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Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
All after the destruction of the Temple, and ah . . . not all these are considered written by Paul.

You need to show evidence for that. The Acts, written by Luke, and Peter's letter,
along with Paul, were testament to the early church of the first half of the First
Century.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yeah. Like how does a vegetarian that is against animal cruelty feel about skinning a potato while it is still alive?

We are all egocentric. Even a so called wise man who tries to always gain more points of view in an attempt to get a better overview to draw from.

We can only make a decision based on our own limited understanding at that moment.

Bold OK, but you are making claims far beyond this expression of humility.

No we are not all egocentric to the extent you are claiming. For example: I make no such claims as you, and realize that my claim of 'belief' is as limited from the fallible human perspective as anyone else. For this reason I call myself a philosophical agnostic.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You need to show evidence for that. The Acts, written by Luke, and Peter's letter,
along with Paul, were testament to the early church of the first half of the First
Century.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. At present there is absolutely no evidence that they were written before 50 AD. My only claim is there is no evidence.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You need to show evidence for that. The Acts, written by Luke, and Peter's letter,
along with Paul, were testament to the early church of the first half of the First
Century.

The burden is on the on making the claim, and there is no evidence to support your claim.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
We have an idea when Jesus was born and died due to the practice, still in use until WWI
of calling times by their monarchs.
In AD70 the Temple was destroyed. This event was unknown to the writers of the Gospels,
clearly, but some date the Gospels to after this time because Jesus spoke of the destruction
of this temple. Of course, 'how could he have known.'
Well writers in the Old Testament also 'knew' of the destruction of the Temple - and both
Daniel and Jacob connected this destruction with the Messiah.

Thats a awful weak response.

Ignoring most of my post, too.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Thats a awful weak response.

Ignoring most of my post, too.


Quote
An, that makes all the difference!
Word for word from memory after 20 years.
By whose standard is 70 years nuts? Its the first
number you will find on ye googlenet.
Of course nobody even knows where or when "Jesus" actually died, or how long after that these feats of memory occurred.

Sorry, is this the post I 'ignored' ??
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
There is no authorised explanation that I have found on Daniel 7:10

"A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated,a nd the books were opened"

I can offer what I see from what I understand.

I see this passage is refeing to the Bab. The river of fire to me is saying that all Truth is being released, the word of God can be likened as fire.

Jeremiah 23:29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

Jeremiah 5:14Therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts (this is reference to Baha'u'llah) , “Because you have spoken this word, Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire And this people wood, and it will consume them.

The Message of the Bab cause immediate turmoil and many tens of thousands embraced the Message given by the Bab, I see this is reference to all those that embrace a Messenger in the Days they walk this earth. The Thousands that attended him would be the Martyrs that gave their lives for the cause, over 20 thousand were slaughtered in a space of a few short years.

The court seated may be reference to the trial of the Bab, which is a great story in its own right as the Bab walked in and took the seat of honour.

The seals were opened was the Message of the Bab, the Book of Revelation also confirms that the seals are opened at the end of the age. Baha'u'llah has confirmed that up to the Bab only 2 letters of 27 letters of knowledge had been released in all previous messages given and that the Bab released the remaining 25 letters.

It confirms what Christ offered that he had much more to say to us, but it was when the Spirit of Truth came that we would be guided unto all Truth.

The progress of man in science also indicates something extraordinary happened in the 1800's that changed the potential of Humanity as a whole.

Of course this is a needle in the haystack explanation, as there is now much material offered we can use to consider other explanations.



This link in Chapter 3 is an attempt to explain those verses. I personally have not yet done so.

I, Daniel

It goes into detail on each verse.



We use the few authorised explanation given by Baha'u'llah and then by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi, who were authorised under the Covernant to interpret what Baha'u'llah offerd.

Other than that we are free to give it a go ourselves, but I hesitate to do so. When I read how it has been interpreted by those mentioned above, it only humbles my ability to understand. I realise there has to be a lot less of a worldly self to see what the spirit is saying within the given Word.

