• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Forgotten Kingdom

Neuropteron

Active Member
Around 1030 BCE the kingdom of Judah enjoyed great stability because of the Davidic dynasty. Eventually however it aligned itself with the Northern Kingdom in their gross moral corruption and acts of rebelliousness towards their God Jehovah, they thus lost their God given prosperity.

Skipping over a lot of history we come to the removal of Israels last king Zedekiah (Ez 25:26) "your day has come... wicked chieftain...take of the crown...until the one who has the legal right comes".

The legal right to what ?
Following the context of this prophesy, it would have to involve the covenant made with David for a Kingdom.

The next logical question is who would receive the legal right for this kingdom ?

In a vision Daniel saw :"someone like a son of man...to him were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations...should all serve him (Dan 7:13).
This "son of man", also called the "Messiah" Heb anointed, or Gr Khristos (Christ) was foretold to come at a specific time in the future -albeit in cryptic terms- sufficiently clear nonetheless to incite faithful Jews to search for "the king of the Jews" at the time of Jesus birth.

Mary was told "he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom"
[Note:house of Jacob, father of the 12 tribes of Israel, later described as "spiritual Israel"]
Shepherd were told by angels: for today there was born to you ...a savior who is Christ...[technically will become Christ](Lu 2:11).

Following Jesus baptism by John it was said: "The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God has drawn near"(Mt 10:7).

Then, after corroborating evidence given by Jesus confirming that he was the promised messiah, Jesus was killed.
from a physical point of view, it seems that hope of this promised Kingdom ended with the death of the promised "successor of David".

God however is not physical and the kingdom of God was always meant to be spiritual. Thus the death of Christ proved to be a catalyst not a hindrance to God's purpose to set up a Kingdom with Jesus as King in heaven.

According to the scriptures this means: the Kingdom is now in place preparing to rule over the earth.

Is this alleged heavenly activity mentioned on earth today ?
Yes, at times it is. Some serious discussions on this subject are sometimes mentioned by fringe christian religions.
Mainstream Christian religion however, mention the kingdom only as a residue of more important doctrines and has been relegated to an emotional based artifact of little importance. Thus, by and large faithful mainstream Christians have no concrete concept of what the kingdom is, or what it will do. If they have, it's not from their clergy.

Is it important ?
If the kingdom of God truly is the long awaited solution to all of mankins problems and will remove all man-made government and unrighteousness at Armageddon, I think it is.

As a christian shouldn't the fact that Jesus made it clear that it is a central Christian doctrine, make it important?
Mat 6:33 "keep on seeking first the kingdom...and all other things will be added to you".

Or rather do you think its a mythical allegory of internal personal bliss ?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
New Around 1030 BCE the kingdom of Judah enjoyed great stability because of the Davidic dynasty. Eventually however it aligned itself with the Northern Kingdom in their gross moral corruption and acts of rebelliousness towards their God Jehovah, they thus lost their God given prosperity
Ah the prosperity gospel.

All I can really say is that if bible based society is the cause of prosperity the Romans of Jesus day must have been saints lol.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Mainstream Christian religion however, mention the kingdom only as a residue of more important doctrines and has been relegated to an emotional based artifact of little importance. Thus, by and large faithful mainstream Christians have no concrete concept of what the kingdom is, or what it will do. If they have, it's not from their clergy.

How do you know that?

Have you found the Kingdom? Are you in it?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Mainstream Christian religion however, mention the kingdom only as a residue of more important doctrines and has been relegated to an emotional based artifact of little importance. Thus, by and large faithful mainstream Christians have no concrete concept of what the kingdom is, or what it will do. If they have, it's not from their clergy.

Speak for yourself. On what grounds do you understand religious beliefs found wanting as to the Kingdom of God?

The Kingdom of God, "is the effective but mysterious action of God in the universe and in the tangle of human events," all "the righteous on earth, including those who do not know Christ and his Church and who, under the influence of grace seek God with a sincere heart, are called to build the Kingdom of God, cooperating with the Lord who is its first and decisive architect."
Jesus proclaimed, not himself, but the Kingdom of God, inaugurated on earth with Jesus, the 'now but not yet' of the Kingdom.
6. the Kingdom of God is in the world, and first of all in man, who lives and works in the world. The Christian knows that with his commitment for the progress of history and with the help of God's grace he cooperates in the growth of the Kingdom, towards the historical and eschatological fulfillment of the plan of Divine Providence.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
Speak for yourself. On what grounds do you understand religious beliefs found wanting as to the Kingdom of God?

