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Why do Christians worship Mary?

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logician

Well-Known Member
KPereira said:
*applauds* Couldn't have put that better myself. If you are an atheist, you take the chance that there is a God out there and you are ignoring Him. If you are apart of a religion, and there is no God, what harm have you done? You have spent your life worshipping something that not only betters your life, but the lives of others. If I could see what happens when I die, and there is only a black void...nothingness...I would still worship God. Athiests look at God from a scientific perspective, not realizing that God is so much more than something that can be understood. God gives us hope and strength...something to believe in. I have an athiest friend. Whenever we have a test at school, he says 'Kyle, pray to your God for me'. Well...if he truly didn't believe there was a God, why would he ask that? That one sentence gave him hope. How better is it to say 'Please God, help me through this!' than 'There is nobody who can help me!'. God gives us something to believe in, that extra bit of strength to overcome whatever happens to us in our lives. Look at God from a scientific perspective, but you are missing the whole point of it all.

Actually, the opposite is true, wasting much of your life worshipping a delusion can only be considered to be a form of insanity. Give me free thought and rationality any day over dogma and repetitive ritual. The search for truth will set you free, letting others determine what is "truth" only binds you in chains.
 
wanderer085 said:
Actually, the opposite is true, wasting much of your life worshipping a delusion can only be considered to be a form of insanity. Give me free thought and rationality any day over dogma and repetitive ritual. The search for truth will set you free, letting others determine what is "truth" only binds you in chains.

"Give me free thought and rationality." God did, thank him when you see him
 

KPereira

Member
wanderer085 said:
Actually, the opposite is true, wasting much of your life worshipping a delusion can only be considered to be a form of insanity. Give me free thought and rationality any day over dogma and repetitive ritual. The search for truth will set you free, letting others determine what is "truth" only binds you in chains.

Are you claiming that everyone who follows a religion is insane? You want free thought and rationality...that came from God, Himself. Worshipping God is more than going to Church and going through the motions. Worshipping God is doing good things for others...a homeless man getting a lucky break...a starving family getting something to eat...a baby being born. God is in all those things. You think God doesn't exist because He can't be explained with chemical reactions and mathematical formulas. There is still tons of stuff on Earth that Science can't explain - does that mean they don't exist? To worship God is to be loved by something greater than you out there. It makes no sense that the universe appeared out of thin air. You can't understand something and it kills you. You look at the world with the eyes that everything can be explained...everything just happened by chance. The world is so much more than that. I would rather have a world filled with love and tolerance than a cold world where everything must be scrutinized under a microscope. Give me one good reason not to follow anything that enriches your life with a great spiritual power.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
" It makes no sense that the universe appeared out of thin air"

NOT an intelligent statement and certainly untrue, string theory now predicts an infinite multiverse with matter and energy existing forever.

You don't need a god in that scenario.
 
@ wanderer

someone who emphasizes observable facts and excludes metaphysical speculation about origins or ultimate causes
of or relating to or characteristic of rationalism; "rationalist philosophy

You claim to be a Rationalist yet your speaking on theories, What rationalist bases thesis and "fact" on theories alone, the string thoery suggests of a 5 + dimension yet beyond the "big bang" and its "ripples" theres no other suggestion of the String theory being possible. The string theory is just that a theory , you are beliving something with less documented in history then God within hundreds of other theories that arent even remotly related and more contridictory then anything else in history, only one or 2 combinations of theorys can be accurate together, for the most part...


