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Interpretation... Or God's View

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Do you really think God is dependent on anyone??
No, and that is not what I said.

I said: That's correct. And the way God educates humans is by sending Messengers who teach them.

It is humans who are dependent upon God, and that is why God sends Messengers to teach humans.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think you are jumping semantics hoops for convenience. You are utilizing words on the whim, to make your position seem different to what you are trying to escape - namely that your position is no different to the Christians you try to make inferior to your religion.
You said this earlier ... Yes, Baha'u'llah’s interpretation of the Bible is His viewpoint on the Bible.

I never said that Christians are inferior. I only stated what I believe about Baha’u’llah.
I understand what you are saying here.
People do interpret these verses differently.
How would you go about getting the right understanding.? You accept whatever Bahaullah says, because you believe he is an infallible divinely inspired messenger of God.
In other words, you accept Bahaullah's viewpoint.
No, as I told you before, Baha’u’llah did not interpret the Bible verses. I have my own viewpoint, which is based upon what the Baha’i Faith teaches about the end of the old age and the beginning of a new age.
I however, use the Bible to gain understanding from what it says
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... what is written.
What does the Bible say? What is actually written?
(Matthew 24:3) While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

In other words, what sign should we look for, indicating your presence, and the end of this present age, cycle, present system?
What is the present age.

The scriptures speaking of the age, is specific to the system at that time. The end of the age is specific to Jesus' coming with his angels - The end.
That's quite clear to me.

I think we disagree because of Bahaullah. You think he is infallible.
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I disagree because I believe that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ, and that means that Jesus is not coming back, but even if Baha'u'llah was not the return of Christ I would know that Jesus is not coming back because Jesus never promised to come back. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. There is not one verse in the Bible wherein Jesus said He was coming back to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

****************************************************

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These prophecies have already been fulfilled, and then Baha’u’llah came with power and great glory.
I agree. So by trying to understand what is written, you are gaining you understanding from where? The Bible. Isn't that true?
The Bible is only one side of the equation. I gain it from the Bible coupled with what has happened to fulfill what is written in the Bible.
Evidently, you don't understand ... You just imagine you do.
I was taught many things. My current understanding is not what I was taught all my life.
I examined the Bible to understand what it was saying, and what was the correct understanding.
So no. I think you just cooked up some strange story.
That's not my story.
Why do you think you have the correct understanding of the Bible just by reading it?
Evidently, you only believe that because you are trying to mesh the scriptures with Bahaullah's viewpoint, but they are clashing.
Baha’u’llah did not comment on these scriptures. It is my own viewpoint.
John 11:11-14
13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazarus has died,
Surely you don't think you are talking to a child younger than five Trailblazer, because those are the only ones gullible enough to swallow that. They don't know any better.
Wait... Bahais actually believe this.

No. I'm not buying it. You don't seriously believe that, do you.? I think this is a good example of clear evidence of deliberately twisting the scriptures, and using interpretation as an excuse to manipulate verse however you want to fit your belief. I believe doing such a thing is wicked.
However, I am willing to have my thinking corrected, so I want to give you an opportunity to show that you are not deliberately trying to manipulate the scriptures for your own purposes.

Because if this is what Bahais are doing, then they fit what Paul said at 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
So please explain the story as it is happening - John 11

Let's start from verse 1.
(John 11:1) Now a man named Lazarus was sick. . .
I imagine you believe Lazarus was spiritually sick too, right?
Yes, I believe that Lazarus was spiritually sick, spiritually dead, but that does not mean he did not also die physically. However, nobody rises from the dead after four days, so that is one reason I know that Lazarus did not rise from the dead,

Below is the spiritual interpretation of the Lazarus resurrection ‘story.’ I believe that the part about the tomb and Mary and Martha is just part of the story that was necessary in order to get to the final punch line in John 11:25-26.

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”

17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.


20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die. He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body.

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The Martha said Yes, I believe in you Jesus: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

When Jesus said: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die He was referring to spiritual death, not physical death, because everyone dies physically.

