This is part of the system. Now you and I have been informed that our choices are part of the problem, then, well, you and I have a choice to change for the better, or not to change and allow the suffering to continue.
Regards Tony
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Are Religions and Gods manmade?
- Thread starter PAUL MARKHAM
- Start date
This is part of the system. Now you and I have been informed that our choices are part of the problem, then, well, you and I have a choice to change for the better, or not to change and allow the suffering to continue.
Regards Tony
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
None of those measures will go a jot to solving the problems we're facing.
The problems are overpopulation, overconsumption of the Earth's resources, climate change, destruction of the natural world.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Saying more religions will appear is like saying it will rain sometime soon.
A true Messiah will know the problem and the solutions to the problems we are facing.
A huge reduction in the Earth's population.
A huge reduction in Man's consumption.
A huge reduction in the destruction of natural resources.
Climate change is partly natural and partly Man's doing in my opinion. But it's happening and we have to tailor our world to accommodate it.
Wheras I see acceptance of those principles, gives us the power for that needed change.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well, I have certain beliefs that I firmly hold too, but my views are not fixed, although I think certain people per perceive me as such.... But that is their problem, because once I explain something about myself a respectful person such as you just accepts what I say whereas a disrespectful person contradicts me and tells me that is not really true, as if they know more about me than I know about myself. That is arrogant because it is about what they believe are their assessment skills, how they believe they can size people up because they are just so smart.I think that often is the case. I can only speak from my perspective, but I don't see myself as having that many fixed views, so perhaps it doesn't bother me so much if I am right or wrong - or how others see me. But then perhaps it's just my coming to terms with not expecting too many answers either - and perhaps seen as laziness or lack of curiosity by others.
For example, when I tell someone that I do not care if I am right or wrong and then they come back and tell me that I do care, even though nothing in my post indicates that I care because I asked to drop the subject we were arguing about, that is arrogant, because they think they know I care even though I said I did not care. And then they call me arrogant, which is projection. It is also projection that I care about being right when they are the one who keeps trying to prove they are right. It boggles my mind that people so lacking in self-awareness and I tend to think these kinds of people must be miserable because all they do is find fault with others. They never make "I" statements which would indicate they are not looking at their own behavior, all they do is make "you" statements.... you, you, you. Always looking at others instead of oneself takes away any personal responsibility and any guilt they might have. One reason I know about this behavior is that I used to be this way, over 30 years ago, but I worked hard in 12 step groups and counseling to overcome it.
I do not pretend to know why people act as they do, their motivation, but I can certainly see their behavior, and i will no longer tolerate it. Attack my beliefs, not me. When people start attacking people it shows that they lack of personal boundaries and they are also selfish because they cannot imagine how what they say might make another person feel, and obviously they don't care. All they care about is being right. What a hell of a way to live.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That question is much too broad, solutions for what crisis? We face lots of problems in the world today.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I guess that is what you were talking about in your post to me, the crises we face, so I will address it here.
Overpopulation is because people continue to have too many children, more than the world's resources can support, and so we have to ask the reason why they have so many children. Maybe in third world countries it is out of ignorance, or maybe it is selfish because they want more children just because they like children, or to help take care of them, or maybe they wanted sex and had no way to prevent pregnancies. But of the problem was going to be solved it would have to be a spiritual solution as well as a political one. First they would have to less selfish, which is the spiritual solution, but education is also important. Baha'u'llah stressed the importance of education and called for universal education
“Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom.” Gleanings, pp. 259-260
Over-consumption is definitely a spiritual problem because it is caused by materialism which was addressed by Baha'u'llah. Overly materialistic people, people who want more than they need, lack spiritual values, so unless people change their values, what they live for and consider important, unless they start to care more about other people rather than just themselves and their own family, this won't change. The Christian beliefs of love your neighbor as yourself is not going to change this. Baha'u'llah said we are to prefer our brother to ourselves and that is a much higher standard, one that is needed if we are going to change the world.
