Bird123
Well-Known Member
You make a very good point. It's one that should not be ignored. It points to the real Truth:
LIFE IS THE ONLY LESSON OR MESSAGE COMING FROM GOD!!
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
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The Teachings of God/Allah
- Thread starter SalixIncendium
- Start date
You make a very good point. It's one that should not be ignored. It points to the real Truth:
LIFE IS THE ONLY LESSON OR MESSAGE COMING FROM GOD!!
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Belief in incarnating Demigods will never mesh well with us pure monotheists/monists.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I understand if our Christian friends understand the above reality, then G-d and Allah is the same in different language. Right, please?
Regards
Brian2
Veteran Member
We Christians did not write the Bible. If the OT says:
Isa 44:24 "Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,"
and then the NT says, concerning Jesus and quoting Psalm 102:24-27 which is about YHWH, says
Heb 1:10 “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Using those scriptures and many others about Jesus and the Holy Spirit,
us Christians just put 2 and 2 together and come up with 3.
If the Jews won't budge that one God cannot have more than one person that is up to them. They see Jesus as a fraud who did not rise from the dead. If they believed the story of Jesus they might realise who He is.
I think it was a good thing for God to have stressed monotheism and that He is the only God originally and then expanding that oneness to include more than one person in the one God.
So what I am saying is that if both the NT and OT are true, there are 3 who are called YHWH in the Bible and those 3 comprise the One God, YHWH.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
" who did not rise from the dead"
Yes, like Jonah, Jesus did not rise from the dead. Right, please?
There are many obvious clues in the Bible. Right, please?
Regards
___________________
One may like to read first chapter of 18 pages by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from the following:
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Jesus-in-India.pdf
Last edited:
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
If the OT (Tanakh) is true, then you have to judge the NT upon the agreed upon solid doctrines that the OT (Tanakh) is consistent upon.
If the NT (in your view) contradicts this (saying that "God" is now 3 in one) then it has to be automatically rejected as blasphemy against the God of the OT (Tanakh), if not, you will merely create a circular reasoning fallacy in which you say;
"God is three because I believe the NT says so, and the NT is true, so I interpret the NT onto the OT now".
In the symbiotic relationship the NT has to the OT (directly quoting it), it creates the unique problem of having to accept what the OT says doctrinally.
You don't however, you do the circular reasoning I said, where you take your interpretation of the NT over what the OT itself says, and interject your interpretation of the NT onto the OT, even when it harshly contradicts everything you're saying.
That is very very very poor exegesis, which you should be ashamed of.
You are moving the goalposts as:
1. Torah says God is one, there is no other etc
2. You believe that your interpretation of the NT is correct
3. You interpret your interpretive theology from the NT onto the Torah
4. Even though they say the complete opposite, you then take the Torah to actually be saying what the NT is saying
firedragon
Veteran Member
Amanthu billahi in arabic means believing in "the God". Allah, meaning "The God". Its just two different languages.
If there is a difference between two different religions, it is the differences of the theologians, not the prophets interpretations. Someone got it wrong if its the same prophets spoken of. Logically the prophets, if they are one or the same, they said one thing, and people wrote down different things.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
No, they are not, neither God nor Allah. Because God has sent further instructions through more prophet / son /messengers / manifestations / mahdis. Unless people follow the latest prophet / son /messengers / manifestations / mahdis, they cannot be said to be following God / Allah. After Mohammad, God / Allah has sent Joseph Smith, Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and two Sai Babas to India (Shirdi Sai and Puttaparthi Sai, Sai is the word for Master). Puttaparthi Sai died only in 2011.
Puttaparthi Sai, Shirdi Sai
Brian2
Veteran Member
I think the scripture you are referring to is about when Jesus said that we need to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Jesus was saying that He was not referring to His actual flesh and blood but was referring to hearing and believing His words in order to get life.
Jesus is the Son of God and has the same nature of God and so is equal to God His Father. Even the Jewish teachers knew what He was saying when He called God His Father, they knew He was claiming equality with His Father and so wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.
Since Baha'u'llah did not come as it was promised that Jesus would return, that means that Baha'u'llah is not the return of Jesus the Christ.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Thanks for the link. Interesting reading but the Biblical reasons given for rejecting the death and resurrection of Jesus are not good ones. They are what is called twisting the scriptures. You should read the prophecies about the Messiah's death and resurrection in the Old Testament. Maybe start with Isa 53. This shows that what Jesus did when He died and rose again was the will of His Father who sent Him. Jesus came to take our sins on Himself and endure the punishment they deserve so that we might be saved from God's judgement on us, through faith in Jesus.
We don't have to work hard to be good enough for God to choose us, if He is willing, we need to be seen by God as someone who believed and was willing to follow Jesus.
Jesus death shows God's love for us. It shows that God loves us so much that He wanted His Son to suffer and die for our sins.
Jesus was a man and did not want to die and asked His Father to save Him from that death if possible, but said He was willing to go through with it anyway. And He did go through with it and it is His death which is the real gospel message, the good news that God loves us to save us when we cannot save ourselves.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The NT does not contradict the OT however.