Many Baha'i have attempted to interpret the Bible scriptures and they are available. I see they are of interest, but in the end I see it is up to each of us to get from the Bible what we need to find God and what is needed in our age.

Regards Tony
Thanks.
So in a nutshell, you interpret based on external sources - Bahaullah's interpretation, primarily. That is correct?
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Taking a scriptural approach to the Bahai theology which a new theology to me I have come to understand that the Bahai's believe in certain things which I would like to clarify and get some insights from everyone who could participate. This concerns Christians, Jews, Bahai's and anyone who follows these scripture.

Claim 1: Son of man referred in the third person is referring to Bahaullah, not Jesus. For example, the second coming of Jesus Christians believe prophecies and spoken of in the book of revelations where both Son of Man and Word of God are referred to (Revelations 19:11 onwards).

It was said that since in other places of the New Testament like the prophecy of the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds, since it is said in the third person and Jesus speaks there, it cannot refer to himself. If Jesus referred to himself, he would say "would be coming", not "the son of man will come" in the third party tense.

Now if one examines the New Testament, the son of man is predominantly referred to in the third party. The Son of Man is drinking, and eating, a glutton, and a frind of the tax collectors, the Son of Man is the lord of the Sabbath, etc etc. Predominantly in the third party tense.

Also, it is in the present tense. Thus I would like a clarification of this.

Claim 2: Tanakh prophecies about Jesus are referred to Bahaullah. Is it possible to clearly state the prophecies from the Tanakh and why they refer to Bahaullah?

Thank you.

I am late to the thread, haven't had much time to be online as of late. But I would like to add what the Bible states on the matter.

Firstly this is entirely from the Bible. I have always professed to believe it is the word of God, as do all of Jehovah's Witnesses.

When looking at other inspired scriptures what do we have to go on? Well there a a few key scriptures that tell us. Firstly is 2 Timothy 3:16:

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

All the scriptures found in the Bible are inspired of God. With them the man of God is fully competent and completely equipped. We have everything we need in the Bible.

What does holy scripture then say about writings that would come after the Bible, that would contradict the holy teachings in the Bible, or go beyond what the Bible teaches concerning Jesus Christ and God's kingdom?

"However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:8.

Anyone that comes afterward, be a person or an angel from heaven to add to or change what has been revealed to be the good news has a curse put upon them.

Notice that the Bible reveals that in later periods, that is after the Holy Scriptures inspired by God, inspired teachings of demons would appear to mislead the people:

(1 Timothy 4:1) However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons.

It is quite easy to discern truth from falsehood by basing your understanding on what the Bible teaches.

All so-called "holy scripture" that has come after the Bible and distorts, adds to, or changes its message is falsehood. Inspired teachings of demons to mislead the people.

All scripture that denies the Christ is part of the antichrist:

(1 John 2:22-25) Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father. 25 Furthermore, this is what he himself promised us—the life everlasting.

If there are other inspired scriptures that teach that Jesus is not the "son of man" and that he will not reign in heaven as king of God's kingdom government, these scriptures are falsehoods, inspired teachings of demons. And there is no need to pay attention to them.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I am late to the thread, haven't had much time to be online as of late. But I would like to add what the Bible states on the matter.

Firstly this is entirely from the Bible. I have always professed to believe it is the word of God, as do all of Jehovah's Witnesses.

When looking at other inspired scriptures what do we have to go on? Well there a a few key scriptures that tell us. Firstly is 2 Timothy 3:16:

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

All the scriptures found in the Bible are inspired of God. With them the man of God is fully competent and completely equipped. We have everything we need in the Bible.

What does holy scripture then say about writings that would come after the Bible, that would contradict the holy teachings in the Bible, or go beyond what the Bible teaches concerning Jesus Christ and God's kingdom?

"However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:8.

Anyone that comes afterward, be a person or an angel from heaven to add to or change what has been revealed to be the good news has a curse put upon them.

Notice that the Bible reveals that in later periods, that is after the Holy Scriptures inspired by God, inspired teachings of demons would appear to mislead the people:

(1 Timothy 4:1) However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons.

