Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

adrian009 said:

The Kitab-i-Iqan makes reference to the Gospels, particularly a few verses in the Olivet discourse.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:29-31

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

In this work Bahá’u’lláh makes no specific references to verses in the Tanakh. If you check the references at the bottom of the text you will appreciate the overwhelming scriptural references are to the Quran. The work is unusual for its time in that it does reference the Gospels and what it has to say about them.

The next key document for any student of the Baha’i writings wanting to learn about what is said in regards biblical prophecy is ‘Some Answered Questions’ which is a transcript of a series of table talks given to Western Baha’is in Akka by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during the early twentieth century. It is divided into five sections, the second being devoted to Christian topics.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

@InvestigateTruth has referenced key passages in Shoghi Effendi’s ‘God passes by’ above.

Shoghi Effendi emphasised the importance of the Kitab-I-Iqan and Some Answered Questions for anyone serious about becoming acquainted with the Baha’i Faith.

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firedragon said:

Okay I shall do that. I was just being lazy. I have been having both these books ever since I opened one thread long long ago about understanding the Bahai faith but have not yet go to reading them properly.

But the best is to read them. You are right.

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Skywalker said:

Do baha'i people believe in the Bible or the Tanakh?

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see in the end, that is the only way. There is no better person than ones own self when it comes to asking God, as to what God has chosen for us to see.

Regards Tony

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

All the Bible is a sure guide to all humanity.

Regards Tony

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Skywalker said:

Do baha'i people believe in the Bible or the Tanakh?

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adrian009 said:

Of course. The Baha’i writings are to Baha’is what the New Testament is to Christians. Believing in the New Testament doesn’t negate a belief in the Tanakh. It brings fulfilment, new insights and the opportunity to break with laws that were no longer relevant.

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Skywalker said:

Do you disagree with Christian people celebrating Passover?

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adrian009 said:

No

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nPeace said:

1) Whom does Bahais say are the thousand thousands that kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand that stood before him - verse 10.

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nPeace said:

2) Do Bahais also interpret the four beast - verses 1-8 - to mean something related to the period of the Bab?

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nPeace said:

3) How do Bahais go about interpreting scripture... Do they use Bahaullah's writings to do so, or do they use the same Bible that makes the statements? If the latter, which scripture would you use to make an application regarding verse 10?

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firedragon said:

I have only so far read two of your scripture from cover to cover. Thats probably because they were not very vast on their own. So that makes me an absolute layman. So let me read up.

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firedragon said:

Taking a scriptural approach to the Bahai theology which a new theology to me I have come to understand that the Bahai's believe in certain things which I would like to clarify and get some insights from everyone who could participate. This concerns Christians, Jews, Bahai's and anyone who follows these scripture.

Claim 1: Son of man referred in the third person is referring to Bahaullah, not Jesus. For example, the second coming of Jesus Christians believe prophecies and spoken of in the book of revelations where both Son of Man and Word of God are referred to (Revelations 19:11 onwards).

It was said that since in other places of the New Testament like the prophecy of the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds, since it is said in the third person and Jesus speaks there, it cannot refer to himself. If Jesus referred to himself, he would say "would be coming", not "the son of man will come" in the third party tense.

Now if one examines the New Testament, the son of man is predominantly referred to in the third party. The Son of Man is drinking, and eating, a glutton, and a frind of the tax collectors, the Son of Man is the lord of the Sabbath, etc etc. Predominantly in the third party tense.

Also, it is in the present tense. Thus I would like a clarification of this.

Claim 2: Tanakh prophecies about Jesus are referred to Bahaullah. Is it possible to clearly state the prophecies from the Tanakh and why they refer to Bahaullah?

Thank you.

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Skywalker said:

I believe that the Bible is true, because the New Testament was written within two generations after Jesus died, and within that amount of time, eyewitnesses are still around to correct the errors of historical revisionists.

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PruePhillip said:

Let's see. Jesus as Redeemer is found throughout the Old Testament. Job said He is alive and one day would
stand upon the earth. Jacob said His coming would end the law, monarchy and nation of Israel. Daniel said He
would be 'cut off' for His people. Isaiah said he would be the lowly man of sorrows. David spoke of Him upon the
cross, offered gall to drink and His garments parted. I think it was Malachi who said a messenger from God would
go before him (John the Baptist) and amazingly Zechariah spoke of the Jews mourning when they see their king
coming to save Israel, but they see it's the lowly man they crucified.