The following verses are congruent with John 11:25-26 and they refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

See my post here.
See you some time later, when I will respond to the other posts.
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I will answer that post on the other thread, since that is where it originated.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Christians might have the correct understanding of some verses but not is all verses. I can give you many examples. The plain meaning of the verses below is that the world would see Jesus no more because would not be I the world again because Jesus finished the work that God gave Him to do and he ascended to the Father in heaven. So it that was the case, why do most Christians believe that Jesus is going return to the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Then we also have this verse:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

This verse clearly state that Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth about God, yet Christians believe that Jesus came into the world to die on the cross and save them from their sins. But where does Jesus say that is why He came? Paul might say that, but Paul is not Jesus and he contradicts Jesus.
Are you not the same person who said to me, you don't know the Bible that well?
It would help if you knew the Bible as well as you know Bahaullah's teachings.
Sadly you don't, but yet you attempt to speak on the Bible as if you know it.
(Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
Jesus came to earth for two reason, according to the scriptures.

One can't just read a scripture and expect to know and understand the Bible, or have the view that they can interpret it. One must consider all the scriptures.
Paul does not contradict Jesus.
I won't get into the scriptures with you on these claims though, because your interpretation seem to have more authority than the scriptures.

Then we have this verse where Jesus says that His kingdom is not of this world, yet most Christians believe that Jesus is coming back to build the Kingdom of God on earth. Other verses say that Jesus ruled heaven so His kingdom was in heaven. You cannot have it both ways but you want it both ways.
Most Christians? What's a Christian?
All Christians believe that Jesus - the son of man - rules from heaven. So it's clear you are not talking about Christians, but of those mentioned in Bible verses, such as... 2 Timothy 4:3, 4 ; 2 Peter 3:16
Are you going to continue making that mistake? Would it not be better if you allow yourself to be corrected?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The interpreter should be one who is qualified because He has have knowledge from God, or someone He appointed. Jesus never appointed anyone to interpret the Bible. Christians just took it upon themselves to interpret it, and they all believe they have the correct interpretation.
Jesus did appoint persons to impart truths and correct understanding to persons. He always did.
From the day Jesus chose men, and personally taught them (they were in turn to distribute to others - Luke 6:12, 13), to the day Jesus poured out holy spirit, on his disciples (Acts 2), until now (Matthew 24:45), Jesus has appointed - not interpreters - but men appointed by holy spirit, to dispense truth throughout the earth.

That is what dictionaries are for.

That would be great if the Bible was that plain and easy to understand but most of it isn’t. For example, the parables have to be deciphered. Most scriptures are like that, even what Baha’u’llah wrote.

I do not interpret those verses that way. Teaching, reproving, setting things straight, disciplining in righteousness; that refers to our morals, not correcting what is contrary to your view about the Bible meaning.

Do you understand what it means for the Word of God to be alive? It means it has power to affect your soul and spirit.

I do not know what you mean, but I hesitate to consider what Paul wrote as the Word of God; inspired by God is not the same as Word of God.

The Bible cannot literally agree because it is not a person, but a viewpoint or interpretation can be supported by the Bible. Really this is just a matter of semantics.

These are just different ways of saying what amounts to the same thing. Agrees with a viewpoint, supports a viewpoint, these mean the same thing. And a viewpoint is a meaning, what we believe a verse means.

There is no need to argue about this. We are just saying the same thing with different words.

I never meant to imply that the Bible was anything less than Baha’u’llah wrote in that passage, God’s greatest testimony to His creatures. But that does not mean it was God’s direct testimony, it was God’s testimony through men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I have seen those online and I learn from many of them.

I agree. It would have helped them, just as it helps me to connect the Bible prophecies with what others witnessed Baha’u’llah doing when He walked the earth.
Power of discernment is important, isn't it. Those who don't use it, gain nothing.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I could say the same thing about you, that your mind id not being directed by you, but rather by the Bible. ;)

What you do not know is that I know Bird123 from way back... He is not a Bible basher, but he bases his opinions about religion on what is in the Bible.

I do not oppose the Bible, but I believe the dispensations of Moses and Jesus has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Dispensation
  1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
  2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
  3. a divinely appointed order or age:
e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

The gospel of Jesus has not been abrogated, only the Dispensation of Jesus has been abrogated....
That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission is completed, it is completed, as Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Once the Mission has been completed and a religion has fulfilled its purpose for humanity, God sends a new Manifestation, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the present age.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

The new Manifestation always brings the new remedy that is needed for then age in which He appears.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213
That's Bahaullah's, and your own interpretations, which, sad to say, do not agree with the scriptures, at all.
Luke 22:28-30 ; John 14:1-4 ; John 4:34-38 ; Matthew 28:18-20
Doesn't sound like someone whose work is finished.