It is quite easy to discern truth from falsehood by basing your understanding on what the Bible teaches.

All so-called "holy scripture" that has come after the Bible and distorts, adds to, or changes its message is falsehood. Inspired teachings of demons to mislead the people.

All scripture that denies the Christ is part of the antichrist:

(1 John 2:22-25) Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father. 25 Furthermore, this is what he himself promised us—the life everlasting.

If there are other inspired scriptures that teach that Jesus is not the "son of man" and that he will not reign in heaven as king of God's kingdom government, these scriptures are falsehoods, inspired teachings of demons. And there is no need to pay attention to them.
" these scriptures are falsehoods, inspired teachings of demons."

What is one's basis/method/criteria of ascertaining truthfulness of the scriptures and not from the demons and falsehoods of them, please?
Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I believe that the Bible is true, because the New Testament was written within two generations after Jesus died, and within that amount of time, eyewitnesses are still around to correct the errors of historical revisionists.
Well, Gospel writers, none of them was an eyewitness of the event of Crucifixion, please? Right, please?

Regards
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Bold OK, but you are making claims far beyond this expression of humility.

No we are not all egocentric to the extent you are claiming. For example: I make no such claims as you, and realize that my claim of 'belief' is as limited from the fallible human perspective as anyone else. For this reason I call myself a philosophical agnostic.


You can think with the language you have learned. The more words you can learn and their meanings the more you can use them as your thoughts.

So we can use words to communicate thoughts to each other. Does that mean we will understand each other?

Like what if I claim that you will never be happy unless you become gay. Because only gay people can be happy.
Do you think I am right, or do you think I wrong?
Am I both?

Your perception of what others do and what they say is your interpretation.
You can't put yourself in their shoes. But you might think you can.

Not everyone thinks the same as you.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Think about it.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You can think with the language you have learned. The more words you can learn and their meanings the more you can use them as your thoughts.

So we can use words to communicate thoughts to each other. Does that mean we will understand each other?

Like what if I claim that you will never be happy unless you become gay. Because only gay people can be happy.
Do you think I am right, or do you think I wrong?
Am I both?

Your perception of what others do and what they say is your interpretation.
You can't put yourself in their shoes. But you might think you can.

Not everyone thinks the same as you.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Think about it.

I do "think about it," but you missed the 'point' everyone has.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
" these scriptures are falsehoods, inspired teachings of demons."

What is one's basis/method/criteria of ascertaining truthfulness of the scriptures and not from the demons and falsehoods of them, please?
Right, please?

Regards

It was already shown in Galatians 1:8. That they do not go beyond the good news taught in the Bible. Everything in the Bible is canon, in agreement, and inspired. Anything not added into the holy canon of the Bible is not canon, not in agreement, not inspired of God.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Well, Gospel writers, none of them was an eyewitness of the event of Crucifixion, please? Right, please?

Regards

John wrote this in regards to himself:

(John 19:26, 27) . . .So when Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother: “Woman, see! Your son!” 27 Next he said to the disciple: “See! Your mother!” And from that hour on, the disciple took her into his own home.


This was while Jesus was on the torture stake and right before he died. So yes, an eyewitness of both his death and his resurrection wrote one of the gospels.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It was already shown in Galatians 1:8. That they do not go beyond the good news taught in the Bible. Everything in the Bible is canon, in agreement, and inspired. Anything not added into the holy canon of the Bible is not canon, not in agreement, not inspired of God.

That could mean doctrine has added to the meaning by Christians and not other scriptures that are from God.

I see the Quran, which is from God, corrects the mistakes made in doctrines. Unfortunately, then Islam made their doctrines about what Muhammad said about the Bible and confused the entire issue even more.

Regards Tony
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That could mean doctrine has added to the meaning by Christians and not other scriptures that are from God.

I see the Quran, which is from God, corrects the mistakes made in doctrines. Unfortunately, then Islam made their doctrines about what Muhammad said about the Bible and confused the entire issue even more.

