The Unitarian Problem

Redemptionsong said:

I was shown a website called the Unitarian Christian Association. It strikes me that this is a contradiction in terms, given that Christians believe in the deity of Christ.

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It is well documented that not all Christians believe in the Trinitarian divinity of Jesus. It is rather egocentric for you to believe all Christians must believe as you do.

Redemptionsong said:

You're speaking the language of the twenty-first century. Isaiah was speaking 700 years before the birth of Christ, and he gives the perspective of a man surveying his horizons. There is absolutely no indication from the Bible that people thought the earth was flat!

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Interpretations vary in the ancient world. There are many who interpreted the world as not totally flat, but like an upside down hubcap including many people of the Mid East.. The main cosmological problem is geocentrism as the fixed Earth centered Cosmos, and the firmament separation of the waters above and below.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

shunyadragon said:

It is well documented that not all Christians believe in the Trinitarian divinity of Jesus. It is rather egocentric for you to believe all Christians must believe as you do.

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Maybe you can provide your definition of what it means to be a Christian?

If it's impossible to define what it means to be a Christian, then there is no such thing as true doctrine. Yet, along with many others, I believe scripture provides that true doctrine.

shunyadragon said:

Interpretations vary in the ancient world. There are many who interpreted the world as not totally flat, but like an upside down hubcap including many people of the Mid East.. The main cosmological problem is geocentrism as the fixed Earth centered Cosmos, and the firmament separation of the waters above and below.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

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Yes, it's about interpretation of scripture. So, I ask, have you discovered scriptures that are untrue?

74x12 said:

Yes Jesus pre-existed as God.

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Let's look at this a little closer.

You acknowledge the trinity; in a form that does not undermine the oneness of God.

The Father is Holy Spirit
The Word is Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit

All three are Holy Spirit, and one God.

Now you say that Jesus pre-existed. Did the humanity, the body and soul of Jesus pre-exist?

To me, Jesus is the humanity born of Mary. Christ is the anointing, the Holy Spirit that came upon Jesus at baptism.

When the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at baptism, he became a mediator. He became 100% human, and 100% God.

At crucifixion, the body of Jesus was put to death. The soul of Jesus descended into the grave. Three days and three nights later, the Spirit of God, which had left Jesus at crucifixion, returned to raise the soul and body of Jesus in an immortal, spiritual, condition. Jesus Christ, the Son of man, then ascended to heaven to become King. From there, the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the Church.

This is my, simplified, understanding of the process.

By saying that Jesus pre-existed, you are telling me that the humanity of Jesus pre-existed, and this makes no sense. Did the soul of Jesus pre-exist and enter the womb of Mary? Did the soul of Jesus exist in heaven distinct from the soul of his Father? Please explain.

Redemptionsong said:

You're speaking the language of the twenty-first century. Isaiah was speaking 700 years before the birth of Christ, and he gives the perspective of a man surveying his horizons. There is absolutely no indication from the Bible that people thought the earth was flat!

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To the contrary, a circle is a 2 dimensional object. You should do yourself the favour of reading the Wikipedia article about beliefs of ancient Jews about the earth.

Also you are reading, "the perspective of a man surveying his horizons" into the text. As far as I can tell it does not say that at all.

danieldemol said:

To the contrary, a circle is a 2 dimensional object. You should do yourself the favour of reading the Wikipedia article about beliefs of ancient Jews about the earth.

Also you are reading, "the perspective of a man surveying his horizons" into the text. As far as I can tell it does not say that at all.

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What is your point? Do you doubt that Isaiah was a prophet?

Redemptionsong said:

Now you say that Jesus pre-existed. Did the humanity, the body and soul of Jesus pre-exist?

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Yes the humanity of Jesus did pre-exist because God never changes (Malachi 3:6) and it also says Jesus never changes. (Hebrews 13:8) So since it was always in God's purpose to come in human form; (Romans 8:29) therefore it was already done since the beginning of the world. God finished all His work on the 7th day of creation.

1 Peter 1:20 says Jesus was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world. So that was the same "Word" that John 1:1 talks about being both with God and also being God Himself. The foreordained Word is that God would be manifest in the flesh. So that's what I mean that His humanity pre-existed with God. Because it was already in God's plan to become human.

