Do Santa, Christmas Trees etc. Bother You?

KenS said:

God loves the sinner... that is why He moved on your heart. He also moved on other non-believers.

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I think you need to qualify that statement....God loves the sinner but hates the sin. This is why he sent Jesus and his disciples out to preach to the "lost sheep"....not to tell the sinners that they were welcome sin and all, but to show them how to repent and turn their lives around. If God loved the sinner, then why tell the Pharisees that they were bound for "gehenna"?
He forgives sinners only if they repent. Repentance means making real effort not to repeat the sin.

But didn't God tell them - don't go back to King Herod? WHAAAAT? Talking to non-believers? Or were they believers as they offered gifts to what was going to be King Jesus? Why were they "wise" Maggi's? Because they were followers of Satan? I don't think so.

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What does this demonstrate? That satan can use even sincere ones to carry out his agenda unwittingly.
The fact that God warned the Magi not to go back to Herod is proof that they themselves had no evil intent but were merely carrying out a custom among their own people...that of bringing gifts to royal children.
They came in to the child and offered their gold, frankincense ans myrrh.....and did obeisance to this new "King of the Jews"...they did not "worship" him as a deity, nor was there any mention of them becoming Jewish proselytes.

So, you are really making broad assumptions. Who knows, maybe Daniel converted a lot of people?

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There is no way to ascertain whether Daniel managed to convert anyone. Even the majority of the Jews themselves who were exiled in Babylon, did not return to Jerusalem. As prophesied, only a "remnant" did so.

You could say "No, Ken, you are making assumptions" and that would be fine because there is simply not enough information and certainly nothing that says that the devil sent them. We do know that they were "wise", God spoke to them in a dream, and they came to honor Jesus.

None of these things point to being of the devil.

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They were dupes, used by the devil to facilitate the death of Jesus before he could become the Christ. Satan should have realized that God was always a few steps in front of him.

Just to be clear....no one said that the Magi themselves were evil...only that they were not worshippers of the true God, and that the devil used their customs and religious beliefs to achieve his own ends. Deception is what the devil does best...but you knew that, right? The devil is the 'sower' of all false religion, including the false beliefs of Christendom's 'weeds'....Jesus warned us about this.

Absolutely not. Nor is God responsible for the murder of the people of Moses' time because God sent them to Egypt.

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Hang on, are we talking about the 10 plagues?
Why was Israel's (Jacob's) family in Egypt to begin with? How did Joseph get to be the Prime Minister to Pharaoh back then when Israel was in its infancy?

The Pharaoh who presided over a nation of slaves didn't know Joseph and had no soft spot for his family members who had grown to great numbers in that land. He put them to hard labor.

God was most certainly responsible for the execution of those who refused to obey him. Did the Egyptians know that Jehovah their God was with Israel? Didn't Moses and Aaron demonstrate God's power to him in the hope that he would relent? But by his stubbornness, he fought God at every turn, pridefully refusing to let Israel go and bringing the punishment for that refusal on himself and his nation.

The only good thing that came out of all that calamity was that many of the Egyptians, seeing God's undeniable power, marched out of Egypt with Israel.

You can't compare that with Herod's murderous course. It was his idea to kill those babies, not God's. Nothing good came of it.

Not sure how this is applicable... at the most, it covers both you and me equally.

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It sure does....that is why we have to examine what we believe very carefully. Knowing that Jesus and the apostles foretold an apostasy to occur after the apostles got to be "out of the way", we see that a counterfeit form of Christianity emerged after those first century apostles died.

Christmas was part of that apostasy, as was Easter....both of these are the important events on Christendom's calendar....not because they are true, but because they bring people into the church which means money in the coffers. Its amazing what corrupt people will do for money....they will sacrifice truth for mammon.

I hate seeing that happen.

Deeje said:

If the star was sent by God then he is directly responsible for the murder of all those infants.....can that be true?

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You already make excuses for Yahweh's genocides in the Hebrew Bible, which includes babies, so why not one more? Is your hatred of holidays not allowing you to be consistent?

