how so? Bible does not teach that. It's presumption, I think.
ah - but this can't be your proof verse that God forgives just anything without getting asked, I think.
Again, this is not a presumption. It's experience. Experience teaches us a whole lot more than what we speculate by trying to reason something. All it takes is one experience, to lay waste to all our cognitive presumptions and speculations. I don't know if I've pointed you to this cleaver cartoon I came across sometime ago, but it speaks directly to this. If you start with a lack of experience, all you have is speculations.
The eyes we use to read scriptures, will determine how we read it. If you have the experience of unconditional love, you will read scripture though those eyes. If all you have the experience of is conditional love, that will determine how you read scripture.
Firstly, this verse referred to a very specific situation, in my opinion. And secondly, even at that very occasion there were some who were not forgiven, as I see it: Mark 12:9.
So Jesus differentiates between groups, as I see it. To the one group he said "they know not what they do"... but the other group knew very well what they did: Mark 12:7.
All of these verses fit in with what I said previously, and I could have cited them as supports as well. It's about the religious hypocrisies of those who claim to be faithful to God, but betray their insincerities by the rotten things that they do. "By their fruits you shall know them".
Suffering torture he just did not have the time to work this out in a detailed statement, I think... that's why Bible gives more detail about it before.
That's speculation. That is not what scripture says. See? That can go both ways. I honestly think you should drop all this language of saying my thoughts are theories, speculations, assumptions, etc. That goes equally, if not more for you. It does not contribute anything to the discussion. Thank you.
that wasn't what I said. To be clear: I'm against works-based salvation which is a farce in my opinion. I'm rather convinced only Jesus saves, not own works.
But here's the thing. The minute you say God is conditional love, you make it about works. It's that simple. If you don't do something right, God does not love you. If you do something right God loves you. That's a salvation of works. You're promoting that by saying God love is conditional. I don't think you can reconcile that with saying salvation is by Grace.
I said, some get thrown out. For misbehavior.
They get thrown out because their bad works betray their lack of faith. "By their fruits you shall know them". It's not the works that did that, because we all do bad things from time to time. It's their insincerity that get's them in hot water, so to speak.
When you say, they get thrown out for misbehavior, that is plain and simple a salvation based upon works, not Grace.
They do something and then get thrown out.
So, do you believe if you do something bad, you get thrown out? God will not accept you unless you obey all the rules, to the letter of the law? That is conditional love. Was this what it was like for you with your parents? For me, it was not like that.
So it's the other way round: they "earn" being thrown out.... so still: no unconditional love there.
It is as Bible says (see passage in provious post).
So then you "earn" being included. Exactly what you just said. Thomas, you are preaching a salvation of works here. That is what is not Biblical.
You say that's your experience. Bible only please.
I can't, and you can't. Our experiences, will determine how we read the Bible and relate to the Divine. I am using the Bible, but I am sharing my understanding of it, based upon my experiences, as well as my extensive studies of it. You are not doing "Bible only" yourself. You are projecting yourself and your experiences, of what sounds like conditional love (which is not true love, IMO), into scriptures. You are trying to understand what love is from scripture, as is illustrated in the cartoon figures above.
Christianity cannot change the rules as laid out in the Bible just for someone claiming experience, I think.
To be sure, Christianity changes the meaning of the Bible all the time. How do you account for the 40,000 plus different denominations out there? But to be clear, in my view, what I am saying IS what is laid out in the Bible. Many years of study, faith, and experience teaches me this.
Using your justification, anyone could go ahead and try to impose no matter what theology based on what they think is experience.
First, that is what already happens with you and everyone else out there. You are imposing conditional love upon God, based upon your apparent experiences. However, and this is key, even though people may have different ways in which they understand scripture, Love is Love.
Jesus made quite clear how we are to distinguish truth faith where it exists. It's very simple. "By their fruits you shall know them". Not by their doctrines or beliefs or theologies, but by their fruits. You cannot fake fruits, but you can certainly fake faith. And that is what all those other passages about being "cast out" are about. Not works, but insincerity before God.
but I refuted your point... namely that your verses would show that God's forgiveness is unconditional.
No you haven't refuted my point. Those verses coincide with other ones I cited previously. There is no inconsistency, which I can see. That you have to "earn" God's love, is not what those verses are about. But that is how you applied them by saying the "earned" God's rejection.
The reality is, the denied themselves God's Grace, through a lack of faith and a lack of surrender. It's not God withholding Love from them. It's them denying it for themselves. Big difference. God is always there, unconditionally. I like to say it this way. God is always there just waiting for us to be done doing everything but coming to him. That's unconditional love. We don't have to measure up, but we have to want it sincerely within our hearts.
I stay with my opinion. Even if the Bible speaks a lot about facing ourselves and surrendering to that Divine Love..., this does not mean that it is understood to be the same as knowing forgiveness.
Maybe this is part of the source of your confusion about this. "Forgiveness", to me is another word for receiving God's Grace. We don't deserve it, but it's there for us nonetheless. And when we accept it, then the floodgates open and we are received as we are, repentant, but not perfect. Surely you must understand this?
I have to take a break at this point in responding to your points, as it's pretty much repeating what I've covered above. I'll be happy to continue this with you, as it seems such a puzzle to you understanding the nature of unconditional love. May I ask, have you ever experienced unconditional love in your life from any other human being?