Major Flaws in String Theory for all who dont pay attention and want to ramble on about it.

particle with imaginary mass, called the tachyon

In quantum field theory, a tachyon is a quantum of a field—usually a scalar field—whose squared mass is negative. The existence of such a particle implies the instability of the field vacuum; the field is at a local maximum rather than a local minimum of its potential energy, much like a ball at the top of a hill. A very small impulse will lead the field to roll down with exponentially increasing amplitudes: it will induce tachyon condensation. The Higgs mechanism is an elementary example, but it is important to realize that once the tachyonic field reaches the minimum of the potential, its quanta are not tachyons anymore but rather Higgs bosons that have a positive mass-squared.
Even for tachyonic quantum fields, the field operators at spacelike separated points still commute (or anticommute), thus preserving causality.
Tachyons arise in many versions of string theory. In general, string theory states that what we see as "particles"—electrons, photons, gravitons and so forth—are actually different vibrational states of the same underlying string. The mass of the particle can be deduced from the vibrations which the string exhibits; roughly speaking, the mass depends upon the "note" which the string sounds. Tachyons frequently appear in the spectrum of permissible string states, in the sense that some states have negative mass-squared, and therefore imaginary mass. If the tachyon appears as a vibrational mode of an open string, this signals an instability of the underlying D-brane system to which the string is attached. The system will then decay to a state of closed strings and/or stable D-branes. If the tachyon is a closed string vibrational mode, this indicates an instability in spacetime itself. Generally, it is not known what this system will decay to. However, if the closed string tachyon is localized around a spacetime singularity the endpoint of the decay process will often have the singularity resolved.

even the part of string theory that is understood is internally inconsistent. This aspect of the theory relies on a series expansion, an infinite number of terms that one is supposed to sum together to get a result. Whereas each of the terms in the series is probably finite, their sum is almost certainly infinite. String theorists actually consider this inconsistency to be a virtue, because otherwise they would have an infinite number of consistent theories of gravity on their hands (one for each way of wrapping up six dimensions), with no principle for choosing among them.


String theory is at the moment the only advanced approach to a unification of all interactions, including gravity. But, in spite of the more than thirty years of its existence, it does not make any empirically testable predictions, and it is completely unknown which physically interpretable principles could form the basis of string theory. At the moment, "string theory" is no theory at all, but rather a labyrinthic structure of mathematical procedures and intuitions. The only motivations for string theory consist in the mutual incompatibility of the standard model of quantum field theory and of general relativity as well as in the metaphysics of the unification program of physics, aimed at a final unified theory of all interactions, including gravity.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
The string "theory" so far has not been disproven, all god concepts come from the mythology and emotional framework of man by definition.
 
wanderer085 said:
The string "theory" so far has not been disproven, all god concepts come from the mythology and emotional framework of man by definition.

The Christian faith has more then a Historical Backround which even an atheist cant deny (but try's to) some of the overwhelming evidence. Yet the string theory is as much "myth" as religion in the sence. String theory has not yet been "DISPROVEN" doesnt make it Fact becasue for the same matter, God has been remained for some one of the most looked for answers and has as well yet to be "disproven" by any terms. You yourself hold "faith" in a "myth" somethign that has not yet to be proven as do Christians and the religious in general Hold faith in there Religion which to them has all the backround it needs but most importantly thats what faith is.

You dont know weather "String theory" is possible but at cases ins tudy it can seem more farfetched then the christian faith.


Faith = complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"

so you yourself my frined "atheist" "rationalist " HOLD YOUR OWN FAITH to the string theory by definition.

and if you think for one second the String "theory" doesnt have its own Framework concept created by Man, then obviously you dont understand theory's and Hypothesis in general.

lets look at what reliogion and string theory both do as well.

string theorists are trying to understand our world “by going beyond it” [into higher dimensions or othr dimensions ] sounds vaguely fimiliar to me ...religion as well goes into a higher dimension as a form to understand our world and creation...

“Science and Religion Share Fascination in Things Unseen”.
 

KPereira

Member
"In quantum field theory, a tachyon is a quantum of a field—usually a scalar field—whose squared mass is negative"

Whose squared mass is negative :confused:? A positive times itself is a positive. A negative times itself is positive as well (and that's not even possible because you can't have negative mass). Am I missing something?

EDIT: (found a good site) http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae257.cfm

Dont tell me you would rather believe in a particle with an imaginary mass, than what you consider an 'imaginary', loving, God who we can turn to in times of need.
 

