The Unitarian Problem

shunyadragon said:

I am not a Christian I am a Baha'i.

Click to expand...

To add: I believe the Trinity is descriptive of the spiritual non-physical relationship between God and humanity through evolving Revelation of the word and presence of God and is universal with humanity throughout the millennia. Beyond this God's nature is unknowable absolutely One in identity, and the Source of our physical existence.

Tumah said:

You quoted Psa. 23 that the "Father" is the Shepherd. Here you are claiming that there was no shepherd and that's why G-d later designates a shepherd. You haven't resolved this issue.

At the time of Ezek. 34:8 is the "Father" a Shepherd or is He not?
If He is, than why the claim that there is no shepherd in this verse?
And also, if He is a Shepherd and Eze. 34:23 say that He will still set up a shepherd, then we are left with two shepherds. Who are the flock to follow?

If He's not a Shepherd than what happened to Psa. 23?


Not at all.


This is not a problem for me. The Messiah represents "the Father's" kingdom on earth and his will is that we father the will of the "Father". And in the "Father's" Will that we have a king, we understand that following that king's will is following His. So the answer is, both.




Both of these (the shepherd and king issue) only reinforce my point. If G-d is called our king and David is called our king, than who are we subjects of? Are we subject of the king on earth or the King in heaven?


Isaiah 30:15 says that it's the "Father" so I guess I'll go with that one.

Click to expand...

Who is the Holy One of Israel?
Psalm 16:10.

Redemptionsong said:

Who is the Holy One of Israel?
Psalm 16:10.

Click to expand...

God. In Judaism the Lord is God.

shunyadragon said:

God. In Judaism the Lord is God.

Click to expand...

Psalm 16:10: 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption'.

Can the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, see corruption?

Redemptionsong said:

Psalm 16:10: 'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption'.

Can the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, see corruption?

Click to expand...

Holy One or 'faithful one' in this case would refer to the individual praying. In the Hebrew beliefs it refers to the Resurrection of all faithful Hebrews. In the Hebrew context, and by the way how they recite the verse it is first person.

This is a Jewish vs. Christian problem, and no a Unitarian problem.

shunyadragon said:

Holy One or 'faithful one' in this case would refer to the individual praying. In the Hebrew beliefs it refers to the Resurrection of all faithful Hebrews. In the Hebrew context, and by the way how they recite the verse it is first person.

This is a Jewish vs. Christian problem, and no a Unitarian problem.

Click to expand...

Any passage that shows the Messiah, the Son, to be equal to the Father is a Unitarian problem.

John 5:18: 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

What's also interesting is that both angels and demons recognise Jesus Christ as the Holy One, the 'faithful one'.

Luke 1:35: 'And the angel answered and said unto her [Mary], The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.'

Luke 4:33,34: 'And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out in a loud voice,
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.'

Redemptionsong said:

Any passage that shows the Messiah, the Son, to be equal to the Father is a Unitarian problem.

John 5:18: 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

What's also interesting is that both angels and demons recognise Jesus Christ as the Holy One, the 'faithful one'.

Luke 1:35: 'And the angel answered and said unto her [Mary], The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.'

Luke 4:33,34: 'And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out in a loud voice,
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.'

Click to expand...

Any passage that the Son is not equal to the Father is Trinitarian problem.

John 14:28?" Answer: The phrase “the Father is greater than I”

shunyadragon said:

Any passage that the Son is not equal to the Father is Trinitarian problem.

John 14:28?" Answer: The phrase “the Father is greater than I”

Click to expand...

Your quote cited what Jews believed. John 5:18: 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

My quote is what Jesus said about his relationship to God.

shunyadragon said:

Your quote cited what Jews believed. John 5:18: 'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.'

My quote is what Jesus said about his relationship to God.

Click to expand...

Strangely enough, I don't see those passages where the Son is not equal to the Father as a Trinitarian problem.

The Trintarian position holds that the Son is BOTH fully man and fully God. So it is possible to say that, from the human perspective, the Son is not equal, as your quotation from John 14:28 indicates. Then, of course, I could also cite John 10:30 which says; 'I and my Father are one'.

The Son is subject to the Father, and proceeds from the Father. The really important question is whether we are able to recognise the Father in the Son. If we can, then we are to follow the Son to the Father.

Are there any scriptures that say we should not serve the Son?

Redemptionsong said:

Strangely enough, I don't see those passages where the Son is not equal to the Father as a Trinitarian problem.

Click to expand...

Strange enough?!?!
You are contradicting yourself.

You said, "Any passage that shows the Messiah, the Son, to be equal to the Father is a Unitarian problem."