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Of course this is a needle in the haystack explanation, as there is now much material offered we can use to consider other explanations.

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WonderingWorrier said:

Perhaps it's like trying to find the piece of hay in a stack of needles.
There are many points to consider.

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shunyadragon said:

Simple answer is no ask the Jews about their own scriptures in Hebrew.

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RESPONDING TO OBJECTIONS

Lapides finished his story and relaxed in his chair. I let the moment linger. The sanctuary was peaceful; the stained glass was glowing red and yellow and blue from the California sun. I sat musing over the power of one person’s story of a faith found. I marveled at this saga of war and drugs, of Greenwich Village and Sunset Strip and a barren desert, none of which I ever would have associated with the pleasant, well-adjusted minister sitting in front of me.

But I didn’t want to ignore the obvious questions that his story raised. With Lapides’ permission I started by asking the one that was foremost on my mind: “if the prophecies were so obvious to you and pointed so unquestionably toward Jesus, why don’t more Jews accept him as their Messiah?”

It was a question Lapides has asked himself a lot during the three decades since he was challenged by a Christian to investigate the Jewish Scriptures. “In my case, I took the time to read them,” he replied. “Oddly enough even though the Jewish people are known for having high intellects, in this area there’s a lot of ignorance.

“Plus you have counter missionary organizations that hold seminars in synagogues to try to disprove the messianic prophecies. Jewish people hear them and use them as an excuse for not exploring the prophecies personally. They’ll say, ‘The rabbi told me there’s nothing to this.’

“I’ll ask them, ‘Do you think the rabbi just brought up an objection that Christianity has never heard before? I mean, scholars have been working on this for hundreds of years! There’s great literature out there and powerful Christian answers to those challenges.’ if they’re interested, I help them go further.”

I wondered about the ostracism a Jewish person faces if he or she becomes a Christian. “That’s definitely a factor,” he said. “Some people won’t let the messianic prophecies grab them, because they’re afraid of the repercussions—–potential rejection by their family and the Jewish community. That’s not easy to face. Believe me, I know.”

Even so, some of the challenges to the prophecies sound pretty convincing when a person first hears them. So one by one I posed the most common objections to Lapides to see how he would respond.

1. The Coincidence Argument

First, I asked Lapides whether it’s possible that Jesus merely fulfilled the prophecies by accident. Maybe he’s just one of many throughout history who have coincidentally fit the prophetic fingerprint.

“Not a chance,” came his response. “The odds are so astronomical that they rule that out. Someone did the math and figured out that the probability of just eight prophecies being fulfilled is one chance in one hundred million billion. That number is millions of times greater than the total number of people who’ve ever walked the planet!

“He calculated that if you took this number of silver dollars, they would cover the state of Texas to a depth of two feet. If you marked one silver dollar among them and then had a blindfolded person wander the whole state and bend down to pick up one coin, what would be the odds he’d choose the one that had been marked?”

With that he answered his own question “The same odds that anybody in history could have fulfilled just eight of the prophecies.”

I had studied this same statistical analysis by mathematician Peter W. Stoner when I was investigating the messianic prophecies for myself. Stoner also computed that the probability of fulfilling forty-eight prophecies was one chance in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion!’2

Our minds can’t comprehend a number that big. This is a staggering statistic that’s equal to the number of minuscule atoms in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, billion universes the size of our universe!

“The odds alone say it would be impossible for anyone to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies,” Lapides concluded. “Yet Jesus—–and only Jesus throughout all of history—managed to do it.”

The words of the apostle Peter popped into my head: “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled” (Acts 3:18 NASB).

2. The Altered Gospel Argument

I painted another scenario for Lapides, asking, “Isn’t it possible that the gospel writers fabricated details to make it appear that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?

“For example,” I said, “the prophecies say the Messiah’s bones would remain unbroken, so maybe John invented the story about the Romans breaking the legs of the two thieves being crucified with Jesus, and not breaking his legs. And the prophecies talk about betrayal for thirty pieces of silver, so maybe Matthew played fast and loose with the facts and said, yeah, Judas sold out Jesus for that same amount.”

But that objection didn’t fly any further than the previous one. “In God’s wisdom, he created checks and balances both inside and outside the Christian community,” Lapides explained. “When the gospels were being circulated, there were people living who had been around when all these things happened. Someone would have said to Matthew, ‘You know it didn’t happen that way. We’re trying to communicate a life of righteousness and truth, so don’t taint it with a lie.”