Consider that in you haste to accept a man's claim, you are dismissing all the scriptures that show something completely different to what you are claiming.
Either Jesus is not telling the truth to his followers, or the work he finished is relative to his earthly assignment. That is in harmony with scriptures, and does not conflict with the others, related to his overall assignment.

Perhaps you have decided that Paul contradicts Jesus , because he confirms the scriptures.
(1 Corinthians 15:22-28) 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Should we discard this part of scripture... Do you think it doesn't belong there?
What about the book of Hebrews... Do you think w should we discard that?
Hebrews 1:2, 3, 8, 13 ; 2:7-9, 16-3:3 ; 4:14-5:10 ; 8:1, 2

(John 5:36) But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me.

@Bird123 I'm not sure of what you are trying to say in your post
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I never said that Christians are inferior. I only stated what I believe about Baha’u’llah.

No, as I told you before, Baha’u’llah did not interpret the Bible verses. I have my own viewpoint, which is based upon what the Baha’i Faith teaches about the end of the old age and the beginning of a new age.

I disagree because I believe that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ, and that means that Jesus is not coming back, but even if Baha'u'llah was not the return of Christ I would know that Jesus is not coming back because Jesus never promised to come back. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. There is not one verse in the Bible wherein Jesus said He was coming back to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

****************************************************

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These prophecies have already been fulfilled, and then Baha’u’llah came with power and great glory.
The Bible is only one side of the equation. I gain it from the Bible coupled with what has happened to fulfill what is written in the Bible.

Why do you think you have the correct understanding of the Bible just by reading it?
Like you, I gain understanding from the Bible - what is written - coupled with what has occurred in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Reading the Bible can help one see when persons are making false claims about what the Bible says, or explains.

Baha’u’llah did not comment on these scriptures. It is my own viewpoint.

Yes, I believe that Lazarus was spiritually sick, spiritually dead, but that does not mean he did not also die physically. However, nobody rises from the dead after four days, so that is one reason I know that Lazarus did not rise from the dead,

Below is the spiritual interpretation of the Lazarus resurrection ‘story.’ I believe that the part about the tomb and Mary and Martha is just part of the story that was necessary in order to get to the final punch line in John 11:25-26.

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”

17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.


20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise: 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Then apparently Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die. He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body.

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The Martha said Yes, I believe in you Jesus: 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

When Jesus said: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die He was referring to spiritual death, not physical death, because everyone dies physically.

The following verses are congruent with John 11:25-26 and they refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


I will answer that post on the other thread, since that is where it originated.
Which part of the reading of John 11, says Lazarus was sick spiritually?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
No, and that is not what I said.

I said: That's correct. And the way God educates humans is by sending Messengers who teach them.

It is humans who are dependent upon God, and that is why God sends Messengers to teach humans.

Why would God DEPEND on messengers to deliver any message? This would make God DEPENDENT on the messengers delivering.

You can't have it both ways.

The correct answer is God is not using messengers. On the other hand, people can talk themselves into being dependent on others for all kinds of things including information. Discovery and also doing for oneself takes work.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
That's Bahaullah's, and your own interpretations, which, sad to say, do not agree with the scriptures, at all.
Luke 22:28-30 ; John 14:1-4 ; John 4:34-38 ; Matthew 28:18-20
Doesn't sound like someone whose work is finished.

Consider that in you haste to accept a man's claim, you are dismissing all the scriptures that show something completely different to what you are claiming.
Either Jesus is not telling the truth to his followers, or the work he finished is relative to his earthly assignment. That is in harmony with scriptures, and does not conflict with the others, related to his overall assignment.

Perhaps you have decided that Paul contradicts Jesus , because he confirms the scriptures.
(1 Corinthians 15:22-28) 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Should we discard this part of scripture... Do you think it doesn't belong there?
What about the book of Hebrews... Do you think w should we discard that?
Hebrews 1:2, 3, 8, 13 ; 2:7-9, 16-3:3 ; 4:14-5:10 ; 8:1, 2

(John 5:36) But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me.

@Bird123 I'm not sure of what you are trying to say in your post

I understand that you do not understand what I am saying. Sometimes I place too much information out there too quickly, confusing others.

Do you ever really question??
I would say discard corinthians 15: 22-28
Why? It reflects mankind all the way and not God.
THINK. Is God a subjecting God??? This person has no clue about God at all.