You gave a passage that gave a Jewish accusation. I gave a passage that demonstrates Jesus is lesser and not equal to God the Father, and now you are back peddling

The Trintarian position holds that the Son is BOTH fully man and fully God. So it is possible to say that, from the human perspective, the Son is not equal, as your quotation from John 14:28 indicates. Then, of course, I could also cite John 10:30 which says; 'I and my Father are one'.

The Son is subject to the Father, and proceeds from the Father. The really important question is whether we are able to recognize the Father in the Son. If we can, then we are to follow the Son to the Father.

Are there any scriptures that say we should not serve the Son?

Click to expand...

The citation DID NOT say from the human perspective. Your presenting a classic Tritheism, with contradictions.

shunyadragon said:

Strange enough?!?!
You are contradicting yourself.

You said, "Any passage that shows the Messiah, the Son, to be equal to the Father is a Unitarian problem."

You gave a passage that gave a Jewish accusation. I gave a passage that demonstrates Jesus is lesser and not equal to God the Father, and now you are back peddling



The citation DID NOT say from the human perspective. Your presenting a classic Tritheism, with contradictions.

Click to expand...

There are no contradictions here; just failure to appreciate the nature of God's Mediator!

Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ, during his earthly ministry, was fully man and fully God. 100% man, and 100% God. The Spirit of God, without measure, dwelt in a sinless human vessel. Trinitarians, therefore, consider Jesus Christ to have been divine.

Unitarians believe that Jesus Christ was 100% man, but not 100% God. Unitarians do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. It follows, quite logically, that any scripture demonstrating the divinity of Jesus Christ becomes a 'Unitarian problem'.

Simply reversing this, or quoting a scripture that demonstrates Jesus' humanity, is not enough to undermine the Trinitarian position. Why? Because Trinitarians see Jesus Christ as BOTH human and divine whilst on earth!

The Jews at the time of Christ were well aware that to call God 'Father' meant that you must be born of God's Spirit. It was the same as claiming to be equal with God in (spiritual) nature.

Redemptionsong said:

I know we share much in common, and I'm very willing to accept correction if you are able to demonstrate my error from scripture!

Your description of the activity of God is much as I understand it. I would like to know more about whether you believe Jesus pre-existed.

Click to expand...

Yes Jesus pre-existed as God.

Redemptionsong said:

I also question your understanding of when the Spirit of God was sent into the world. Was it at birth, or at baptism? I believe the Spirit was sent at baptism.

Click to expand...

The Spirit was indwelling Jesus from birth (per Colossians 1:18 and 2:8-9) but He was further anointed with the Spirit at baptism. (acts 10:38) This was done so Jesus would be indeed "the anointed one" which is Messiah and Jesus said He was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". That is not because Jesus really needed to be baptized; except to fulfill all the will of God. But baptism was for forgiveness and repentance from sins (Mark 1:4) and Jesus had no sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

But the Spirit anointed Jesus after the baptism as a sign that He was really the Messiah and the Son of God.

Redemptionsong said:

My issue with Unitarianism is not the belief in one God. The issue is whether God has come to earth, and whether the Son of God is worthy of worship. I believe Jesus Christ is worthy of worship. This is clearly not the case with Unitarians who claim that only the Father is God, and only the Father is worthy of worship.

Defining what is meant by worship is important, and in answer to this I would say that it means 'to serve from the heart in Spirit and truth'. IMO, if a person does not serve the Son, in Spirit and truth, then a person cannot claim to serve the Father.

Click to expand...

Yes God came to earth as 1st John 3:1-6 states ... the Father was in the world and the world knew Him not. The Father is the only God and Jesus the Son of God was God manifest in human form.

Jesus should be worshiped as the most High God. Jesus claimed to be the Father in John 14:9. Paul says in Philippians 2:11 that when you confess Jesus is Lord you do so to the glory of the Father. That means Jesus is the name of the Father revealed among men. That poses a problem for the trinity because why should the name of "God the Son" glorify "God the Father"? They're two distinct persons right? But if you believe God is only one person then it makes sense. The name of Jesus glorifies the Father because Jesus is the Father manifest.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In Acts 4:12 it's clear there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved. So Jesus is the revealed name of God the Father. That is the name God chose for His human incarnation.

Redemptionsong said:

Well, we can start with that one!

Isaiah 40:22: 'It is he that sitteth on the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:'

Before Pythagoras, and well before Columbus!

Click to expand...