Saint Frankenstein said:

You already make excuses for Yahweh's genocides in the Hebrew Bible, which includes babies, so why not one more? Is your hatred of holidays not allowing you to be consistent?

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What's the difference between an executioner and a murderer Frank....do you know?
If someone murdered someone close to you, and the law dictated that the murderer must be executed....is the executioner then a murderer when he carries out the sentence?

If an entire group of people broke the law and the penalty for their crimes was execution, and the executioner was commissioned to put that entire group to death...would the executioner then be a mass murderer?
Is that genocide?

Does the one who created life, have the authority to end it, if those who break his law were warned in advance of the penalty? Does anyone have a right to challenge his authority and what would happen if they did? What would change?

If the Creator can restore life as easily as he created it, and all those who have lost their lives in the past have not yet had their judgment, what if he can restore those lives and educate those people so that their lives can have real meaning under better circumstances, instead of this sham of an existence fraught with trouble and heartbreak? Would your judgment of him be so harsh?

What if his arch enemy painted God out to be the worst of criminals, but he was himself the worst of criminals, lying through his teeth? Would you know? He's the perfect con artist.


And....what is a "holiday"? Do you know the origin of that term?
Its a "holy day" and yes, I have a problem with someone calling what is unholy..."holy".

People are free to celebrate whatever they like for now, because I believe that Jesus is in the process of separating humankind at this time, ready for the worst catastrophe in the history of the world.....something worse than the worst thing that has ever taken place in man's past or present.....and it is all his fault....he will bring this situation about by himself.....and it will end life as we know it on this planet.
It is written that it must take place and that there will be relatively "few" survivors. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We are in a position at this time to make a decision about who we are....who God is...and what he requires from us if we want to retain our lives through that catastrophic event, which the Bible calls "the great tribulation". (Matthew 24:21) It is part of the "end times" prophesies.

The only thing many people have a problem with now, is indecision. You know, those people who can't make up their mind if something is right or wrong....good or bad.....to do, or not to do...to believe, or not to believe.

I am grateful that I do not have that problem......I know what I believe and why I believe it. I have spent years researching my beliefs very carefully because I am going to stake my life on them.

My beliefs will be the same yesterday, today and tomorrow for as long as I am. But for a lot of people, that kind of decision-making is extremely difficult.....perhaps their decision is to be perpetually indecisive....?
What will be the outcome for such people?

"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways." (James 1:5-8)

According to the Bible, this final event is the only prospect that awaits all of us....its life or death.....believe it or not.

Deeje said:

Does the one who created life, have the authority to end it, if those who break his law were warned in advance of the penalty? Does anyone have a right to challenge his authority and what would happen if they did? What would change?

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Hehe, this reminds me of the angry parent with their idle threats.... "I brought you into this world, and I can see you out of it, too!"

My mother didn't use it, but a friend's mother whom we all loved was quite fond of it. And coming from her, you always believed it was a possibility...

Deeje said:

If an entire group of people broke the law and the penalty for their crimes was execution, and the executioner was commissioned to put that entire group to death...would the executioner then be a mass murderer?
Is that genocide?

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Yes, that's genocide.

Does the one who created life, have the authority to end it, if those who break his law were warned in advance of the penalty? Does anyone have a right to challenge his authority and what would happen if they did? What would change?

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If you create life, you have duties to protect it, like parents towards their children. I expect the Supreme Being, if it can be said to have any anthropomorphic traits, to be held to higher standards than a human parent or any other animal. As far as I'm concerned, your concept of the Supreme Being is very low-grade and rather silly.

JustGeorge said:

Hehe, this reminds me of the angry parent with their idle threats.... "I brought you into this world, and I can see you out of it, too!"

My mother didn't use it, but a friend's mother whom we all loved was quite fond of it. And coming from her, you always believed it was a possibility...

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I sometimes have visions of the ant on the railway track thinking he can stop the locomotive that is hurtling towards him by imagining that its demands must be met.

It amuses me when people think that they can dictate to the Creator....as if somehow their opinion will have to sway him one way or the other.....it is our opinion that must be swayed......his is set in stone.