Subjecting would be a petty thing that mankind holds so dear like ruling and controlling, kingdoms and empires. Look around you. This is mankind. Subjecting is not God. Why? There is no need to subject.

Remember, brains win in the end. Is subjecting others really an intelligent act? All one has to do is look at past Earth history of those who lived by that.

As for John 5:36, I say disregard it as well. Why? It's a sales pitch. Would a child of God who was even close to understanding God say he is greater than another? Do not listen to John. Listen to me for I am greater. One who has more knowledge never has to sell you on it. All they have to do is open their mouth and speak.

As for getting special assignment from God, this is not going to happen. On the other hand, God knows one's nature thus God knows ahead of time when one is placed in this physical world. Still, God is not going to command, request, or intimidate choices. This would defeat a key point in God's great learning system.

In a sense we are all on moving others forward in some way which is what God wants. The interaction between people with the multiple levels of understanding and views widens the view for all. Remember, truth is all around us waiting to be Discovered. A wider view allows one to see and Discover more.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Because God cannot "show up" on Earth Himself.

God cannot write and talk like His Messengers can so God is DEPENDENT upon the Messengers delivering His messages.

It is not God who is DEPENDENT. You are dependent on those messengers to tell you what you want to hear.

People like to make rules on what God can and can't do. God has ways far beyond anything mankind is capable of. There is only one reason God does not show up on Earth. It would defeat a very Good point in God's great learning system.

God is not going to intimidate your choices. Your free choices without intimidation or coercion is an important factor.

That's what I see. It's very Clear!!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is not God who is DEPENDENT. You are dependent on those messengers to tell you what you want to hear.
They do not tell me what I want to hear, they tell me what I need to hear.
People like to make rules on what God can and can't do. God has ways far beyond anything mankind is capable of. There is only one reason God does not show up on Earth. It would defeat a very Good point in God's great learning system.

God is not going to intimidate your choices. Your free choices without intimidation or coercion is an important factor.

That's what I see. It's very Clear!!
God does not interfere with human choices, that is why God sends Messengers that people can choose to accept or reject.

With no Messenger, you cannot know anything about God, because you have no way to know anything about God.

That's what I see. It's very Clear!!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Are you not the same person who said to me, you don't know the Bible that well?
It would help if you knew the Bible as well as you know Bahaullah's teachings.
Sadly you don't, but yet you attempt to speak on the Bible as if you know it.
(Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
Jesus came to earth for two reason, according to the scriptures.

One can't just read a scripture and expect to know and understand the Bible, or have the view that they can interpret it. One must consider all the scriptures.
Paul does not contradict Jesus.
I won't get into the scriptures with you on these claims though, because your interpretation seem to have more authority than the scriptures.

I agree that Jesus came to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many. That is a Baha’i belief.

Paul does contradict Jesus; not always but sometimes.

I see you did what all Christians do, you deflected and started talking about what I don’t know of the Bible instead of responding to the Bible verses I posted (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30).

I know the Bible well enough to know that Jesus never promised to return to earth. I have put it out on many forums asking Christians to send me any verses where Jesus said He was going to return but so far no Christian has ever presented any in seven years.
Most Christians? What's a Christian?
All Christians believe that Jesus - the son of man - rules from heaven. So it's clear you are not talking about Christians, but of those mentioned in Bible verses, such as... 2 Timothy 4:3, 4 ; 2 Peter 3:16
Are you going to continue making that mistake? Would it not be better if you allow yourself to be corrected?
Christians believe that Jesus rules from heaven but most Christians also believe that the resurrected body of Jesus is going to return to earth and rule on earth, except for the JWs who believe that only the spirit of Jesus will return to earth.
Jesus did appoint persons to impart truths and correct understanding to persons. He always did.
From the day Jesus chose men, and personally taught them (they were in turn to distribute to others - Luke 6:12, 13), to the day Jesus poured out holy spirit, on his disciples (Acts 2), until now (Matthew 24:45), Jesus has appointed - not interpreters - but men appointed by holy spirit, to dispense truth throughout the earth.
But those men are not here now, so all we have is the Bible that other men have to interpret. The Holy Spirit does not appoint anyone because it is not a person; it is the Bounty of God.