Regards Tony

I believe the Bible because it matches the character of who God is. God is love. The Christian God loves His creation so much that He died for their sins. The gospels have historical proof. Heaven vs Jannah: Assessing the Dilemma

Heaven vs Jannah: Assessing the Dilemma
Keith Thompson

Both the Christian and the Muslim were promised an afterlife as a reward for accomplishing their objectives as a human being. A paradise, described by Jesus, and within the other Biblical records; as well as a paradise described by Muhammad in the Quran and Hadith literature. However, there are major and fundamental differences between the two conceptions of paradise. Jannah, the Islamic paradise, is nothing like the established Biblical Heaven that was promised. This is very significant because if one can prove that the there are promises unique to the Quran, as well as demonstrate that Muhammad believed that the Bible was the word of God in the 7th century, we can conclude that because the two concepts of paradise are polar opposite, and that the Bible of the 7th century is true, according to Muhammad, then Islam is false and Allah is not the God of the Bible. We prove that the Christian conception of Heaven is the original and the Islamic conception of Jannah is a later distortion. Indeed if Allah was the same God of the Gospels (Injil), we would expect the same details regarding the established Heaven. The Gospels and Quran/Hadith should have similar promises of an afterlife if Allah was responsible for both revelations. However, this is not the case.

Let us first examine some of the major differences, and then we will prove that Muhammad granted the Bible of today as genuine. Thus proving the Biblical Heaven is the original established Heaven and that the Islamic conception of Jannah must be abandoned as a later type of imposing forgery. According to the 1st century record as well as the ancient prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was to have profound glory and authority in the after life. In Mark 14 Jesus confirms that Daniel 7:13-14 is a prophecy about him. By confirming this he is also acknowledging that his rule in Heaven is eternal.

"Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" Mark 14:60-63

The prophecy Jesus was attributing to himself is the following:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." Daniel 7:13-14

So according to both the ancient Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament as well as the ancient 1st century New Testament documents, Jesus Christ occupies God's thrown, as the right hand, and is given an everlasting kingdom with everlasting dominion and worship. The Islamic documents, however, did not affirm that Jesus Christ is a co-occupant of God's throne. Nor did they affirm that Jesus Christ will have this kind of rule and dominion of Heaven, while receiving worship. Instead Allah is the eternal occupant of the throne. Christ (Isa) will return, defeat the dajjal, teach Islam, get married, have children, live for about 40-45 years then die and get buried near Mohammad's grave in al-Madinah; as opposed to the Biblical account.

"... Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance..." (Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6924)

"He (Jesus) will live for forty years during which he will marry, have children, and perform Hajj (pilgrimage)." (Wali ad-Din, Miskat Al-Masabih, (tr. James Robson), Vol.II, p.1159; Sahih Muslim, Vol.1, p.92).

"Jesus (pbuh) will descend and will practice our Prophet's (may God bless him and grant him peace) law." (Imam Rabbani, Letters of Rabbani, vol. 2, p. 1309)

"Jesus will marry and have a child after he returns. After he dies, the Muslims will perform his funeral prayer and bury him at the Rauza-i-Aqdas." (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar, 65)

"Jesus will die after living for 40 years. After he dies, the Muslims will perform his funeral prayer and bury him." (Mukhtasar Tazkirah Qurtubi, 498-499)

"After his dissension on earth, Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will marry. He will have children, and he will remain on earth 19 years after marriage. He will pass away and Muslims will perform his Janaza Salaat and bury him next to Rasulullah." (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam). (Tirmidhi)

As you can see there is no room for harmonization between the two accounts of what will happen. What does this mean? It means someone is in serious error and one of the revelations is false. One of the religions is false and not from God. Another major difference with respect to Heaven and Jannah is that the 1st century New Testament documents say there will be no marriage and sexual activity in paradise. Jesus answers the Sadducee's on the topic of marriage in heaven. Mark 12:23-25 states:

"At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?" Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

It is clear that Jesus Christ in the 1st century record repudiated the idea that there would be marriage in God's Holy Kingdom. However, in the Islamic documents, namely Quran, and Hadith, Men will have wives and sex partners. The description of the Islamic Janneh is extremely graphic as opposed to the established Heaven that Jesus taught.

