Christianity vs Baha'i

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
There is no proof that Jesus was ever resurrected from the dead. Anyone can write a story about multiple witnesses but since there was nobody outside of the story itself to confirm it, it may as well be fiction.

And why didn't the Jews and Romans prove them wrong? And none of the "witnesses" ever squealed? That ain't good 'cause some of the witnesses were the apostles. They lied? And Mary too. Each gospel puts her there. These guys are worse than the phony TV evangelists and faith healers. And that is not a corruption?

Trailblazer said:
Baha'is do not believe that the Bible has been corrupted, because Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible has not been corrupted.

But yes, Baha'u'llah did say the Bible is wrong. I just posted the thing about Ishmael vs. Isaac. Either the Bible is wrong or Baha'u'llah is. Of course it is doubtful Moses wrote the Bible, so whoever did could have easily wrote things in that didn't really happen. And maybe things that God never said, like stone to death people for breaking the Sabbath. Like God telling Joshua to have his men kill all the men, women and children in Jericho. But then, the Bible wouldn't be "The Word of God"? Should we demote it to "The Word of Some Guys About What They Thought God Said"? But isn't that what it really is? Some guys wrote it. How did they know the stories? Do we really trust that they didn't add things in?

Skywalker · Nov 25, 2020

InvestigateTruth said:
Jesus was a Manifestation of God, who was also a Prophet as He alluded to Himself as Prophet. He was a Messenger, in a sense that, the father had sent Him, to deliver a revelation.
He was also, in my view, God of the Age.

Wierd post deleted.

Skywalker · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
And why didn't the Jews and Romans prove them wrong? And none of the "witnesses" ever squealed? That ain't good 'cause some of the witnesses were the apostles. They lied? And Mary too. Each gospel puts her there. These guys are worse than the phony TV evangelists and faith healers. And that is not a corruption?

But yes, Baha'u'llah did say the Bible is wrong. I just posted the thing about Ishmael vs. Isaac. Either the Bible is wrong or Baha'u'llah is. Of course it is doubtful Moses wrote the Bible, so whoever did could have easily wrote things in that didn't really happen. And maybe things that God never said, like stone to death people for breaking the Sabbath. Like God telling Joshua to have his men kill all the men, women and children in Jericho. But then, the Bible wouldn't be "The Word of God"? Should we demote it to "The Word of Some Guys About What They Thought God Said"? But isn't that what it really is? Some guys wrote it. How did they know the stories? Do we really trust that they didn't add things in?

Wierd post deleted.

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
@ CG Didymus

Skywalker said:
The Bible has not been corrupted. Has the Bible been corrupted, altered, edited, revised, or tampered with? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Has the Bible been corrupted, altered, edited, revised, or tampered with?"

Answer: The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 BC to 400 BC. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately AD 40 to AD 90. So, anywhere between 3,400 and 1,900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost. They very likely no longer exist. Since the time the books of the Bible were originally written, they have been copied again and again by scribes. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

Given what that Christian website above says, there is no reason to think that the Bible/Torah was accurate regarding Isaac being the one who was sacrificed.

"The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance...."

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice

"Irrelevant"? Just a slight change. Just a slight accusation that hundreds and hundreds of years ago the scribes decided to change the story? Makes zero sense. Isaac is a major part of the ongoing story. And, the NT supports that it was Isaac. But then again, a true, literal, historically accurate story? If not, and if just a fictional story, why would Baha'u'llah change it? Does he therefore think it was a true story? That God spoke to Abraham and told him to sacrifice his son? And stupid Abraham listened? He didn't think that maybe that was not God speaking to him?

True in "substance"? What substance? People died because of the supposed laws of God. People died because people said that God told them to kill those people. Christians let themselves be killed and wouldn't recant their faith that Jesus was God. Christians killed people that denied Jesus was God.

Trailblazer · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
But the whole concept of The Messiah is something made up by Jews.

No, the concept of a Messianic figure, a world redeemer, exists in all the great religions.