The passage below explains what Baha’is believe regarding the Holy Spirit is and how the Holy Spirit works. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that comes from the Manifestations of God (Messengers) to humanity. The Holy Spirit reflects upon humans and is associated with their intellectual reality but it does not descend into their bodies as most Christians believe.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate,it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108

Moreover, the Holy Spirit IS NOT a human being, it is not a Person. It is the Bounty of God that is associated with a Person who brings the Holy Spirit to humanity. It appears in splendor when the messenger of God appears, as the sun (God) shines in a mirror and appears in that mirror (Messenger).

In some passages in the Holy Books the Spirit is spoken of, signifying a certain person, as it is currently said in speech and conversation that such a person is an embodied spirit, or he is a personification of mercy and generosity. In this case, it is the light we look at, and not the glass.

In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak.”

Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 108-109
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's Bahaullah's, and your own interpretations, which, sad to say, do not agree with the scriptures, at all.
Luke 22:28-30 ; John 14:1-4 ; John 4:34-38 ; Matthew 28:18-20
Doesn't sound like someone whose work is finished.
Baha’u’llah made no interpretations. My interpretations are as good as yours.

Sounds like someone whose work was finished on earth who went to heaven to prepare a place for you (Christians). Why then do so many Christians believe that will be resurrected to live on earth forever?.
Consider that in you haste to accept a man's claim, you are dismissing all the scriptures that show something completely different to what you are claiming.
Either Jesus is not telling the truth to his followers, or the work he finished is relative to his earthly assignment. That is in harmony with scriptures, and does not conflict with the others, related to his overall assignment.
No, I only dismiss YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. Those verses could mean just about anything. Why do you think that you know the one true meaning?
Perhaps you have decided that Paul contradicts Jesus , because he confirms the scriptures.
(1 Corinthians 15:22-28) 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Should we discard this part of scripture... Do you think it doesn't belong there?
No, but there is an interpretation of those verses that makes sense and precludes people needing to be raised up from physical graves, as most Christians believe, which is literally impossible and unnecessary, since we are given a new body when we die, an incorruptible spiritual body. Besides that, we will have no use for a physical body in heaven because heaven is a purely spiritual world.

Please read the following explanation carefully:

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death, not physical death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus will have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but they will not have eternal life because in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

Eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of physical life, since the physical body cannot live forever. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of the life of the soul, since all souls live forever. Thus all the following Bible verses refer to the eternal life if the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Like you, I gain understanding from the Bible - what is written - coupled with what has occurred in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Reading the Bible can help one see when persons are making false claims about what the Bible says, or explains.
Jesus fulfilled some of the prophecies for the Messiah, but not the prophecies of the end times Messiah. That is explained in this chapter.

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

The Bible prophecies for the end times Messiah and the return of Christ have been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. Reading the Bible and then reading the history surrounding the coming of Baha’u’llah in the 19th century clearly reveals that was the case.
Which part of the reading of John 11, says Lazarus was sick spiritually?
I do not know, but why would it matter? I gave you my interpretation of the verses that are relevant to understanding the main point of that chapter.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I agree that Jesus came to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many. That is a Baha’i belief.

Paul does contradict Jesus; not always but sometimes.

I see you did what all Christians do, you deflected and started talking about what I don’t know of the Bible instead of responding to the Bible verses I posted (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30).

I know the Bible well enough to know that Jesus never promised to return to earth. I have put it out on many forums asking Christians to send me any verses where Jesus said He was going to return but so far no Christian has ever presented any in seven years.

Christians believe that Jesus rules from heaven but most Christians also believe that the resurrected body of Jesus is going to return to earth and rule on earth, except for the JWs who believe that only the spirit of Jesus will return to earth.

But those men are not here now, so all we have is the Bible that other men have to interpret. The Holy Spirit does not appoint anyone because it is not a person; it is the Bounty of God.

The passage below explains what Baha’is believe regarding the Holy Spirit is and how the Holy Spirit works. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that comes from the Manifestations of God (Messengers) to humanity. The Holy Spirit reflects upon humans and is associated with their intellectual reality but it does not descend into their bodies as most Christians believe.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate,it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108

Moreover, the Holy Spirit IS NOT a human being, it is not a Person. It is the Bounty of God that is associated with a Person who brings the Holy Spirit to humanity. It appears in splendor when the messenger of God appears, as the sun (God) shines in a mirror and appears in that mirror (Messenger).

In some passages in the Holy Books the Spirit is spoken of, signifying a certain person, as it is currently said in speech and conversation that such a person is an embodied spirit, or he is a personification of mercy and generosity. In this case, it is the light we look at, and not the glass.

