see a lot of smoke come from Trump these last four years.

SomeRandom · Nov 25, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
If I remember correctly, he actually said that there were good people on both sides (including the literal torch wielding nazis)... Though later, he did specifically condemn the violent actors; people often like to forget that part.

Oh yeah, that’s right. I saw that on the news after I saw the torch rally on YouTube. Big yikes!

74x12 · Nov 25, 2020

joe1776 said:
Was it OK for the Nazis to think that Germans were a Master Race and therefore entitled to take more living space (Lebensraum) by force from their neighbors to the East?

Of course not. That's racism first of all rather than just nationalism and secondly most things in excess are automatically bad. Like excessively cracking down on people's sense of national pride can also be a bad thing.

joe1776 said:
Japan's nationalism (excessive pride) led them to be oppressors in WW2. German's nationalism (excessive pride) cause the war in Europe.

True, and the USA fought against both of those to stop their excessive nationalism and racism. The USA is less nationalistic now than it was back then. But you think that nationalism is getting worse in the USA?

joe1776 said:
You're missing the point. We not talking about superior policies. We're talking about being superior in human rights.

I didn't see you mention human rights in your OP ... please explain.

Saint Frankenstein · Nov 25, 2020

SomeRandom said:
To be fair, I suspect nationalism rings differently in Europe, particularly in Germany than other parts of the world.
I mean in America national pride seems almost intrinsic to your culture.
Germans have probably been eyeing that with suspicion since like the 40s. For “historic reasons.” I don’t think that’s fair on them. But idk
My German uncle has several times jokingly lamented to me that politicians in Germany have tried their best to be as milquetoast as possible, so as to not repeat a certain moustachioed leader.

Yeah, Germans continue to be hypocritically held to a different standard than the rest of the world.

Evangelicalhumanist · Nov 25, 2020

Revoltingest said:
Does this apply to black pride & gay pride?

You, sir, are baiting. Might be fun to see what you catch.

joe1776 · Nov 25, 2020

Harel13 said:
I think it's the other way around: The groups are wonderful with their morals, worldviews, traditions, achievements, etc and they make the individuals feel wonderful. The individuals in turn, want to preserve this specialness, and do so by maintaining pride of their groups, to ensure the positive qualities are preserved. While it's true that some people would be just as proud were they born into another group, I don't see why that would necessarily be a bad thing. It just means that there are multiple groups with noteworthy qualities.

Your explanation, while logical, sounds like a weak attempt to substitute another cause to me. Moreover, in any group, we find people who need to feel like they are the elite, Catholics who feel like they are superior Catholics, for example. I can explain their behavior as arrogance also but you would need to find a different cause than the one you offered for group pride.

Audie · Nov 25, 2020

SomeRandom said:
Because Trump is a politician with a PR team. You don’t go on stage and spout racist garbage without getting bombarded back to the dark ages. (Unless you’re at a KKK rally, I guess.) It’s political suicide. Even Trump knows that. Why do you think there’s the concept of “dog whistles?”
Even still, where there’s smoke there’s fire. And I’d be lying if I said I didn’t see a lot of smoke come from Trump these last four years.

So nothing he said

Nakosis · Nov 25, 2020

Revoltingest said:
Does this apply to black pride & gay pride?

Aww, beat me to it.

I don't take pride in being White or American. I do take pride in what I do. I think we can take pride when together as Americas we work to improve life in America. Or work together to improve life elsewhere as well.

No pride in what you are but pride in what you do and sometimes what you do as a group.

Can Black folks work to improve the lives of Black folks without it being racist?
Can White folks work to improve the lives of White folks without it being racist? :shrug:

Audie · Nov 25, 2020

SigurdReginson said:
If I remember correctly, he actually said that there were good people on both sides (including the literal torch wielding nazis)... Though later, he did specifically condemn the violent actors; people often like to forget that part.

One side included some torch weilders...
The other side were angels?

Some good people on both sides of statue issue.

Simple.

That the Charlottesville thing is exhibit A, and
has to be tweaked to make it look bad show great dishonesty on the part of those so determined to make Trump a " racist ".

joe1776 · Nov 25, 2020

74x12 said:
Of course not. That's racism first of all rather than just nationalism and secondly most things in excess are automatically bad. Like excessively cracking down on people's sense of national pride can also be a bad thing.

I explained in the OP why I think that group pride, whether it's nationalism or racism are caused by arrogance. I don't see that "cracking down" on a human flaw is a bad thing.

True, and the USA fought against both of those to stop their excessive nationalism and racism. The USA is less nationalistic now than it was back then. But you think that nationalism is getting worse in the USA?

I suspect that nationalism is diminishing globally but it still exists everywhere because the problem (group pride) has been thought to be a virtue.

I didn't see you mention human rights in your OP ... please explain.

Arrogance is the need to feel superior in human value to others.

Audie · Nov 25, 2020

Nakosis said:
Aww, beat me to it.

I don't take pride in being White or American. I do take pride in what I do. I think we can take pride when together as Americas we work to improve life in America. Or work together to improve life elsewhere as well.

No pride in what you are but pride in what you do and sometimes what you do as a group.

Can Black folks work to improve the lives of Black folks without it being racist?
Can White folks work to improve the lives of White folks without it being racist?

I don't take pride in being Asian, but don't care
to be put down for it.

SomeRandom · Nov 25, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
Yeah, Germans continue to be hypocritically held to a different standard than the rest of the world.

I feel like this could backfire in a big way. I mean didn’t the German people feel unfairly blamed for WWI, not to mention being collectively shamed by the world stage. Resentment growing until it was pretty (almost) primed for a surge in dangerous levels of nationalism. I know Mr Moustache was a bit extreme for many even back then. But he was able to capitalise on the folk who felt hard done by nonetheless.

SomeRandom · Nov 25, 2020

Audie said:
So nothing he said

Actions speak louder than words. If you do nothing to curb growing racism amongst your side, you might as well be endorsing it. As a political leader I mean

Why MAGA Is a Bad Thing

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