To God there is no such thing as time as we know it. He's already in the future; but there had a to come a time (to us) when Jesus became human to be the Savior. But to God; God is already finished and He's already resting in the new Jerusalem and the new heaven and earth are already finished.

Redemptionsong said:

When the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at baptism, he became a mediator. He became 100% human, and 100% God.

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You can't really become God in my opinion. You either are or you are not God. So Jesus was always God.

Redemptionsong said:

To me, Jesus is the humanity born of Mary. Christ is the anointing, the Holy Spirit that came upon Jesus at baptism.

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So you're saying Jesus was just human until the baptism? The problem with that is there are other people who are anointed with the holy Spirit also. Have they also become God? Just being anointed with the holy Spirit doesn't make you God.

Redemptionsong said:

At crucifixion, the body of Jesus was put to death. The soul of Jesus descended into the grave. Three days and three nights later, the Spirit of God, which had left Jesus at crucifixion, returned to raise the soul and body of Jesus in an immortal, spiritual, condition. Jesus Christ, the Son of man, then ascended to heaven to become King. From there, the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the Church.

This is my, simplified, understanding of the process.

By saying that Jesus pre-existed, you are telling me that the humanity of Jesus pre-existed, and this makes no sense. Did the soul of Jesus pre-exist and enter the womb of Mary? Did the soul of Jesus exist in heaven distinct from the soul of his Father? Please explain.

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Jesus and the Father have one and the same soul and Spirit. God is able to send His Spirit out (Psalm 104:30). I believe the fullness of the Divine nature indwelled Jesus from the womb as it claims in Colossians 2:8-9 and Colossians 1:19. That means all that it means to be God and all that is God was living in Jesus bodily.

It was only His physical body that was created as it says in Hebrews 10:5. This was because God needed to die for our sins. But God is immortal; therefore He needed a physical, mortal body to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

Colossians 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

Colossians 2:8-9 Be careful that you don’t let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,

shunyadragon said:

The problem of your claim of 'understanding' is too subjective, and yes, results in many divisions in Christianity, and the lack of definitive support in the Tanakh.

God dwelling in Jesus Christ is nit the same as Jesus Christ being the incarnate Son of God in a Trinitarian belief. All the strict Monotheist religions of Judaism, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith believe God dwells in the chosen Messiah.

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What I mean when I say God was dwelling in Jesus is that God made Himself a physical body to live in the world. That is to say Jesus' soul and Spirit are God's soul and Spirit.

danieldemol said:

But if the bible can be dismissed as non-factual poetry wherever it disagrees with science we can dismiss all of genesis as poetry, in which case evolution is the source of man, and there is no literal fall requiring Jesus atonement for salvation etc

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The book of Isaiah is often poetic in the Hebrew. Genesis not so much.

I believe the poetry is factual by the way but in a spiritual sense.

74x12 said:

Yes the humanity of Jesus did pre-exist because God never changes (Malachi 3:6) and it also says Jesus never changes. (Hebrews 13:8) So since it was always in God's purpose to come in human form; (Romans 8:29) therefore it was already done since the beginning of the world. God finished all His work on the 7th day of creation.

1 Peter 1:20 says Jesus was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world. So that was the same "Word" that John 1:1 talks about being both with God and also being God Himself. The foreordained Word is that God would be manifest in the flesh. So that's what I mean that His humanity pre-existed with God. Because it was already in God's plan to become human.

To God there is no such thing as time as we know it. He's already in the future; but there had a to come a time (to us) when Jesus became human to be the Savior. But to God; God is already finished and He's already resting in the new Jerusalem and the new heaven and earth are already finished.

You can't really become God in my opinion. You either are or you are not God. So Jesus was always God.

So you're saying Jesus was just human until the baptism? The problem with that is there are other people who are anointed with the holy Spirit also. Have they also become God? Just being anointed with the holy Spirit doesn't make you God.

Jesus and the Father have one and the same soul and Spirit. God is able to send His Spirit out (Psalm 104:30). I believe the fullness of the Divine nature indwelled Jesus from the womb as it claims in Colossians 2:8-9 and Colossians 1:19. That means all that it means to be God and all that is God was living in Jesus bodily.