The Kingdom of God, "is the effective but mysterious action of God .

Hi,
Mainstream religion is lacking by not understanding the major doctrines taught by Christ. The importance, definition and implementation of the Kingdom of God is clearly explained in the bible. There is nothing mysterious about it. I agree that it's a it's a mystery to them, because they do not understand it.
Cheers.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
How do you know that?

Have you found the Kingdom? Are you in it?

The kingdom of God is fully explained in the bible, it's not hidden,(although some are trying to hide it), all we have to do is read about it in God's word.

I'm not sure what you mean by "are you in it?" If your asking if i'm part of the governmental structure of the kingdom the answer is no, since the kingdom is in heaven.

cheers.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The kingdom of God is fully explained in the bible, it's not hidden,(although some are trying to hide it), all we have to do is read about it in God's word.

I'm not sure what you mean by "are you in it?" If your asking if i'm part of the governmental structure of the kingdom the answer is no, since the kingdom is in heaven.

cheers.

I know we learn about the Kingdom of God in the Bible but how do you know what the main stream churches are teaching or not about the Kingdom?
So is the governmental structure of the kingdom actually the kingdom? and is that kingdom actually in heaven?
Are the citizens of the kingdom on earth a part of the kingdom?
Are the Old Testament saints going to be in the Kingdom of God?
What do these verses mean if the Kingdom of God is only in heaven?
Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Rev 1:5................To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
 
Last edited:

Neuropteron

Active Member
I know we learn about the Kingdom of God in the Bible but how do you know what the main stream churches are teaching or not about the Kingdom?
So is the governmental structure of the kingdom actually the kingdom? and is that kingdom actually in heaven?
Are the citizens of the kingdom on earth a part of the kingdom?
Are the Old Testament saints going to be in the Kingdom of God?
What do these verses mean if the Kingdom of God is only in heaven?
Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Rev 1:5................To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Hi,
The ruling part of God's Kingdom is in heaven.
They will rule over the earth.
Rev 5:10 "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth".

Cheers.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I know we learn about the Kingdom of God in the Bible but how do you know what the main stream churches are teaching or not about the Kingdom?

I was raised in Christendom and grew up hearing about the Kingdom of God, but not knowing what it was. References were always very vague, like no one could quite put their finger on it. Did Jesus teach it as a vague concept? What was the Lord's Prayer about? I had no idea what I was praying for....do you?
Did the Hebrew scriptures make reference to it as something that would "come" in the future? Yes! Messiah's earthly rulership was eagerly anticipated by the ancient men and women of faith.

So is the governmental structure of the kingdom actually the kingdom? and is that kingdom actually in heaven?

I understand that the Bible itself refers to the Kingdom as a government of God that will eventually rule over the whole earth. Daniel 2:44 indicates that this Kingdom will "come" with great power, destroying all corrupt human governments and replacing them with his own. So yes, the Kingdom is an actual government.

Are the citizens of the kingdom on earth a part of the kingdom?

Like all governments, the Kingdom has a prime Ruler (Jesus Christ) who is supported by those who assist him in his administration.
The Bible identifies the first Christians as those who would occupy rulership and priestly positions, chosen by God and eventually taken to heaven to fulfill their assignment. Since the Bible says that these ones "will be rulers and priests" (Revelation 20:6) it is apparent that the Kingdom does not rule the earth until all parties are in heaven. The Bible indicates that this will take place when Jesus returns. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

Are the Old Testament saints going to be in the Kingdom of God?

Like the precedents set in Israel, God ruled them from heaven but had appointed administrators on earth. Moses and the other prophets supported God's Sovereign rulership, and the priesthood served to assist the High Priest in leading the nation in worship at the Temple. All these were pictorial representations of spiritual things in heaven.
The ancient ones looked forward to that rulership on earth.