Deeje said:

I sometimes have visions of the ant on the railway track thinking he can stop the locomotive that is hurtling towards him by imagining that its demands must be met.

It amuses me when people think that they can dictate to the Creator....as if somehow their opinion will have to sway him one way or the other.....it is our opinion that must be swayed......his is set in stone.

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I think we have very different relationships with our Supreme Beings, but that is okay. Yours seems to work for you, as mine works for me.

Deeje said:

I think you need to qualify that statement....God loves the sinner but hates the sin. This is why he sent Jesus and his disciples out to preach to the "lost sheep"....not to tell the sinners that they were welcome sin and all, but to show them how to repent and turn their lives around. If God loved the sinner, then why tell the Pharisees that they were bound for "gehenna"?
He forgives sinners only if they repent. Repentance means making real effort not to repeat the sin.

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The context is that the Maggi could have been led by God and certainly, as they were leaving, did hear from God. Just that.

Deeje said:

What does this demonstrate? That satan can use even sincere ones to carry out his agenda unwittingly.
The fact that God warned the Magi not to go back to Herod is proof that they themselves had no evil intent but were merely carrying out a custom among their own people...that of bringing gifts to royal children.
They came in to the child and offered their gold, frankincense ans myrrh.....and did obeisance to this new "King of the Jews"...they did not "worship" him as a deity, nor was there any mention of them becoming Jewish proselytes.

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All I am saying is that we are still conjecturing as no information is given. Not saying you are wrong, but we are simply "theologically" speaking without enough information available to hold a definite position.

Deeje said:

There is no way to ascertain whether Daniel managed to convert anyone. Even the majority of the Jews themselves who were exiled in Babylon, did not return to Jerusalem. As prophesied, only a "remnant" did so.

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That is correct, just as there is no way to ascertain that Daniel didn't have an impact, though we do know he ultimately was very impactful.

Deeje said:

They were dupes, used by the devil to facilitate the death of Jesus before he could become the Christ. Satan should have realized that God was always a few steps in front of him.

Just to be clear....no one said that the Magi themselves were evil...only that they were not worshippers of the true God, and that the devil used their customs and religious beliefs to achieve his own ends. Deception is what the devil does best...but you knew that, right? The devil is the 'sower' of all false religion, including the false beliefs of Christendom's 'weeds'....Jesus warned us about this.

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But you don't know there weren't worshippers of God. It doesn't say what they believed in or who they worshipped. What we do know is that they came to honor Jesus.

Deeje said:

Hang on, are we talking about the 10 plagues?
Why was Israel's (Jacob's) family in Egypt to begin with? How did Joseph get to be the Prime Minister to Pharaoh back then when Israel was in its infancy?

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No... I am talking about all the babies that were ordered killed by Pharaoh before Moses was placed in the river.

Deeje said:

It sure does....that is why we have to examine what we believe very carefully. Knowing that Jesus and the apostles foretold an apostasy to occur after the apostles got to be "out of the way", we see that a counterfeit form of Christianity emerged after those first century apostles died.

Christmas was part of that apostasy, as was Easter....both of these are the important events on Christendom's calendar....not because they are true, but because they bring people into the church which means money in the coffers. Its amazing what corrupt people will do for money....they will sacrifice truth for mammon.

I hate seeing that happen.

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Yes, we do have to be careful. But you have no "authoritative" position on this one. you do have an authoritative position on the Nativity scene.

Saint Frankenstein said:

Yes, that's genocide.

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When those guilty of genocide are hauled before the International Court of Human Rights for unlawfully taking life in a combat/war situation, don't you find it odd that humans killing other humans have laws or rules attached to them? Is it murder to kill in a war? No one seems to think so because the killing is justified.

The genocide that took place, and for which they are standing trial, was unauthorized killing within an authorized killing situation. Some killing is sanctioned and some is not depending on the circumstances. But war is ugly and usually fought by men with greedy agendas. What is the killing supposed to accomplish? Why do humans think that war is still necessary in this 21st century?