It was only His physical body that was created as it says in Hebrews 10:5. This was because God needed to die for our sins. But God is immortal; therefore He needed a physical, mortal body to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

Colossians 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

Colossians 2:8-9 Be careful that you don’t let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,

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I understand that 'in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of Godhead bodily'. This tells us clearly that there's a distinction to be made between the vessel [Jesus the man] and the Godhead [Father, Word and Holy Spirit].

To confirm this distinction, look at Acts 10:38:
'How God [Gk. Theos] anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him'.

If I now change the name Jesus to God, we have the following rendition of Acts 10:38:
'How God anointed God with the Holy Ghost [God] and with power: who [God] went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with God'.

Does this really make sense?

Redemptionsong said:

Yes, it's about interpretation of scripture. So, I ask, have you discovered scriptures that are untrue?

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Differences in interpretation are not a matter of being true nor false.

74x12 said:

What I mean when I say God was dwelling in Jesus is that God made Himself a physical body to live in the world. That is to say Jesus' soul and Spirit are God's soul and Spirit.

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What you mean and interprete is obviously different from others.

The book of Isaiah is often poetic in the Hebrew. Genesis not so much.

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True.

I believe the poetry is factual by the way but in a spiritual sense.

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The fact is it is not necessarily factual in the Christina interpretation.

Redemptionsong said:

What is your point? Do you doubt that Isaiah was a prophet?

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Isaiah was undoubtedly a false prophet, like all the rest of the prophets. You can find explanation of my views on Isaiah in this thread;
How To Make a Believable Prophecy

shunyadragon said:

Differences in interpretation are not a matter of being true nor false.

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Are they not?
You're beginning to sound like Pontius Pilate, who asked, 'What is truth?'

God understands his own Word, and the meaning He intends to convey. As such, I prefer to follow Jesus Christ, who said 'l am the way, the truth, and the life'. Jesus Christ also promised to send the Comforter, the Spirit of truth.

Speaking of the Comforter, Jesus said, 'he will guide you into all truth'.

danieldemol said:

Isaiah was undoubtedly a false prophet, like all the rest of the prophets. You can find explanation of my views on Isaiah in this thread;
How To Make a Believable Prophecy

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Then, am l to assume you believe Jesus Christ was a liar?

Redemptionsong said:

Then, am l to assume you believe Jesus Christ was a liar?

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Not a liar, but certainly egotistical and a false Prophet

danieldemol said:

Not a liar, but certainly egotistical and a false Prophet

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I like to know where people stand.

You make Jesus a liar by implication. Jesus believed that the Law, the Prophets and the Writings were the inspired word of God [Luke 24:27]. He uses the words of Isaiah [Chapter 61:1; Luke 4:18] as confirmation of his anointing as the Messiah. If Jesus were deluded, or a false prophet, then he deserved to die under the law [Deuteronomy 13:5].

None of the accusations made against him at his trial were proved.

Thereafter, the eyewitness accounts say that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Is this how God treats false prophets?

So, now God becomes the liar.

Redemptionsong said:

Are they not?
You're beginning to sound like Pontius Pilate, who asked, 'What is truth?'

God understands his own Word, and the meaning He intends to convey. As such, I prefer to follow Jesus Christ, who said 'l am the way, the truth, and the life'. Jesus Christ also promised to send the Comforter, the Spirit of truth.

Speaking of the Comforter, Jesus said, 'he will guide you into all truth'.

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Sure sure, why is their many diverse conflicting conclusions among Jews, the many denominations of Christianity and Islam as to what truth is? Everyone often has a different interpretation.

shunyadragon said:

Sure sure, why is their many diverse conflicting conclusions among Jews, the many denominations of Christianity and Islam as to what truth is? Everyone often has a different interpretation.

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I don't believe the one God wants conflict. I believe every conclusion we reach should be a conclusion reached through the Spirit of love. One God, and one truth.

Redemptionsong said:

I like to know where people stand.

You make Jesus a liar by implication.

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Wrong, if Jesus believed what He was saying then He is not lying, just misled.

If Jesus were deluded, or a false prophet, then he deserved to die under the law [Deuteronomy 13:5].

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Not if that law where itself the product of false prophets. There is nothing inherently worthy of death in being a false prophet.

Thereafter, the eyewitness accounts say that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

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No the scriptures where not written by eyewitnesses.

So, now God becomes the liar.

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wrong again.