Hebrews 11:13-16.....
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. 15 And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city." (ASV)

The ones chosen for rulership in heaven were those who were taken into the "new covenant" which was inaugurated by Jesus on the night before his death.
What is pictured in John's Revelation is that "city coming down out of heaven" to rule over mankind. (Revelation 21:2)
Just as God used his ancient servants to instruct his people, I believe that these ancient ones will serve God as part of the "new earth", whilst Jesus and his co-rulers make up the "new heavens". (2 Peter 3:13)

What do these verses mean if the Kingdom of God is only in heaven?
Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

There are two ways to "enter the Kingdom, but only one "door"....that is Jesus Christ.
As the very foundations of God's Kingdom, (Revelation 21:14 Revelation 14:1-5) the apostles and those who join them in heaven as "the chosen ones" (and first fruits) were the first ones to 'come out of that darkness and into the light'.
More were to come, but not all of Christ's followers will end up in heaven. A great crowd of Jesus' disciples will survive the "great tribulation" to become the nucleus of the "new earth". (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) These will be the subjects of God's Kingdom and will serve God in his earthly courtyards, now cleansed and ready for the general resurrection of the dead to begin. (John 5:28-29)


That is a bit of an unfortunate rendering IMO.
The Greek interlinear renders that verse...

"The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone takes vigorous steps to enter it."

No one can "force" their way into the Kingdom....they have to be invited and to take "vigorous steps" in order to qualify for entry. (John 6:65; Luke 13:24)


Rev 1:5................To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Yes...this is for those with the heavenly calling (Hebrews 3:1)...those who will serve as priests under Jesus as High Priest in heaven, for humankind on earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Yes again...."a royal priesthood", made up of those who are chosen by God to serve sinful humanity on earth. There are no sinners in heaven, but all of mankind will benefit from the Kingdom's rule of 1,000 years, with an appointed priesthood helping to undo all the damage that Adam brought upon his children back in Eden.

All of the Christian scriptures were written primarily by, and for, those of the anointed rulers who will join Jesus in heaven, but the Revelation identifies another group of infinite number who will survive the end of this present world system. I hope to be one of those as I have no anointing for heaven......my home is here on earth, and this is where I hope to live forever....in the paradise conditions that God provided for our first parents.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The kingdom of God is fully explained in the bible, it's not hidden,(although some are trying to hide it), all we have to do is read about it in God's word.

I'm not sure what you mean by "are you in it?" If your asking if i'm part of the governmental structure of the kingdom the answer is no, since the kingdom is in heaven.

cheers.

Why is the Government of a Kingdom defined as the Kingdom by the Watch Tower?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hi,
The ruling part of God's Kingdom is in heaven.
They will rule over the earth.
Rev 5:10 "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth".

Cheers.

How do you know that is speaking of only the 144,000?
Do you know that the word translated "over" can also be translated as "on"?
In the translation I looked up it said that some manuscripts have "they reign". Do you think that could be the correct one considering the following quote?
Romans 5:17 "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"
The Christians in Peter's day were a holy nation and a royal priesthood after all.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Maybe this is what Jesus meant when He said that the Kingdom of God is amongst you.
Luke 17:20 "The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is, or ‘There it is. For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
When I read parables of the Kingdom it does seem to have been on earth from the time of Jesus and to grow from that point on.
Matt 13:31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

33 He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

Do you think that Jesus has been King over this nation of priests on earth from the time He ascended and received the Kingdom from the Ancient of Days as in Daniel 7:13,14 ?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was raised in Christendom and grew up hearing about the Kingdom of God, but not knowing what it was. References were always very vague, like no one could quite put their finger on it. Did Jesus teach it as a vague concept? What was the Lord's Prayer about? I had no idea what I was praying for....do you?
Did the Hebrew scriptures make reference to it as something that would "come" in the future? Yes! Messiah's earthly rulership was eagerly anticipated by the ancient men and women of faith.



I understand that the Bible itself refers to the Kingdom as a government of God that will eventually rule over the whole earth. Daniel 2:44 indicates that this Kingdom will "come" with great power, destroying all corrupt human governments and replacing them with his own. So yes, the Kingdom is an actual government.



Like all governments, the Kingdom has a prime Ruler (Jesus Christ) who is supported by those who assist him in his administration.
The Bible identifies the first Christians as those who would occupy rulership and priestly positions, chosen by God and eventually taken to heaven to fulfill their assignment. Since the Bible says that these ones "will be rulers and priests" (Revelation 20:6) it is apparent that the Kingdom does not rule the earth until all parties are in heaven. The Bible indicates that this will take place when Jesus returns. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)



Like the precedents set in Israel, God ruled them from heaven but had appointed administrators on earth. Moses and the other prophets supported God's Sovereign rulership, and the priesthood served to assist the High Priest in leading the nation in worship at the Temple. All these were pictorial representations of spiritual things in heaven.
The ancient ones looked forward to that rulership on earth.