"Enter the Garden, ye and your wives, to be made glad." S. 43:70 Pickthall

"They and their wives, in pleasant shade, on thrones reclining;" S. 36:56 Pickthall

"...they shall have Azwâjun Mutahharatun [purified mates or wives] and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening." S. 4:57 Dr. Mohsin

"And near them [shall lie the virgins of paradise], refraining their looks ... having large black eyes," S. 37:48 Sale

"Wherein both will be those (maidens) restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn yatmithhunna (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny? (In beauty) they are like rubies and coral." S. 55:56-58 Hilali-Khan

With respect to 55:55,69-71, Ibn Kathir, in his commentary (Tafsir), states,

"Verily, the first group that will enter Paradise will look like the moon when it is full, and the next batch will be as radiant as the radiant star in the sky. Each one of them will marry two wives. The marrow of the bones of their shins will be seen through the flesh. None will be unmarried in Paradise.) This Hadith was recorded in the Two Sahihs ... "Verily, in Paradise, the believer will have a tent from a hollow pearl, the width thereof is sixty miles. In each corner of it there are wives for the believer that do not see the other wives, and the believer will visit them all.) In another narration the Prophet said that this tent is thirty miles wide. Muslim recorded this Hadith and in his narration, the Prophet said," (Source)

At-Tirmizi, vol. 2, states on page 138:

The Prophet Muhammad said "Every man who enters paradise shall be given 72 (seventy-two) houris; no matter at what age he had died, when he is admitted into paradise, he will become a thirty-year-old, and shall not age any further. A man in paradise shall be given virility equal to that of one hundred men".

"gardens and vineyards; and girls with swelling breasts of the same age as themselves, and a brimming cup;" S. 78:32-34 Palmer

And al-Bukhari reports:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their >s. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544)

In fact Osama Abdullah, the Muslim "apologist," even admitted that the Muslim will receive around 70 virgins, as sex objects. He stated:

"Note: The exact number of 70 Houris is not mentioned in the Noble Quran. It is only mentioned in the Hadith's (collections of the Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him). But Houris were mentioned in the Noble Quran. So the number is most likely true, even though the Hadiths were collected centuries after the natural death of the Prophet. In other words, the possibility of the Hadith being corrupt... is slim because the Noble Quran supports the narration by mentioning the Houris as shown at the end of the article." (Source)

There are many more sources and much more graphic material within the Islamic sources regarding Jannah. However I think we have seen enough for now. What a degrading view for the women. Being a sex object for a man along side 70 other women. Sex slaves indeed! Interestingly the Bible says nothing of the sort. Instead we read that there will be no marriage. Thus no sex. We also read that Heaven is not fully conceivable in its greatness.

"However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I believe the Bible because it matches the character of who God is. God is love. The Christian God loves His creation so much that He died for their sins. The gospels have historical proof. Heaven vs Jannah: Assessing the Dilemma
Jesus said He came to make them blind as well as curing the blind to see.
In my view, the God of Age who made them blind was Jesus, not Satan, as generally interpreted by mainstream Christians.
In the same way that God guides the righteous, He can also mislead and blind the wicked.
In Bahai view, Bahaullah is the God of this Age, and Jesus was the God of His own Age. But both of them are Manifestation of the same, and only True God.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe the Bible because it matches the character of who God is. God is love. The Christian God loves His creation so much that He died for their sins. The gospels have historical proof. Heaven vs Jannah: Assessing the Dilemma

I also beleive God is Love and Love requires us to also know what is hate.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God created us at the edge of darkness and the beginning of light. We are flesh which is the sum of all darkness, light is the potential within us.

To bring that light out we must be born again, born Into the Spirit that was Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I believe the Bible because it matches the character of who God is. God is love. The Christian God loves His creation so much that He died for their sins. The gospels have historical proof. Heaven vs Jannah: Assessing the Dilemma

Thus, you wish to make this a Christianity vs Islam debate? And for that purpose, your source is "answering-islam.com"?

Please do go ahead and start a new thread for that. See this thread is a completely different topic.
 
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