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

"Zoroastrianism which is the original religion of Persia or what is now Iran, is rich with many ideas concerning the end times and the coming of the chosen or future deliverer. A hugely influential religion, it is believed that the Jewish idea of the Messiah is derived from the earlier Zoroastrian notion of the Saoshyant. Zoroastrian ideas for the end times seem to have made their way not only into Judaism but also Christianity and Islam."

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Skywalker said:
The reason that the israelites killed all the men women and children in Jericho is that it wouldn't be fair to kill some and spare some because God is not the respector of persons. That is why rahab was only spared and allowed to flee because of the special act that she did. A lot of people there begged for mercy probably, but the reason God judged their sins in a harsh way was also to clear up space for the Israelites. Letting Rahab and her family flee or escape in any other way wouldn't have worked because it wouldn't be fair and at that point they would have had nowhere to go. It's like Daniel was judged alongside his community. Rahab was judged even though she wasn't a temple prostitute because God shows no partiality.

Here's where I'm more in line with Trailblazer. I think it is very possible, and probable, that these are just stories. Stories about a people and their God. Their God helps them when they obey and punishes them when they don't. He is the true God and all the other Gods of the other people are false Gods. All those people had creation myths, even flood myths and God/men heroes and saviors.

But, I don't like how the Baha'is have created a situation where they can pick and choose what is true and what if false... and what is literal and what is symbolic in the Bible. I'm glad that you and a couple of others are here supporting your Christian beliefs, though. After all, you might be right. Thanks for your explanation.

Trailblazer · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
Well, I think the Lamb is the one it says will return. I think it at the very least implies that the Lamb is Jesus.

You can think whatever you want to, but Jesus never said He was going to return, that is simply a Christian hope.
That is precisely why all the prophecies have been fulfilled and still no Jesus has appeared.

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
No, the concept of a Messianic figure, a world redeemer, exists in all the great religions.

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

"Zoroastrianism which is the original religion of Persia or what is now Iran, is rich with many ideas concerning the end times and the coming of the chosen or future deliverer. A hugely influential religion, it is believed that the Jewish idea of the Messiah is derived from the earlier Zoroastrian notion of the Saoshyant. Zoroastrian ideas for the end times seem to have made their way not only into Judaism but also Christianity and Islam."

Okay, Jews borrowed the concept from Zoroastrianism and put into their stories. That someday a redeemer will come and fix all are problems.

Trailblazer · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
True in "substance"? What substance? People died because of the supposed laws of God. People died because people said that God told them to kill those people. Christians let themselves be killed and wouldn't recant their faith that Jesus was God. Christians killed people that denied Jesus was God.

But it's all over now and that is history, so why re we still talking about it?

The substance is the spiritual teachings in the Bible. You can find them if you look, if you stop harping in the fictitious stories. Here is one example:

http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
You can think whatever you want to, but Jesus never said He was going to return, that is simply a Christian hope.
That is precisely why all the prophecies have been fulfilled and still no Jesus has appeared.

And when you have read Revelation for yourself and come to that same conclusion I'll care much more about what you think. Have you?

Kalki from Hinduism and Maitreya from Buddhism too? Or, are we talking just Bible prophecies? An earthquake thousands of miles from Persia and several decades prior to the coming of The Bab doesn't count. And, The Bab isn't The Christ, The Messiah. He is the forerunner... the Elijah. Actually, I guess if that earthquake works for The Bab, then I suppose it happened close enough in place and time to count for Baha'u'llah too. So never mind. Yes, all the prophecies are fulfilled, like the ones that say Christ returns and we have two world wars, disease and famine etc. and yet, no peace. Oh, which prophecy says that again?

Trailblazer · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
But then, the Bible wouldn't be "The Word of God"? Should we demote it to "The Word of Some Guys About What They Thought God Said"? But isn't that what it really is? Some guys wrote it. How did they know the stories? Do we really trust that they didn't add things in?

No, I think we should put the Bible on the shelf. Do you really think that Baha'is who do not go on forums spend their time reading or talking about the Bible? No, they are busy building the new world order.

In the following passage the Word of God which comes with every new Messenger of God is likened to a City that is renewed every thousand years or so:

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
But it's all over now and that is history, so why re we still talking about it?