Hebrews 11:13-16.....
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. 15 And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city." (ASV)

The ones chosen for rulership in heaven were those who were taken into the "new covenant" which was inaugurated by Jesus on the night before his death.
What is pictured in John's Revelation is that "city coming down out of heaven" to rule over mankind. (Revelation 21:2)
Just as God used his ancient servants to instruct his people, I believe that these ancient ones will serve God as part of the "new earth", whilst Jesus and his co-rulers make up the "new heavens". (2 Peter 3:13)



There are two ways to "enter the Kingdom, but only one "door"....that is Jesus Christ.
As the very foundations of God's Kingdom, (Revelation 21:14 Revelation 14:1-5) the apostles and those who join them in heaven as "the chosen ones" (and first fruits) were the first ones to 'come out of that darkness and into the light'.
More were to come, but not all of Christ's followers will end up in heaven. A great crowd of Jesus' disciples will survive the "great tribulation" to become the nucleus of the "new earth". (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) These will be the subjects of God's Kingdom and will serve God in his earthly courtyards, now cleansed and ready for the general resurrection of the dead to begin. (John 5:28-29)



That is a bit of an unfortunate rendering IMO.
The Greek interlinear renders that verse...

"The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone takes vigorous steps to enter it."

No one can "force" their way into the Kingdom....they have to be invited and to take "vigorous steps" in order to qualify for entry. (John 6:65; Luke 13:24)




Yes...this is for those with the heavenly calling (Hebrews 3:1)...those who will serve as priests under Jesus as High Priest in heaven, for humankind on earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)



Yes again...."a royal priesthood", made up of those who are chosen by God to serve sinful humanity on earth. There are no sinners in heaven, but all of mankind will benefit from the Kingdom's rule of 1,000 years, with an appointed priesthood helping to undo all the damage that Adam brought upon his children back in Eden.

All of the Christian scriptures were written primarily by, and for, those of the anointed rulers who will join Jesus in heaven, but the Revelation identifies another group of infinite number who will survive the end of this present world system. I hope to be one of those as I have no anointing for heaven......my home is here on earth, and this is where I hope to live forever....in the paradise conditions that God provided for our first parents.
Nice use of scriptures.

What I find noteworthy, is that it is clearly written there in the scriptures for all eyes to see,
Luke 16:16 New Living Translation
Until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in.

Clearly, those before John the Baptist were not in a position to know about the kingdom. Now were they reaching out for it, nor destined to it.

Thus we can very much appreciate why no person living before John - the first baptizer - would be destined to heavenly life.
As it is clearly stated at John 3:5 New Living Translation
Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

Since no one before John was baptized - born of water - that is, immersed, buried, and raised out anew... none of them are born sons of God.
However, Jesus was the first born of water and spirit, as a son of God.
Matthew 3:16-17 - New Living Translation
16 After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.”
Born of water, and spirit.

The same was the case with all of Jesus' followers... including converted Gentiles.
Acts 10 - New Living Translation
44 Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. 45 The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in other tongues and praising God.

Then Peter asked, 47 “Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?” 48 So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.

There are of course many scriptures bearing out this point.

You know Deeje, when I think about the clarity, and simplicity with which this is presented in scripture, yet not taught by any religion, except one, I really praise the father that I was humble enough for him to draw me to his followers on earth.
I know you feel the same way... probably more than I do. :)

I often think about Matthew 13:10-16
Those words are so true, and meaningful.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I was raised in Christendom and grew up hearing about the Kingdom of God, but not knowing what it was. References were always very vague, like no one could quite put their finger on it. Did Jesus teach it as a vague concept? What was the Lord's Prayer about? I had no idea what I was praying for....do you?
Did the Hebrew scriptures make reference to it as something that would "come" in the future? Yes! Messiah's earthly rulership was eagerly anticipated by the ancient men and women of faith.