In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak.”

Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 108-109
Does it seem like I defected? I don't repeat conversations, that's all.
If I have been through it with you before, I don't see any benefit of going through it again. Especially when the person puts their interpretation, or someone else's above scripture.
Authority of Scripture
In several ways, Luther's treatment of Scripture was merely an extension of the medieval understanding. The issues of inspiration and validity of the Word of God changed little, if at all, as they passed into Luther's reforming hands. William of Ockham, a medieval thinker who greatly influenced Luther's early academic development, argued frequently for the sole authority of the Word as opposed to natural insight or rational ascent to an understanding of the divine. Luther likewise carried forward much of the medieval understanding of the Word without confrontation from his contemporaries, whether Erasmus, the pope, or the scholastics, since all generally held the same presuppositions regarding the basic role of Scripture as a reliable authority.
But where Luther radically differed from all others was the degree to which he was willing to view Scripture as the ultimate authority. The general understanding had been that the authority of Scripture, though genuine, was supplemented by various elements claimed by the Roman Church. Ockham, for example, although a proponent of the authority of Scripture, presupposed a necessary link between the authority of Scripture and that of the Roman Church. In the preface of his Compendium Errorum Johannis Papae XXII (c. 1334-8), Ockham includes this disclaimer: "If I should have written something in this work which is contrary to Holy Writ or the teachings of the saints, or the assertions of the most holy Church, I submit myself and my words to correction by the Catholic Church - not the Church of malignants, or heretics, or schismatics and their protectors." (Quoted in Wood, 120)
But over time, Luther shed the assumption that a transgression against the authortiy of the Church implied such against the Word, and vica versa. For Luther, Sola Scriptura would become the guiding and primary principle of his reformation. Luther's first break with the Roman Church came during the Leipzig Debate (July 1519) in which he declared agreement with John Hus, who had been condemned 100 years earlier by the Council of Constance. By rejecting the authority of such councils, Luther had prepared the way for his applications of the sole authority of Scripture. Luther found in Galatians 1:8 that no created being is greater than the Word of God, neither Paul, nor angels, nor any other man. This, therefore, would also include the pope himself, who claimed to be the sole interpreter and arbiter of the Word. Luther viewed the papal claim as, "the accursed lie that the pope is the arbiter of Scripture or that the Church has authority over Scripture." (Luther's Works 26.57; Q. in Wood, 123) Luther elsewhere wrote, "The pope boasts that the Christian Church is above the Word of God. No, this is not true! We must be pupils and not aspire to be masters, for the pupil must not be above his master." (LW. 23.231; Q. in Ibid.) Also, "Years ago all the pope's pronouncements were called Christian truth and articles of faith, yet this was simply based on man. And then it happened that people sank into the abyss and lost everything that pertains to the Word of God and Christ. Therefore, we must now declare: 'Pope, council, and doctors, we will not believe you; but we will believe in the Divine Word." (LW. 23.297; Q. in Ibid.)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Baha’u’llah made no interpretations. My interpretations are as good as yours.

Sounds like someone whose work was finished on earth who went to heaven to prepare a place for you (Christians). Why then do so many Christians believe that will be resurrected to live on earth forever?.

No, I only dismiss YOUR interpretation of the scriptures. Those verses could mean just about anything. Why do you think that you know the one true meaning?

No, but there is an interpretation of those verses that makes sense and precludes people needing to be raised up from physical graves, as most Christians believe, which is literally impossible and unnecessary, since we are given a new body when we die, an incorruptible spiritual body. Besides that, we will have no use for a physical body in heaven because heaven is a purely spiritual world.

Please read the following explanation carefully:

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death, not physical death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus will have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but they will not have eternal life because in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

Eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of physical life, since the physical body cannot live forever. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of the life of the soul, since all souls live forever. Thus all the following Bible verses refer to the eternal life if the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
What is a spiritual resurrection, and how does that prevent a person ruling subjects on earth from heaven?

Jesus fulfilled some of the prophecies for the Messiah, but not the prophecies of the end times Messiah. That is explained in this chapter.

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

The Bible prophecies for the end times Messiah and the return of Christ have been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. Reading the Bible and then reading the history surrounding the coming of Baha’u’llah in the 19th century clearly reveals that was the case.