Climate change has to be handled by scientists, but climate change is related to materialism because over-consumption has been instrumental in accelerating climate change.
Destruction of the natural world also has to be handled by scientists and politicians but it is also a spiritual problem, again related to materialism and selfishness.
All these are complex problems that are not going to be solved overnight, but we have to start somewhere, and awareness is the first place to start. Then plans need to be put in place. Much of this involves governments, so it is outside the domain of religion. However, since it is people who run the governments, if people change and are more spiritual and less selfish, then the governments will reflect those values.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Ok, you say no one could understand God except those messengers. How do you know they got it right? Perhaps they did the best they could adding what they wanted to be in order to fill the gap.
Is a messenger just one who has interacted with God? By this definition, I would be a messenger.
When this messenger sees that the message is not entirely as it is supposed to be, I place the corrected truth in the world.
You can't conceive of anyone but your messengers having messages. Why not? Does it help they can not be confronted.
Perhaps, it's easier to blindly accept, then you have to do no more than blindly follow without thinking or Discovering anything for yourself.
It's always been easier to have others bring one the knowledge than to go out and Discover knowledge for oneself. On the other hand, is it really better? One is supposed to become more than the sum of their teachings. How can that be done if one never leaves home??
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That the Messengers truly got a message from God is not something that can be proven as a fact. How could such a claim be verified and proven?
However, if we investigate the claim we can prove it to ourselves and then we know.
That is a huge claim. What evidence do you have to back up a claim that you have interacted with God? Why should anyone believe you?
So now you have the Truth from God and you know that the messages from Messengers are not true?
No, I cannot conceive of that because there is no reason to believe anyone else ever got messages from God. What was their Mission? Where are their scriptures?
I am confronting you and asking you for proof to support your claims. How does that help me?
But you expect me to blindly accept that you had interaction with the Almighty God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? Do you understand what you are asking me to believe, with no evidence?
Did I ever suggest never leaving home? Did I ever suggest we never live life? However, in case you have not noticed there is a pandemic affecting the entire world, so going out to Discover things is not what we are supposed to be doing right now. Do you live in a box? Don't you see what is going on all over the world?
You still have not explained to me or anyone else on this forum how they can Discover God for themselves. To say we can see God's actions is not an answer because what we see in this world are not God's actions, they are the actions of humans. God rules and sustains the universe but He does not act or interact in this world. God gave man free will so man could manage this world. We are like chess pieces on a chess board that God created, moving around at will.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Bahaullah failed to see the problems we face today, so doesn't have a solution. The problems he saw are problems Man has always faced. We didn't start wars in the 19th century which is all he worried about. Coming up with lots of solutions to one problem.
Climate change and destruction of the world resources can't be changed by science.
One of the reasons for having many children is the way society worked in many places and in ours a few centuries ago. People worked the land in a very poor productive way, this has been the norm for 1,000s of years and required a lot of manual labour. Plus death rates were very much higher.
Modern farming requires fewer people, disease kills less, but people still keep believing in more children. It only requires 1 couple to produce 2-3 children to eventually to overpopulate the Earth. Start producing 4-6 and overpopulation, consumption, destruction of the Earth is the problem.
Data Center: International Indicators – Population Reference Bureau
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
We can judge by what the Messenger says.
Not things that were told in the past because they are easily fore filled. What the Messenger says about the future. Bahaullah fails to do that concentrating on problems of the past.
Bird123 shows how easy it is to claim a message from god.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Embrace the new one and essentially get rid of the old ones. Baha'is have said things like they are no longer relevant... they are abrogated... They had their spring and summer and are now in their winter. But when we look at the way a religion is practiced and believed today, it has no resemblance of what Baha'is say about God. So Baha'is add in that all the religions have become filled with misinterpretations and added traditions. By doing that a Baha'i can deny anything about any religion and still come back and pretend that all religions "original" all taught about the one true Baha'i version of God.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, where else? What did Buddha say about God? What did Krishna say about God? What did Zoroaster say about God? We've already covered Jesus pretty well, and have determined that Christians don't have a clue about God. They think that there is some kind of cosmic battle going on between God and Satan, and that Jesus rose from the dead and is coming back to destroy Satan once and for all. And, by doing that, will put an end to evil once and for all. Which we all I think agree that is not literally true but is Christian myths.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Sure. Let's do it. What do we know that is true today... not something from a 1000 years ago or even a hundred years ago.