Besides, he added, why would Matthew have fabricated fulfilled prophecies and then willingly allowed himself to be put to death for following someone who he secretly knew was really not the Messiah? That wouldn’t make any sense.

What’s more, the Jewish community would have jumped on any opportunity to discredit the gospels by pointing out falsehoods. “They would have said, ‘I was there, and Jesus’ bones were broken by the Romans during the Crucifixion,” Lapides said. “But even though the Jewish Talmud refers to Jesus in derogatory ways, it never once makes the claim that the fulfillment of prophecies was falsified. Not one time.”

3. The Intentional Fulfillment Argument

Some skeptics have asserted that Jesus merely maneuvered his life in a way to fulfill the prophecies. “Couldn’t he have read in Zechariah that the Messiah would ride a donkey into Jerusalem, and then arrange to do exactly that?” I asked.

Lapides made a small concession. “For a few of the prophecies, yes, that’s certainly conceivable,” he salt “But there are many others for which this just wouldn’t have been possible.

“For instance, how would he control the fact that the Sanhedrin offered Judas thirty pieces of silver to betray him? How could he arrange for his ancestry, or the places of his birth, or his method of execution, or that soldiers gambled for his clothing, or that his legs remained unbroken on the cross? How would he arrange to perform miracles in front of skeptics? How would he arrange for his resurrection? And how would he arrange to be born when he was?”

That last comment piqued my curiosity. “What do you mean by when he was born?” I asked.

“When you interpret Daniel 9:24—26, it foretells that the Messiah would appear a certain length of time after King Artaxerxes I issued a decree for the Jewish people to go from Persia to rebuild the walls in Jerusalem,” Lapides replied.

He leaned forward to deliver the clincher “That puts the anticipated appearance of the Messiah at the exact moment in history when Jesus showed up,” he said. “Certainly that’s nothing he could have prearranged.”

4. The Context Argument

One other objection needed to be addressed: were the passages that Christians identity as messianic prophecies really intended to point to the coming of the Anointed One, or do Christians rip them out of context and misinterpret them?

Lapides sighed. “You know, I go through the books that people write to try to tear down what we believe. That’s not fun to do, but I spend the time to look at each objection individually and then to research the context and the wording in the original language,” he said. “And every single time, the prophecies have stood up and shown themselves to be true.

“So here’s my challenge to skeptics: don’t accept my word for it, but don’t accept your rabbi’s either. Spend the time to research it yourself. Today nobody can say, ‘There’s no information.’ There are plenty of books out there to help you.

“And one more thing: sincerely ask God to show you whether or not Jesus is the Messiah. That’s what I did—and without any coaching it became clear to me who fit the fingerprint of the Messiah.”

“EVERYTHING MUST BE FULFILLED…”

I appreciated the way Lapides had responded to the objections, but ultimately it was the story of his spiritual journey that kept replaying in my mind as I flew back to Chicago late that night. I reflected on how many times I had encountered similar stories, especially among successful and thoughtful Jewish people who had specifically set out to refute Jesus’ messianic claims.

I thought about Stan Telchin, the East Coast business man who had embarked on a quest to expose the “cult” of Christianity after his daughter went away to college and received Y’shua (Jesus) as her Messiah. He was astonished to find that his investigation led him—and his wife and second daughte—to the same Messiah. He later became a Christian minister, and his book that recounts his story, Betrayed!, has been translated into more than twenty languages.4

There was Jack Sternberg, a prominent cancer physician in Little Rock, Arkansas, who was so alarmed at what he found in the Old Testament that he challenged three rabbis to disprove that Jesus was the Messiah. They couldn’t, and he too has claimed to have found wholeness in Christ.5

And there was Peter Greenspan, an obstetrician-gynecologist who practices in the Kansas City area and is a clinical assistant professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine. Like Lapidés, he had been challenged to look for Jesus in Judaism. What he found troubled him, so he went to the Torah and Talmud, seeking to discredit Jesus’ messianic credentials. Instead he concluded that Jesus did miraculously fulfill the prophecies.