It is interesting in the scriptures that we have the coming Kingdom and the Kingdom that is already here. Where God rules, there is God's Kingdom. But of course the Kingdom now is set amongst the Kingdoms of the earth and the coming Kingdom is where all God's enemies have been defeated and the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of God.
And yes I would say that the ancient men and women of faith were looking forward to the Messiah's earthly rule. This would be the time when God comes down in the heavenly Jerusalem to dwell on earth in Zion.
Micah 4:7................And Jehovah will rule as king over them in Mount Zion,From now on and forever.
Ezek 37:24My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

I understand that the Bible itself refers to the Kingdom as a government of God that will eventually rule over the whole earth. Daniel 2:44 indicates that this Kingdom will "come" with great power, destroying all corrupt human governments and replacing them with his own. So yes, the Kingdom is an actual government.

Dan 2:44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."
I don't see how that passage identifies the Kingdom as a government.
Jesus described the Kingdom as having been started in His day and as growing like yeast permeating dough and even as having wicked people in it amongst the true members (the parable of the wheat and the tares) It certainly seems to be more than a government.

Like all governments, the Kingdom has a prime Ruler (Jesus Christ) who is supported by those who assist him in his administration.
The Bible identifies the first Christians as those who would occupy rulership and priestly positions, chosen by God and eventually taken to heaven to fulfill their assignment. Since the Bible says that these ones "will be rulers and priests" (Revelation 20:6) it is apparent that the Kingdom does not rule the earth until all parties are in heaven. The Bible indicates that this will take place when Jesus returns. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

I know you don't mean that all JWs will be assistant administrators in heaven.
How do you know there will be 2 classes of Christians, one class ruling from heaven and another on earth?
Where is that taught in the Bible?

Like the precedents set in Israel, God ruled them from heaven but had appointed administrators on earth. Moses and the other prophets supported God's Sovereign rulership, and the priesthood served to assist the High Priest in leading the nation in worship at the Temple. All these were pictorial representations of spiritual things in heaven.
The ancient ones looked forward to that rulership on earth.

Hebrews 11:13-16.....
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. 15 And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city." (ASV)

The ones chosen for rulership in heaven were those who were taken into the "new covenant" which was inaugurated by Jesus on the night before his death.
What is pictured in John's Revelation is that "city coming down out of heaven" to rule over mankind. (Revelation 21:2)
Just as God used his ancient servants to instruct his people, I believe that these ancient ones will serve God as part of the "new earth", whilst Jesus and his co-rulers make up the "new heavens". (2 Peter 3:13)

Luke 13:28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. "

I guess you mean that these OT people are the ones administering on earth. It looks like people from east, west, north and south will also be with them at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Do you think that might be a big party for the earthly and heavenly government before the heavenly ones get taken to heaven?
Where are the other class of Christians, the other sheep? They also would be outside the Kingdom if the Kingdom is just a Government.

There are two ways to "enter the Kingdom, but only one "door"....that is Jesus Christ.
As the very foundations of God's Kingdom, (Revelation 21:14 Revelation 14:1-5) the apostles and those who join them in heaven as "the chosen ones" (and first fruits) were the first ones to 'come out of that darkness and into the light'.
More were to come, but not all of Christ's followers will end up in heaven. A great crowd of Jesus' disciples will survive the "great tribulation" to become the nucleus of the "new earth". (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) These will be the subjects of God's Kingdom and will serve God in his earthly courtyards, now cleansed and ready for the general resurrection of the dead to begin. (John 5:28-29)

144,000 sounds like it could be a symbolic number to me, as does the 12,000 from each tribe.
Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

Serving God in His temple sounds like they could be priests.
And it says that God will be with them.
And it looks like the Lamb will also be with them as their shepherd.
I'm not sure how you see the 144,000 in heaven and the rest on the earth.
Do you see God as being in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven to earth?

That is a bit of an unfortunate rendering IMO.
The Greek interlinear renders that verse...
"The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone takes vigorous steps to enter it."
No one can "force" their way into the Kingdom....they have to be invited and to take "vigorous steps" in order to qualify for entry. (John 6:65; Luke 13:24)


Yes I have seen other translations like that and it sounds more understandable.

Yes...this is for those with the heavenly calling (Hebrews 3:1)...those who will serve as priests under Jesus as High Priest in heaven, for humankind on earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.
I don't see that this tells us there are those who go to heaven and those who do not. Do you?

Yes again...."a royal priesthood", made up of those who are chosen by God to serve sinful humanity on earth. There are no sinners in heaven, but all of mankind will benefit from the Kingdom's rule of 1,000 years, with an appointed priesthood helping to undo all the damage that Adam brought upon his children back in Eden.

1Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ........................................... ....................................................................9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

I don't see anything about the 1000 years here. I see it as the role of Christians now. Offering spiritual sacrifices to God now and being built up into the body of Christ, the temple of God.
Is there any scriptural reason that you say that most of the scriptures were written for the 144,000 or is it just the logical outcome of the Watch Tower teachings that most of the New Testament applies to them only?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Speak for yourself. On what grounds do you understand religious beliefs found wanting as to the Kingdom of God?

The Kingdom of God, "is the effective but mysterious action of God in the universe and in the tangle of human events," all "the righteous on earth, including those who do not know Christ and his Church and who, under the influence of grace seek God with a sincere heart, are called to build the Kingdom of God, cooperating with the Lord who is its first and decisive architect."
Jesus proclaimed, not himself, but the Kingdom of God, inaugurated on earth with Jesus, the 'now but not yet' of the Kingdom.
6. the Kingdom of God is in the world, and first of all in man, who lives and works in the world. The Christian knows that with his commitment for the progress of history and with the help of God's grace he cooperates in the growth of the Kingdom, towards the historical and eschatological fulfillment of the plan of Divine Providence.
Daniel 2:44
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
How do you know there will be 2 classes of Christians, one class ruling from heaven and another on earth?
Where is that taught in the Bible?

One place, is Matthew 25:31-45...
Three groups: (2 are favorable, 1 isn’t)...1) the “goats”; 2) the “sheep”; & 3) Christ’s “brothers.”

Note: the sheep mentioned here are not the brothers, are they?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
One place, is Matthew 25:31-45...
Three groups: (2 are favorable, 1 isn’t)...1) the “goats”; 2) the “sheep”; & 3) Christ’s “brothers.”

Note: the sheep mentioned here are not the brothers, are they?
Good point you made there with just one scripture.

There is also Revelation 7 (which also confirms that the 144,000 is a literal number), in conjunction with Revelation 21:1-4. Then there is Daniel 7:13, 14, in conjunction with Genesis 22:18, and Genesis 40:10, not forgetting Mathew 6:9, 10, and Ephesians 1:3-14, in conjunction with Philippians 2:9, 10, and we cannot leave out Psalms 37:9-11, nor the prophecies in Isaiah 11, and Isaiah 65:17-26 (those are too beautiful, not to mention)...

The more, the merrier. ;)
I feel as though I left out some, but I'll probably remember later.
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
One place, is Matthew 25:31-45...
Three groups: (2 are favorable, 1 isn’t)...1) the “goats”; 2) the “sheep”; & 3) Christ’s “brothers.”

Note: the sheep mentioned here are not the brothers, are they?
I knew I was forgetting important texts..

Why did God create the earth?
Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens--He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Not to be destroyed.
Ecclesiastes 1:4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

Who will live on the earth?
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
One place, is Matthew 25:31-45...
Three groups: (2 are favorable, 1 isn’t)...1) the “goats”; 2) the “sheep”; & 3) Christ’s “brothers.”

Note: the sheep mentioned here are not the brothers, are they?

Why do you say that the sheep of Matt 25:31-45 are the other class of Christian, the ones who are not Christ's brothers?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Good point you made there with just one scripture.

There is also Revelation 7 (which also confirms that the 144,000 is a literal number), in conjunction with Revelation 21:1-4. Then there is Daniel 7:13, 14, in conjunction with Genesis 22:18, and Genesis 40:10, not forgetting Mathew 6:9, 10, and Ephesians 1:3-14, in conjunction with Philippians 2:9, 10, and we cannot leave out Psalms 37:9-11, nor the prophecies in Isaiah 11, and Isaiah 65:17-26 (those are too beautiful, not to mention)...

The more, the merrier. ;)
I feel as though I left out some, but I'll probably remember later.