KPereira

Member
ApologeticsCatholic said:
"In quantum field theory, a tachyon is a quantum of a field—usually a scalar field—whose squared mass is negative"

Hence the problem with the string theory and i am defending the christian faith not denying it ( if your statment was refernced to me.)

and i am not beliveing

No, ApologeticsCatholic, that wasn't directed to you, but to wanderer. Sorry, I should have made that a bit more clear. Sorry for the mix up.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
I didnt read the thread from the beginning...But what does quantum mech. doing in such a thread??
I thought the thread was asking why Christians worship Mary!!
 

KPereira

Member
True enough. The fact of the matter is that Christians don't really 'worship' her, per se. Christians think she is extremely important as the mother of Jesus Christ...but to worship on the same level as Jesus? No...not really.

Wanderer...

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." ~Albert Einstein

By living a God-fearing life, I believe that just about everything is a miracle, created by God Himself. You think nothing is a miracle...just science. You don't see the magic in the world. I would view a baby being born as the product of love between two people...a gift from God. You view it as male and female gametes combining to form a human embryo. Which is more magical?

What a cold life to live. You believe that people who follow religions are simply ignorant. I do realize that science is explaining the things that are happening around us. But does that mean that we should abandon God altogether, the very same figure which millions upon millions pray to each day for that extra bit of strength to get to the next day? What kind of horrible monster would do that to people...take away their hope? If you had scientific proof that God didn't exist, from what I know of you, I know you wouldn't hesitate to make that information public. Why would you do that to people? Crush the faith of millions just to say 'Ha, I'm right'. I sincerely pray for you that you one day discover the magic of religion. You look at it from the wrong perspective and that leads to your one-mindedness. If this 'string theory' is eventually proven...gloat that you are right all you want, but I'll continue to pray to God.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
KPereira said:
By living a God-fearing life, I believe that just about everything is a miracle, created by God Himself. You think nothing is a miracle...just science. You don't see the magic in the world. I would view a baby being born as the product of love between two people...a gift from God. You view it as male and female gametes combining to form a human embryo. Which is more magical?

What a cold life to live. You believe that people who follow religions are simply ignorant. I do realize that science is explaining the things that are happening around us. But does that mean that we should abandon God altogether, the very same figure which millions upon millions pray to each day for that extra bit of strength to get to the next day? What kind of horrible monster would do that to people...take away their hope? If you had scientific proof that God didn't exist, from what I know of you, I know you wouldn't hesitate to make that information public. Why would you do that to people? Crush the faith of millions just to say 'Ha, I'm right'. I sincerely pray for you that you one day discover the magic of religion. You look at it from the wrong perspective and that leads to your one-mindedness. If this 'string theory' is eventually proven...gloat that you are right all you want, but I'll continue to pray to God.

the idea of not having a God really freaks me out...I can't imagine how i would live in this world knowing that there is no ultimet power that controls it?
how can I live my life feeling so unsecure and lonely??

If I'm in danger, I know that there is a God that is protecting me now, and everything is in his hand, so even if I'm hurt, I still feel safe and secure, cuz I believe and have a faith to the most powerfull....God..

About the string theory, I dont really know what brought it to the conversation, but i know that theoritically, it can be aperfect theory to describe everything...But however, we need a very complicated (we don't even know yet) mathimatics in order to formulate it, and moreover, it has many constraints that are not proved to be existing...thats how it's not accepted as a unified theory yet...but who knows!

thnx, and sorry for interrupting
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954.

The Quotable Einstein
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

"From a correspondence between Ensign Guy H. Raner and Albert Einstein in 1945 and 1949. Einstein responds to the accusation that he was converted by a Jesuit priest: "I have never talked to a Jesuit prest in my life. I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one."
 

logician

Well-Known Member
KPereira said:
. I sincerely pray for you that you one day discover the magic of religion. .

LOL, I was a Christian during most of my youth and heard enought preachin to last most people 2 lifetimes.

The only "magic" I have found is in rationalism and freethought, not religious dogma.
 