For him, the more he read books by those trying to undermine the evidence for Jesus as the Messiah, the more he saw the flaws in their arguments. Ironically, concluded Greenspan, “I think I actually came to faith in Y’shua by reading what detractors wrote.”6

He found, as have Lapides and others, that Jesus’ words in the gospel of Luke have proved true: “Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44). It was fulfilled, and only in Jesus—the sole individual in history who has matched the prophetic fingerprint of God’s anointed one. (232-251)

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Your screename and what you just offerd made me smile, as I had just posted this quote to another in this OP.

Jeremiah 5:14Therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, “Because you have spoken this word, Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire And this people wood, and it will consume them.

To me, In that passage, Baha'u'llah is the Lord of Hosts.

Regards Tony

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Why does God give Jesus a new name and take away his old name? Why not accept another new name, Bahaullah? How did Jesus fulfill the prophecy that all mankind will see God's salvation?

Question:

One of my questions was WHY had not God in the Old Testament chosen for himself, the name Jesus the Christ, but many other names ? In addition, Christ Himself also promises that when he returns, he won’t have the same name, but bear a New Name. (Revelation 3:12). So why be surprised about hearing a new name (Baha’u’llah) when God Himself has had many names and promises He will still continue to have a new name? Why do people fear? why panic? what is wrong with this excessive fear which has caused a very serious sort of spiritual paralysis?

The other question was on Luke 3:4-6 it says: As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth. And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’ ” My question on this was how did each segment of this prophecy come to pass 2000 years ago? That is 1) how did the paths get straight? 2) how did every valley get filled? 3) how were every mountain and valley brought low? 4) how did the crooked ways become straight? 5) how did the rough ways become smooth? And 6) Most importantly how did ALL Mankind SEE God’s salvation? If you say these are symbolic, can you provide evidence from the Old Testament that what was being said was symbolic and not literal?

Thank you,

Answer;

It is true that God takes on many names in scripture. It is also true that Jesus says that he will have a “new name.” Your friend does not interpret this passage correctly. It does NOT say that he will not have the same name. The names of God and of his Son represent his/their different qualities. Jesus will still be called Messiah, Son of God, The Good Shepherd and many other things in addition to the new name. Your friend is just plain wrong in his claim that Jesus won’t have the same name. What this passage teaches is that Jesus will have a new name, not that he will no longer have his former names.

Next, he makes a claim which has nothing whatsoever to do with the name of Jesus or Revelation 3:12. He asks, “why be surprised about hearing a new name (Bahaullah). What is this? Is this evidence for something? Why should a Christian believe in this fellow Bahaullah? Did he work miracles? Did he die for the sins of the people? Is he God in the flesh? Did he fulfill messianic prophecies? Did he life a perfect life? What is he claiming for this man, and what is the evidence that we should believe in this man? What fear is he talking about? To be honest, his comment about Bahaullah makes no sense. What is he claiming about this man, and what is the basis for accepting this belie?. We all know about Jesus–that he was raised from the dead, that he healed the blind, that he raised the dead, walked on water and fed thousands. He lived a perfect life and died to save all of us from sin. Who is this Bahaullah?

As for Luke 3:4-6, this is an apocalyptic-style prophecy about John the Baptist. John prepared the way for the Lord Jesus. He made straight paths–obviously not literal. He prepared a “straight way” for those who want to follow God. Anyone who has studied the Hebrew scripture will understand that this is apocalyptic literature, which should be taken symbolically. God makes what is rough smooth. He makes the crooked (sinful) ways straight. Jesus offered salvation to all mankind–not just to the Jews, fulfilling the prophecy that all mankind will see God’s salvation. Who else but Jesus provided for forgiveness to all mankind? Bahaullah? Definitely not. In fact, Bahaullah offers salvation to no one. Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. Like it says in 1 John 4:14 that the Son is the Savior of the world. The fulfillment of Isaiah 3:5 and Luke 3:6 is found in Jesus, the one about whom John the Baptist prepared the way, as prophesied in Isaiah 40:3.

What point is your Bahai friend making? Does he feel that Bahaullah is the fulfillment of Luke 3:6? Does he deny that the Bible teaches Jesus is the Savior of the whole world? Is he willing to say that Bahaulla, who was a sinner, who worked no miracles and died for no one is to be compared to Jesus Christ? I believe that there is no comparison.

John Oakes

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shunyadragon said:

Too many points to consider.

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WonderingWorrier said:

That is the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

A so called wise man knows that he is not wise.
There are always more points of view to consider.

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