How do you know that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 is not a symbolic number and how do you know it is not symbolic of all Christians who are saved and redeemed from the world? And if you are going to say the number is not symbolic then why not say that the rest of the story of the 144,000 is not symbolic, iow why aren't they male Jews etc.
How does Rev 21:1-4 speak about 2 classes of Christians?
How does Daniel 7:13,14 in conjunction with Genesis 22:18, and Genesis 40:10 speak of 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly calling and one with an earthly calling?
How does Mathew 6:9, 10, and Ephesians 1:3-14, in conjunction with Philippians 2:9, 10 tell us about those 2 classes of Christians?
I ask the same about Psalms 37:9-11, the prophecies in Isaiah 11, and Isaiah 65:17-26 also.
Just because the earth is mentioned does not tell us there will be 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly calling and the other with an earthly calling.
It is plain in Revelations that the New Jerusalem is coming down to earth and that God will dwell on earth with His people. Paradise on earth is a Biblical thing, not a JW thing that only they can see in the Bible.
The question I have asked is about the JW notion of 2 classes of Christians. Where does the Bible teach that?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
These are good questions.
First, i would say, we need to be aware that because a verse uses symbolism, that does not automatically make the entire verse or Chapter symbolic.
There are many places in scripture, we can point to, but we can look at just a few, to get the idea.

Revelation 1:1 says, an angel presented the message in signs.
So much of Revelation is symbolic, as I assume you know.

Revelation 1:7 says, he is coming with the clouds.
if we understand "coming with the clouds" to be symbolic, it does not mean "he" is symbolic. the "tribes of the earth" does not become symbolic.
Does that sound reasonable?

Another example we can look at is Revelation 5:6-10 6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, and the eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent out into the whole earth. 7 At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Obviously some of the passage is symbolic, and some literal. Which... and how do we know?

Tell me if you agree with me.
We know the lamb is symbolic of Jesus, and it being slaughtered is symbolic of Christ's sacrificial death, or the ransom sacrifice.
We know this from previous scriptures.

The seven horns and eyes are symbolic, as explained by the angel, and yet still the number seven here is symbolic, in relation to the spirits.
The angel does not explain the number in relation to anything, which is significant. I'll explain later*.

We also know the scroll is symbolic because these are heavenly things - not earthly, but John is explaining what is a vision in heaven.
Coming however to verses 9, and 10, what do we notice?
for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth
Everything is completely literal. They are describing reality, as it is, or was.
These are just a few examples.

* Returning to the number seven...
Recall, in Revelation 12:3 the dragon has 7 heads. Symbolic? We can agree, Yes. Why? The angel does not explain the number in relation to anything specific, but rather follows the same consistent pattern.
We know that the dragon represents one - the Devil. The seven heads represents something which the angel does not explain or relate to.

On the other hand, when we read Revelation 13:1, we see the same number used in describing the wild beast.
Symbolic? No. Why not?
This time the number is used in relation to something specific, which the angel explains -
We have to go to Revelation 17:7-14 to see that. The angel explains there.

With those things in mind...
How do you know that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 is not a symbolic number and how do you know it is not symbolic of all Christians who are saved and redeemed from the world? And if you are going to say the number is not symbolic then why not say that the rest of the story of the 144,000 is not symbolic, iow why aren't they male Jews etc.
Two places help us to see that the 144,000 is not a symbolic number.
Revelation 7:1-9
The angel mentions the 144,000 in relation to... verse 3 - the slaves of God. Specific.
Hopping down to verse 9, the number of slaves of God is specific in relation to the number of the other sheep, or the great crowd / multitude.
One can be numbered, the other cannot. That is specific.
Thus both the number 144,000 in verse 4, and the unnumbered great multitude in verse 9 are literal.

The other place, Revelation 14:1... again the angel uses the number in relation to the slaves of God, taken from the earth, and being with the lamb.
The symbolism in verse 1 to 4 does not automatically make everything symbolic.
They are literally with the lamb, where he is - Mount Zion (Heaven). They were literally taken from the earth, and they literally followed the Lamb. They stuck with him.

A verse in the Bible that helps us relate these scriptures, is Luke 22:28-30. There we see that the slaves - the first-fruits - rule as kings with him, and they rule over the "twelve tribes of Israel".
Notice that early on that symbolic expression was used.
We know this is not the literal nation of Israel, from the scriptures. Hence, we get a vivid picture of what is taking place.

The small number Jesus chose to rule with him in heaven, number 144,000. They are taken from the earth, out of all people and tribes and languages. They are the first fruits from the millions of faithful ones on earth. these millions of faithful ones, include the great crowd who wash their robes in the blood of the lamb - obviously symbolic of exercising faith in Christ's shed blood, and they receive everlasting life, which is seen from the fact that they are shepherded (ruled) by king Jesus and the 144,000 to waters of life, in the paradise earth.
How do we know?

Let's consider the verses...
 
Last edited:
Top