Kcnorwood

Well-Known Member
The christians needed a female detiy to help convert the Pagans with them having femine Gods it was another way to help them convert. Hence Mary.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Kcnorwood said:
The christians needed a female detiy to help convert the Pagans with them having femine Gods it was another way to help them convert. Hence Mary.

Or it could be that God pours his presence to all and not just Christians. Which means that God just grabbed what already existed (which he does all the time) to make it his own.
 

Kcnorwood

Well-Known Member
No, read your history books The catholics called her the Queen of Heaven.
The bible never mentioned her therefore she was manmade.
 
Kcnorwood said:
No, read your history books The catholics called her the Queen of Heaven.
The bible never mentioned her therefore she was manmade.

sorry for the delay been busy

Bible never mentioned mary?



In refutation of the claimed silence regarding Mary in the New Testament, it must be noted that the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned by name 20 times in the New Testament: Matthew 1:16; Matthew 1:18; Matthew 1:20; Matthew 2:11; Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Luke 1:27; Luke 1:30; Luke 1:34; Luke 1:38; Luke 1:39; Luke 1:41; Luke 1:46; Luke 1:56; Luke 2:5; Luke 2:16; Luke 2:19; Luke 2:34; John 19:25; Acts 1:14

Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us


"And going into the house they [the Magi] saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.



"...but when the designated time had come, God sent forth his Son born of a woman, born under the law, to deliver from the law those who were subjected to it, so that we might receive our status as adopted sons..."

"You, my brothers, are children of the promise, as Isaac was. But just as in those days the son born in nature's course persecuted the one whose birth was in the realm of the spirit, so do we find it now."


31 Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him.
32 A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside asking for you."
33 And he replied, "Who are my mother and brothers?"
34 And looking at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother" (Mark 3:31-35


He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.
2 On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, "Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands!
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
4 Then Jesus said to them, "Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house."
5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them.
6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.



how is mary not mentioned in the bible? :shrug:


Furthermore, if we look at the places where Mary does receive a mention in Scripture, we note that these are all critical points in the life and ministry of her Son, Jesus: the annunciation (Luke 1:27 ff), the visitation (Luke 39-45) where Mary is Scripturally exalted as the Mother of God :

“But why am I so favoured that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"




-the birth of Jesus,(Luke 2:7) the presentation in the Temple (Luke 2:22), the first public miracle of Jesus (John ), the death of Jesus on the Cross (John 19:25). Mary was with Jesus from His virginal conception until His death on the Cross, at all the critical moments in His earthly life. Note also that in some of these places Mary is not referred to by name, but by the title “Mother of Jesus” for example at the start of Jesus’ public ministry in John 2, or where she is designated the Queen of Heaven, as in Revelation 12:1:
“Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”​
Not forgetting the all-important prophecy from Genesis 3:15: I shall put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers:; he will bruise your head, and you will strike his heel.”

In contrast, Adam gets only 7 mentions in the New Testament: Luke 3:38; Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 1 Corinthians 15:45 ; 1 Timothy 2:13; 1 Timothy 2:14; Jude 14 and Eve gets only 2 mentions, in 1 Timothy 2:13 and 1 Timothy 2:14. Yet no one would deny the significance of Adam and Eve in the history of salvation.

We could also go into detail on the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 regarding the virgin birth, but I would like instead to point out another verse regarding Our Lady and the incarnation of Jesus which is often overlooked. This reference to Mary in the Old Testament is Jeremiah 31:22:
For the Lord shall create a new thing in the earth; a woman shall compass a man

This verse has been used even by non—Catholic commentators in the past in reference to the Virginal Conception of Christ. As examples, I cite from two celebrated (non-Catholic ) commentators of previous centuries, Matthew Henry and A. Fausset.