In the Bible, God sanctioned wars only when the land of his people was threatened by conquerors. He protected his own as long as they fulfilled their obligations to him. If they failed to do that, he abandoned them to their enemies.

Humans recognize authorized killing in their own ranks, so why can't the Creator exercise his legitimate right to remove life when the gift is abused and an individual or group has broken laws that carry the death penalty? No one has more right to do that than he does.

If God provided life, then he has the right to dictate the terms of our existence here on his property.....we have no right to demand anything different. The terms are not unreasonable nor are they harsh.
If you sign a tenancy agreement and you break your stated obligation to the Landlord, like it or not, your tenancy will be terminated. Will your whining make the Landlord change his mind?

If you create life, you have duties to protect it, like parents towards their children. I expect the Supreme Being, if it can be said to have any anthropomorphic traits, to be held to higher standards than a human parent or any other animal. As far as I'm concerned, your concept of the Supreme Being is very low-grade and rather silly.

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You can think whatever you like....nothing changes about the Creator because we individually choose to believe something different about him. You can be that ant on the railway track but running over you will not even cause a ripple to the locomotive.

If you go back to the beginning and see what kind of life God provided for his 'children' at the outset, it wasn't God who took that away from them, it was those who thought they could dictate the terms of their own existence to the one who created them....they ruined everything for their children because of their own selfishness....born into a debt that no one could pay.

You see, its not about him disappointing us as you seem to stress......its about us disappointing him. He has nothing to prove to us...it is we who need to prove something to him.....our worthiness to keep living.
....God does not need us at all. He tells us how to keep living and its up to us to do as he says, because if we don't, who is to blame for the outcome? All our complaining will change nothing.

He has promised to restore what he intended at the beginning, but only those who understand why we are here, and what our obligations are to our Maker, to the earth itself, and to each other...will get to enjoy what is coming. Is that unfair?

Meerkat said:

So what is it then? Certainly not Christian.

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Symbols take on the meaning that we may attach to them. Therefore, even if some came from non-Christian sources originally, what they came to symbolize is what's important.

For example, in Hinduism the swastika means "conducive to well-being", but certainly that isn't what it has come to mean to most of us in the west after WWII.

Considering that I was there at Jesus' birth, I know for a fact he was not born on December 25th. Celebrate the holiday as you wish, just also know the facts.

Goddess Kit said:

Considering that I was there at Jesus' birth, I know for a fact he was not born on December 25th. Celebrate the holiday as you wish, just also know the facts.

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In Catholicism, that date was selected not because that was his birthdate, which we obviously have no clue when that happened, but for his recognition of coming into this world, thus put on the liturgical calendar for commemoration.

That's certainly one erroneous understanding.

Goddess Kit said:

That's certainly one erroneous understanding.

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How could you possibly known that? Logically, you can't, so...

You telling me what I can and cannot know. Brilliant.

Goddess Kit said:

You telling me what I can and cannot know. Brilliant.

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Then maybe provide us with your supposed proof instead of just making smear statements?

Well, isn't that just a stalemate in any debate?

The theists is always insistent that the non-believer has no reason to be a non-believer while the non-believer understands any deific claim has to be proven beyond the kind of faith owing its existence to imagination.

Goddess Kit said:

Well, isn't that just a stalemate in any debate?

The theists is always insistent that the non-believer has no reason to be a non-believer while the non-believer understands any deific claim has to be proven beyond the kind of faith owing its existence to imagination.

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If you want to post that which is nothing short of stereotyping and bigotry, that's your right here at RF, but I simply don't buy into them or those that use them.

I am asking you to simply be true to yourself. That tells me everything.

KenS said:

The context is that the Maggi could have been led by God and certainly, as they were leaving, did hear from God. Just that.

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Did God communicate with people who were not his own in times past when it was in connection with his stated purpose?
Who provided the dream that Joseph interpreted?....it was from God. That ended up getting the prisoner Joseph elevated to Prime Minister by a very impressed Pharaoh....and preserved the lineage leading to the Messiah.