The word "one" at Deut 6:4 is used as it is in Genesis when it says the man and the woman became one flesh. (Gen 2:24). The Jews don't want to agree with that because they reject Jesus as the Messiah.
I believe my interpretation of the NT is correct, having looked at other interpretations.
The Torah says the Messiah will be the Son of God and even calls Him God.
The OT and the NT do not say the opposite. The Jewish interpretation of the OT contradicts the NT however. The first Christians were Jews and knew the OT and knew what they were teaching actually fulfilled the OT and did not contradict it. The Jews who did not accept Jesus stuck to their guns and dug their heels in.
If you want to say that the OT says the opposite to the NT then show me where.
No there are hundreds of passages in the Bible that tell you Flesh is of this world and it is Spirit that is life.
The gravest mistake of the Christains was to make God flesh in any way shape or form.
Jesus was born of flesh, but was 'Annointed' with the Holy Spirit that is of God. That is who Christ is 'The Annointed One'
Romans 8:6
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Do a Google search on 'Bible passage about flesh' and then look at what they are saying
Romans 8:13
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
Romans 8:7
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."
Colossians 3:1-25
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
These are all saying it is in Spirit we are One with Christ and things if the flesh tie us to this world and are death.
That Christains can not accept the return of Christ will be in Spirit, the same way it was with Jesus, is why they are yet to see the Messages of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who also were Annointed with the Holy Spirit, or were Christ returned.
Consider, the Jews missed the Son, but also they have now missed the Father, but the world is now under God's Plan for humanity, the stage is set, the battle being fought and soon we will see the victory unfold.
Ponder why the Holy Land has Jew, Christain, Muslim and Baha'i Holy places all worshiping One God and ponder how all these Faiths are in every Nation, it is only a matter of continued convulsions shaking the limbs of mankind, to show God is pointing us towards His Kingdom and not one of our own making.
Regards Tony
I see Jesus as Christ was indeed the Perfect reflection of God and in that way they are One. In accepting this, it does not then mean we then say the Son is the Father, that is logically wrong and shown in this world not to be so.
I see Jesus the Christ and the Message He gave is all we can know of God, except Christ said I have more to say unto you and that the Spirit of Truth would again come and guide us unto all Truth.
The Bible then tells us of a time before Christ comes as the Father to bring thy Kingdom Come. It tells us of the Message of Muhammad who came to direct us again unto God's Law and help the Christains to prepare for the day of the Father. Muhammad corrected incorrect doctrine that was going to make it difficult for minds to accept the Father. It tells us the Message of Muhammad will be rejected and that the dead body of that Faith will survive for 1260 years before the promise of the end times would unfold.
I see the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the requirements of the Old and New Testaments to bring the Day of God to humanity, so do many millions of others.
The Bible also warns us that in that day, there will be many eyes that will not see, as the thief caught them unawares.
Man made Doctrine has clouded the minds of man, I can only offer they are the clouds Christ always returns upon and it is why many that offer praise to God, persecute God's Messengers, when all the while they pray for God to fulfill the promises.
This is such a big topic, if you choose one prophey, maybe we can do that in detail. Trying to give a whole picture can not be done. It's like trying to show the universe on the top of a needle point.
Regards Tony
In the Quran it is said:
… The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah … …believe in Allah and His messengers. …
Surat An-Nisā' 4:171
Surah An-Nisa - 4:171
So, if Allah says we should believe Jesus, he seems to be the same.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The Jews were used to hearing "son of God". They never believed it was a biological son-ship.
Brian2
Veteran Member
As with the first quote you gave about the flesh (John 6:61-65) the other scriptures you quote seem to be taken in a way that was not meant at all. Also none of this negates the scriptures about Jesus return in person, and the scriptures which tell us what He will do when He returns. Baha'u'llah is not the same Jesus and did not come in the same way the disciples saw Him ascend to heaven. (Acts 1) Baha'u'llah has done none of the things that the returned Jesus will do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless you interpret everything symbolically or in some weird way that twists the meaning around to agree with what Baha'i and Baha'u'llah tell you to believe.
At the end of the day it all means that Baha'i, and so you, deny much of what is written in the Bible so that Baha'u'llah can take the place of Jesus even when the only prophecies that Baha'u'llah fulfils are those which warn us about false Christs.
And even those prophecies in the Bible are not listened to by Baha'is because you change the meaning or are blinded to the real meaning, and warning,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is that you should reject Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ.
If you want a Kingdom that is not one of your own making then wait for the real Jesus.
Oh dear, do you realise that could be your stance and not mine.
I will offer no more Brian 2, I wish you all the best, as you wait.
Regards Tony
Brian2
Veteran Member
I don't see the Bible as saying any of those things.
I don't see that the Bab or Baha'u'llah fulfilled any requirements.
I also see in the Bible that no one will be able to miss the return of Jesus when He comes.
Luke 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus was the Son long before He became a man. He was sent to be a man in the body God prepared for Him but I don't think the Father can be said to be Jesus biological Father.