The following is from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on Jeremiah 31:
"Many good interpreters understand this new thing created in that land to be the incarnation of Christ, which God an eye to in bringing them back to that land, and which had sometimes been given them for a sign, Isa. 7:14; 9:6. A woman, the virgin Mary, enclosed in her womb the Mighty One; for so Geber, the word here used, signifies; and God is called Gibbor, the Mighty God (ch. 32:18), as also is Christ in Isa. 9:6, where his incarnation is spoken of, as it is supposed to be here. He is El-Gibbor, the mighty God. Let this assure them that God would not cast off this people, for that blessing was to be among them, Isa. 65:8."
(From the Matthew Henry (d.1714) Commentary on Jeremiah 31)

"But the Christian fathers (Augustine, &c.) almost unanimously interpreted it of the Virgin Mary compassing Christ in her womb. This view is favored:--
  • (1) By the connection; it gives a reason why the exiles should desire a return to their country, namely, because Christ was conceived there.
  • (2) The word "created" implies a divine power put forth in the creation of a body in the Virgin's womb by the Holy Ghost for the second Adam, such as was exerted in creating the first Adam ( Luk 1:35 Hbr 10:5 ).
  • (3) The phrase, "a new thing," something unprecedented; a man whose like had never existed before, at once God and man; a mother out of the ordinary course of nature, at once mother and virgin. An extraordinary mode of generation; one conceived by the Holy Ghost without man.
  • (4) The specification "in the land" (not "earth," as English Version), namely, of Judah, where probably Christ was conceived, in Hebron (compare Luk 1:39, 42, 44 , with Jos 21:11 ) or else in Nazareth, "in the territory" of Israel, to whom Jer 31:5, 6, 15, 18, 21 refer; His birth was at Beth-lehem ( Mic 5:2 Mat 2:5, 6 ). As the place of His nativity, and of His being reared ( Mat 2:23 ), and of His preaching ( Hag 2:7 Mal 3:1 ), are specified, so it is likely the Holy Spirit designated the place of His being conceived.
  • (5) The Hebrew for "woman" implies an individual, as the Virgin Mary, rather than a collection of persons.
  • (6) The restoration of Israel is grounded on God's covenant in Christ, to whom, therefore, allusion is naturally made as the foundation of Israel's hope (compare Isa 7:14 ). The Virgin Mary's conception of Messiah in the womb answers to the "Virgin of Israel" (therefore so called, Jer 31:21 ), that is, Israel and her sons at their final restoration, receiving Jesus as Messiah ( Zec 12:10 ).
  • (7) The reference to the conception of the child Messiah accords with the mention of the massacre of "children" referred to in Jer 31:15 (compare Mat 2:17 ).
  • (8) The Hebrew for "man" is properly "mighty man," a term applied to God ( Deu 10:17 ); and to Christ ( Zec 13:7 ; compare Psa 45:3 Isa 9:6 )
Epiphanius laid down the rule: "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary" (ten Marian medeis prosknueito). Nonetheless the same Epiphanius abounds in the praises of the Virgin Mother, and he believed that there was some mysterious dispensation with regard to her death implied in the words of Revelations 12:14: "And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the desert unto her place." Certain it is, in any case, that such Fathers as St. Ambrose and St. Jerome, partly inspired with admiration for the ascetic ideals of a life of virginity and partly groping their way to a clearer understanding of all that was involved in the mystery of the Incarnation, began to speak of the Blessed Virgin as the model of all virtue and the ideal of sinlessness. Several striking passages of this kind have been collected.
  • "In heaven", St. Ambrose tells us, "she leads the choirs of virgin souls; with her the consecrated virgins will one day be numbered."
  • St. Jerome (Ep. xxxix, Migne, P. L., XXII, 472) already foreshadows that conception of Mary as mother of the human race which was to animate so powerfully the devotion of a later age.
  • St. Augustine in a famous passage (De nat. et gratis, 36) proclaims Mary's unique privilege of sinlessness.
In St.Gregory of Nazianzen's sermon on the martyr St. Cyprian (P.G., XXXV, 1181) we have an account of the maiden Justina, who invoked the Blessed Virgin to preserve her virginity.




 
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