The substance is the spiritual teachings in the Bible. You can find them if you look, if you stop harping in the fictitious stories. Here is one example:

Yeah, let's stop talking about how religions have behaved in the past. Why should that matter?

Wow, what substance. What else. The Bible is a pretty big book. Maybe let's ask the Christians too? I wonder what they will find as substantive in the Bible? Hmmm? Probably the whole thing... including that without Jesus, a person will die in their sins and be cast into hell. Or is that part of the fictional stuff I keep harping on?

InvestigateTruth · Nov 25, 2020

Skywalker said:
Jesus saying that didn't take away from His divinity.

Right. So, Jesus was a Prophet as well as Manifestation of God.

Brickjectivity · Nov 25, 2020

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see both the Bible and Baha'i Writings, without mens input, would be in complete harmony, reflecting an ever advancing concept of Faith.

The only conflict is men trying to hold on to a superior position in their Faith, and not wanting to see that all Humanity has had God guide them.

Regards Tony

I view the biblical canon as primarily Jewish and then expounded upon for gentiles but not directly in the canon. What we have in the canon is directed to people already converted or already Catholic, and its in such archaic and weird language that people can't always figure it out. For example if somebody reads Isaiah or Jeremiah they will likely ask someone else what it means. That's not textbook style writing.

Trailblazer · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
And when you have read Revelation for yourself and come to that same conclusion I'll care much more about what you think. Have you?

As if that is going to be the deciding factor as to whether the same man Jesus is going to return someday?
I already came to my conclusions....
I already know that Jesus is not going to return, and I know that with absolute certainty.
I know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah, so why would I waste my time reading the Book of Revelation?

Trailblazer · Nov 25, 2020

CG Didymus said:
So never mind. Yes, all the prophecies are fulfilled, like the ones that say Christ returns and we have two world wars, disease and famine etc. and yet, no peace. Oh, which prophecy says that again?

Let me know which one it is and I will demonstrate how it has been fulfilled.

Nakosis · Nov 25, 2020

Skywalker said:
Quoted from carm.org. What type of God would kill the firstborn of Egypt? | CARM.org

Ok, didn't really see an offer of mercy here though.

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
No, I think we should put the Bible on the shelf. Do you really think that Baha'is who do not go on forums spend their time reading or talking about the Bible? No, they are busy building the new world order.

In the following passage the Word of God which comes with every new Messenger of God is likened to a City that is renewed every thousand years or so:

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

I knew a lot of Baha'is and not many were building much of anything. There were the inactive Baha'is. Then the ones that come to the 19 day feasts and that's it. Then some go to firesides. Usually the Baha'i holding the firesides were very outgoing, charismatic people. They did most of the speaking. What did the other Baha'is do? Socialize. At the mass teaching trips. Baha'i went door to door inviting people to a meeting about the Baha'i Faith. A large group would be about ten people. Maybe one or two would sign a declaration card, then most would become inactive.

But you keep talking about the Bible? You must read parts of it at least? Why? Is it because you need to know enough to answer the questions that Christians have? So you keep trying to answer questions Christians have. You keep learning more about what they believe and what is the Baha'is response to their questions. And that is not something that at least some Baha'is should be doing?

Nakosis · Nov 25, 2020

Skywalker said:
It wasn't done to clear up space for the Israelites. How it works is irrelevant. It was done as an act of judgement.

Just pointing out why some might consider God a terrorist as mentioned in a prior post. I'm not judging the justification of the act, just that it was what it was.
If there is a God, one would assume God's actions beyond human justification.

Although I have come across reports of folks turning away from God because of these very actions.

CG Didymus · Nov 25, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Let me know which one it is and I will demonstrate how it has been fulfilled.

That one. Which one says the Christ will return and die and two world wars will happen after he is gone. I can just see it now... "In that day, the Lord will come down from heaven with a loud thud. He will die and leave the world in chaos, because, all but a few, recognized him. The world will fight two great wars. Years later there will still be no peace. But not to worry, his people are slowly, very slowly, building his Kingdom on Earth." Yes, that's the prophecy that would best fit the coming and going of Baha'u'llah. Is it in there in the Bible? Anything close will be acceptable.

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