I do not know, but why would it matter? I gave you my interpretation of the verses that are relevant to understanding the main point of that chapter.
Exactly. You interpret things not based on the Bible, but based on what fits Bahau;;ah's teachings. :disappointed:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Does it seem like I defected? I don't repeat conversations, that's all.
If I have been through it with you before, I don't see any benefit of going through it again. Especially when the person puts their interpretation, or someone else's above scripture.
I am sorry that you do not understand that scripture has to be interpreted in order to understand what it means, and when it is interpreted the same scripture will mean different things to different people. That is why Christians do not agree on the meanings of verses in the Bible.

There can be no discussion unless you understand this. It is a logical point.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What is a spiritual resurrection,
A spiritual resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222
and how does that prevent a person ruling subjects on earth from heaven?
It is unrelated to that. Why do you believe that Jesus is going to rule from heaven and how do you think that would actually play out on earth?
Exactly. You interpret things not based on the Bible, but based on what fits Bahaullah's teachings. :disappointed:
I interpret the Bible based upon my understanding of the Bible. My understanding of the Bible is according to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith....

Likewise, you interpret the Bible based upon your understanding of the Bible. Your understanding of the Bible is according to the teachings of Christianity.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
They do not tell me what I want to hear, they tell me what I need to hear.

God does not interfere with human choices, that is why God sends Messengers that people can choose to accept or reject.

With no Messenger, you cannot know anything about God, because you have no way to know anything about God.

That's what I see. It's very Clear!!

I am not near as Helpless as you.

God hides nothing. One can learn everything about God. It stares us all in the face. On the other hand, if one focuses totally on one spot such as messengers, one will be blind to everything but that spot.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. Perhaps that is why so many can not understand where I point. On the other hand, I am in good company since very few really Understand God as well.

You have to let those petty things go and not allow messengers to hold you there. What could they have possibly said that would convince you not to search for God and be satisfied with everything they say?

I think you never really wanted to find God at all. Now after so many years of reciting, you have become comfortable with that box of beliefs. Well, maybe until I placed the Real Truth so it could be seen. Maybe, you are not so comfortable now.

Do you search for Real Truth or do you fight not to change? The journey to the Real Truth never stops for there is always more to Discover.

When God is no longer a Belief, the view gets much much wider.

Do not come to me with mere beliefs. Come to me with MATH!! Everything about God does add up. Where does this leave middle men and messengers? It leaves them Very Lacking.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I am sorry that you do not understand that scripture has to be interpreted in order to understand what it means, and when it is interpreted the same scripture will mean different things to different people. That is why Christians do not agree on the meanings of verses in the Bible.

There can be no discussion unless you understand this. It is a logical point.
Despite the fact that I pointed out to you that factually, an explanation does not need interpreting, you return with such a claim.
I don't need to agree to claims.
I agree with something shown to be factual, or at the least reasonable.
Your claim here is neither factual, nor reasonable, so I don't think any sensible person will understand that.
If something is not clear, or there is no explanation given, then one may see the need to interpret, which may not be the correct interpretation.
Many of the things presented to you, in scripture, are clear. They are explained, and yet, you see the need to turn it into allegory.

Having an honest discussion is impossible with that sort of twisting going on.
It's like trying to play poker with a guy who can change the rules every turn, and he has a million ways to play the game... in his favor, of course.

A spiritual resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

It is unrelated to that. Why do you believe that Jesus is going to rule from heaven and how do you think that would actually play out on earth?

I interpret the Bible based upon my understanding of the Bible. My understanding of the Bible is according to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith....

Likewise, you interpret the Bible based upon your understanding of the Bible. Your understanding of the Bible is according to the teachings of Christianity.
Your contradictions are so many, and so consistent, it is clear to me you are trying too hard to "deal yourself a flush".

Your words... Quote
No, as I told you before, Baha’u’llah did not interpret the Bible verses. I have my own viewpoint, which is based upon what the Baha’i Faith teaches about the end of the old age and the beginning of a new age.
Unquote

Your words... Quote
The Bible does not SAY anything, so the Bible does not say that Baha’u’llah's viewpoint is right, and should be accepted, so those who believe Baha’u’llah's viewpoint to be correct, and him infallible are not doing so based not on the Bible, but on our belief that Baha’u’llah is infallible.
Unquote

Exactly what I said. You interpret the Bible based on your believe in what Bahaullah said, because you believe Bahaullah to be infallible.
You might as well leave the Bible out. That would make more sense to me.
 
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