Yes, that's a very good plan for Baha'is. That way they don't have to argue with people that believe in the other religions.
So how do you learn from it if you don't study it? I mentioned this earlier on this thread or one of the others, where in the Book of Revelations does it say that the Lamb returns and is put in prison and dies there?
Other problems... The Baha'is Faith is way too similar to Islam. It is not an updated version of Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Christianity or a few other religions. Should we just drop those other beliefs and teachings from those religions? Should we not learn what those religions said about the coming of the next Avatar or the next Buddha or the return of Christ? And when we do this, does the Baha'i explanations fit? I know Baha'is make them fit, but it takes a lot of massaging.
So if there's problems, we can't just leave those religions behind and say... "Games over. The Baha'i Faith is it. It is the new perfect truth from God." Just by looking at Christianity, I don't see that a significant false Messiah has appeared. Same with the beasts and dragons... and the battle of Armageddon. The plagues and wars of Revelation haven't happened yet. But they look like they are starting to happen now. So Christians still have a very good chance at being right. Then add Judaism. They were not looking at four different Messiahs to be coming. Hinduism has Kalki. Was Kalki Jesus and Muhammad and The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Or was there supposed to be many "Avatars" come before Kalki and Baha'u'llah is Kalki? Lots of questions, but Baha'i don't want any part of them. They'd be good with just leaving all that stuff behind.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hmmm? I thought it's been a couple hundred years of people finally being able to openly question the phony myths and practices of religious people. Baha'is tell me Jesus in not in a wafer that priests give to their followers. Baha'is tell me that we shouldn't confess our sins to priests. Baha'is tell me that Jesus' body is dead... that no way did he come back to life. Baha'is tell me there is no Satan, the devil. Baha'is tell me that Jesus is not God.... And on and on.
When it comes to the gods of other religions, Baha'is are very much in agreement with most all atheists.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The 1844 second coming of Christ is the "Gate"? The forerunner to the main guy? The year Baha'u'llah declared is hardly ever talked about. Oh, and I wonder how many Scientology books there are? But, probably L. Ron didn't write them all, so I guess it doesn't matter. Baha'u'llah probably has all the books of every prophet put together beat.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It's a "winner"? How "toxic" has religion been? Atheism has been a positive reaction to bad religion. Will the Baha'i Faith be any better?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I don't think he was ever in Jerusalem or "Mt. Zion." So those prophecies aren't mentioned, but the ones that talk about Mt. Carmel are. But you know when I did ask them about Jerusalem, they were still able to flip it around and "fulfill" the prophecy by saying "Jerusalem is symbolic." So you can't win. Like with the "He" or "They" in that other verse they use as a prophecy. Tony said that because Baha'u'llah had other people with him, "They" still fits? It just don't matter. He's there guy no matter what it says.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Did you read there, "Promise of Peace" statement? Things like oneness of humanity, one universal auxiliary language, getting rid of the extremes of wealth and poverty. But, since they don't get involved in partisan politics, or it seems like anything that might be political, I don't think they can really get involved in any major progressive movement. They wouldn't want to get labeled and identified with some protests groups after all. Like the migrants at the Mexican/U.S. border and the Black Lives Matter movement... or the anti-assault rifle protests. All things they believe in, but I don't see them in the forefront carrying signs saying that they are against those things.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Again, which prophecies did Baha'u'llah say he fulfilled and which ones did Bill Sears or other Baha'is say he fulfilled?
And what else? Wasn't it something about don't be fooled that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end?