Only the earth is not a circle, it is a sphere.
And the heavens are not like a curtain/tent stretched out over the earth, rather the earth is suspended in the heavens on an orbital path around the sun which itself is one of an enormous number of stars.

danieldemol said:

Only the earth is not a circle, it is a sphere.
And the heavens are not like a curtain/tent stretched out over the earth, rather the earth is suspended in the heavens on an orbital path around the sun which itself is one of an enormous number of stars.

Click to expand...

From the human perspective ... if you went to a perfectly flat area of the world. Let's say a dry lake bed that is as flat as possible in all directions as far as the eye can see. Then you would see the "circle of the earth" that is the circle of the event horizon. Now the scripture says God sits above this circle or everything in view. So, there really is a circle of the earth.

Secondly, we must consider that to the ancients there was no concept of the planet "earth" at all. So when they say the "circle of the earth" they mean the continents rather than the planet. The earth is the land. So they are not in fact saying the planet is flat. They are speaking of the continents which are surrounded by the "river" Oceanus (Greek) or Yam in Hebrew. This in fact we do find to be the case. The mass of the continents Europe, Asia and Africa are indeed surrounded entirely by water as they believed them to be. Are they perfectly circular? No, but that doesn't mean they can't be perceived as being circular or in other words compassed by sea.

In any case you're dealing with poetic language here particularly in the book of Isaiah and trying to say it disproves the Bible. Well no more than I can look at any poetry in modern times that has stars singing or what have not. Things can be poetically correct. I mean to say that the Bible is not meant as a science book. I'm sure God could write a science book so advanced no one could understand it if He chose to do so; but He gave us the Bible a spiritual book for spiritual needs.

So for example to spiritually understand the sky as a curtain or tent to live in etc.

shunyadragon said:

The citation DID NOT say from the human perspective. Your presenting a classic Tritheism, with contradictions.

Click to expand...

It doesn't have to say everything so obviously. That's not it's job. You get an understanding of these things through careful study of the scriptures. It's not tritheism to understand that Jesus human nature was created and therefore not as great as the uncreated nature of God. But since we know humans are not just a physical body but body, soul and spirit according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 then we can know that while Jesus' body was created that doesn't mean His Spirit is created.

Jesus referred to Himself as the temple in John 2:19. So He claimed to have God dwelling in Him and Col. 2:8-9 tells us the fullness of the divine nature was dwelling in Him "bodily".

74x12 said:

In any case you're dealing with poetic language here particularly in the book of Isaiah and trying to say it disproves the Bible.

Click to expand...

The Bible here contains the beliefs the ancient Jews had about the nature of the earth, which suggests to me that it was not intended to be non-factual poetry.

Hebrew astronomy - Wikipedia

But if the bible can be dismissed as non-factual poetry wherever it disagrees with science we can dismiss all of genesis as poetry, in which case evolution is the source of man, and there is no literal fall requiring Jesus atonement for salvation etc

Redemptionsong said:

Can you be a Unitarian and a Christian?

Click to expand...

They are two different religions. Can you be both a republican and a democrat?

74x12 said:

It doesn't have to say everything so obviously. That's not it's job. You get an understanding of these things through careful study of the scriptures. It's not tritheism to understand that Jesus human nature was created and therefore not as great as the uncreated nature of God. But since we know humans are not just a physical body but body, soul and spirit according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 then we can know that while Jesus' body was created that doesn't mean His Spirit is created.

Jesus referred to Himself as the temple in John 2:19. So He claimed to have God dwelling in Him and Col. 2:8-9 tells us the fullness of the divine nature was dwelling in Him "bodily".

Click to expand...

The problem of your claim of 'understanding' is too subjective, and yes, results in many divisions in Christianity, and the lack of definitive support in the Tanakh.

God dwelling in Jesus Christ is nit the same as Jesus Christ being the incarnate Son of God in a Trinitarian belief. All the strict Monotheist religions of Judaism, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith believe God dwells in the chosen Messiah.

danieldemol said:

Only the earth is not a circle, it is a sphere.
And the heavens are not like a curtain/tent stretched out over the earth, rather the earth is suspended in the heavens on an orbital path around the sun which itself is one of an enormous number of stars.

Click to expand...

You're speaking the language of the twenty-first century. Isaiah was speaking 700 years before the birth of Christ, and he gives the perspective of a man surveying his horizons. There is absolutely no indication from the Bible that people thought the earth was flat!

IndigoChild5559 said:

They are two different religions. Can you be both a republican and a democrat?

Click to expand...

I was shown a website called the Unitarian Christian Association. It strikes me that this is a contradiction in terms, given that Christians believe in the deity of Christ.