Who gave the dream to Nebuchadnezzar regarding the march of world powers which was interpreted by Daniel? We are living in the time pictured by the feet of that dream image....a time for the return of the Messiah and the establishment of his Kingdom. (Daniel 2:44)

With the Magi, since the life of God's son was under threat, and the future of the human race depended on him, God intervened to warn the Magi not to return to Herod. This intervention was necessary to protect the promised Messiah and to ensure his mission.

What do we know about the Babylonians and their worship.....what led to them being destroyed as a nation?
God used this world power to punish his own people and to destroy their city along with its Temple. But later he used another nation, (Medo-Persia) whose leader Cyrus, was named hundreds of years prior to his birth as being the one who would conquer Babylon.

We can see that God communicated with people who were not his worshippers on the occasions when it involved his Messiah in some way.

KenS said:

All I am saying is that we are still conjecturing as no information is given. Not saying you are wrong, but we are simply "theologically" speaking without enough information available to hold a definite position.

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It seems to be pretty clear to me. There is enough information to form an opinion on this because the Magi are an integral part of Christendom's "Christmas" story. And seeing as how this celebration is not of Christian origin, the Babylonian astrologers fit another picture of that story entirely. What good was accomplished by their visit, compared with the evil that resulted?

KenS said:

That is correct, just as there is no way to ascertain that Daniel didn't have an impact, though we do know he ultimately was very impactful.

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Daniel was taken captive to Babylon as a teenager and maintained his worship of Jehovah throughout his life, in spite of the false religious climate of the empire where he was held captive. There is no mention of Daniel converting anyone to the worship of Jehovah. The Babylonians had so many gods that the accommodation of Daniel's God among them may not have been uncommon. Nebuchadnezzar came to respect Daniel's God, especially after the lion's den incident.

KenS said:

But you don't know there weren't worshippers of God. It doesn't say what they believed in or who they worshipped. What we do know is that they came to honor Jesus.

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Yes, they came to honor a new king. It was apparently their custom to bring gifts to royal children. The term Magi, indicates that they were not worshippers of Jehovah, and mention of following "his star" fits in with them being astrologers, since Babylon's religion was rife with spiritistic practices. If they had been worshippers of Daniel's God they would not have been practicing astrology....it was against their Law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
They did obeisance to the new king as an act of respect, but they did not worship him as God.

KenS said:

No... I am talking about all the babies that were ordered killed by Pharaoh before Moses was placed in the river.

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Oh, OK.....The reason for that (as you probably know) was Pharaoh's worry over Israel's increasing population and the fear that if the slaves rebelled, they would outnumber the Egyptians and use their superior strength to fight with their enemies. So it was ordered that the midwives kill all the male babies, whilst preserving the females alive. The Hebrew midwives didn't do what was asked of them however, and made the excuse that the Hebrew women were strong and by the time the midwives arrived they had already given birth. So I have no idea how many babies died (if any) on that occasion. (Exodus 1:15-21)

KenS said:

Yes, we do have to be careful. But you have no "authoritative" position on this one. you do have an authoritative position on the Nativity scene.

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I have an authoritative position on my own beliefs, (as no doubt you feel that you have) as they conform to what the rest of scripture teaches.
We have all placed our confidence somewhere....but I cannot accommodate any beliefs that do not have real substance in scripture, allowing other scripture and research to provide the most correct interpretation.

As for the nativity...like all things related to Christmas, it is full of false stories. And knowing the source of those stories, should give all Christians pause to reflect on what God thinks of it, not whether it is just acceptable to them. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Poison can be dished up in a pretty cup.

I have not celebrated Christmas now for 50 years....and I have never missed it. We don't need a fake date on a calendar to give gifts to our loved ones or to meet as a family to enjoy a meal.....do we? And since Jesus as a Jew, would not have celebrated his own birthday, because of its unholy pagan roots, why would we adopt pagan celebrations, spread a thin veneer of Christianity over it, and expect God not to care? (1 Peter 1:14-16)

Being a slave to this religious tradition is like being shackled to a thief. You pay for the privilege of being ripped off by the devil...in more ways than one....