Are Religions and Gods manmade?

Trailblazer said:

We all have our personal opinions but that is not evidence of anything at all.

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It is. You claim prophecies are evidence. Every single prophecy is either vague, a prediction also made by political analysts of the time, or wrong. I have discussed many things already but everything in the book is not evidence.
The book made definitive claims a god messenger should be. He failed on those accounts. That is not an opinion.
Again, an example, predicting a German war directly after several wars just happened in the region, the climate was incredibly unstable and a top analyist was calling for a large war to happen soon is not a "prophecy".
It simply is not.

Saying humans are not evolutionary from the animal line is simply wrong. It is a failed prediction.

Trailblazer said:

Baha'u'llah did not copy older scriptures. He received His own Revelation from God.
That is my belief, a belief I am 100% certain is true.

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First of all he MENTIONS HINDUISM and the scripture. SO he READ IT? Since there is ZERO evidence he is a messenger of any God he obviously is re-intrpreting Hindu scripture. Easy logic. Your logic is that he got it through magic which is not logic but emotional attachment, brainwashing or some other delusion.

Trailblazer said:

The problem is when you assert personal opinions as facts when you have no proof of them.
When you make assertions you cannot prove are true that is an argument from ignorance.

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Ohh wow, like what YOU JUST DID RIGHT ABOVE??
Your personal opinion that he 100% did not take this knowledge from Hindu text when he speaks of and is aware of Hinduism and demonstrates no proof of divinity and does demonstrate proof of fraud with bad science and such??
Yet you are still at 100%? This is obviously an opinion (based on no facts) yet you just pointed out above that that's a fallacy.
Hence, fantasy world.

Trailblazer said:

Believe what you want to believe, we all have beliefs. I believe everything Baha'u'llah wrote is reality.

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I know. You said that.

Trailblazer said:

You can do me no harm with your beliefs because I know what the truth is, even though I cannot prove it to you.
It is not my job to prove my beliefs are true.

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You consistantly think everything is about you. I'm not trying to make brainwashed people see anything, that's almost impossible. People do not quit emotional attachments from facts. I'm just putting it out there for whomever that critical thinking is important and people who otherwise might have good philosophies often decide to claim "divinity" and usually if you look close in a non-bias way you can see it's BS.

Your beliefs cannot be shown to be true because there is no evidence.

Trailblazer said:

The prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled is all in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.

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More vague nonsense. There are about 70 predicted dates for the 2nd coming.
1844 was used with the Bab.
This book is another mess of after the fact, confirmation bias and ridiculous stretches of facts.
The 2nd coming predictions can be seen here.
Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

We don't need this book to debunk this, his own words really show he was just a man who was a prolific reader and writer.
Also Christ was one of many savior god myths, not anything to do with any god, a Jewish version of a popular myth.
The 2nd coming of a myth is just a myth.

joelr said:

It's not possible in any age unless good evidence is demonstrated. If I'm going to believe on crap evidence then I'm believing in Thor.

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That will always be your choice. I see the evidence is more than sound.

Regards Tony

joelr said:

More vague nonsense. There are about 70 predicted dates for the 2nd coming.
1844 was used with the Bab.
This book is another mess of after the fact, confirmation bias and ridiculous stretches of facts.
The 2nd coming predictions can be seen here.
Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

We don't need this book to debunk this, his own words really show he was just a man who was a prolific reader and writer.
Also Christ was one of many savior god myths, not anything to do with any god, a Jewish version of a popular myth.
The 2nd coming of a myth is just a myth.

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Actually, I have now decided to get away from toxic world destroying atheist views. As such I wish you always well and happy a leave it at that.

Regards Tony

joelr said:

First of all he MENTIONS HINDUISM and the scripture. SO he READ IT? Since there is ZERO evidence he is a messenger of any God he obviously is re-intrpreting Hindu scripture. Easy logic. Your logic is that he got it through magic which is not logic but emotional attachment, brainwashing or some other delusion.



Ohh wow, like what YOU JUST DID RIGHT ABOVE??
Your personal opinion that he 100% did not take this knowledge from Hindu text when he speaks of and is aware of Hinduism and demonstrates no proof of divinity and does demonstrate proof of fraud with bad science and such??
Yet you are still at 100%? This is obviously an opinion (based on no facts) yet you just pointed out above that that's a fallacy.
Hence, fantasy world.



I know. You said that.



You consistantly think everything is about you. I'm not trying to make brainwashed people see anything, that's almost impossible. People do not quit emotional attachments from facts. I'm just putting it out there for whomever that critical thinking is important and people who otherwise might have good philosophies often decide to claim "divinity" and usually if you look close in a non-bias way you can see it's BS.

Your beliefs cannot be shown to be true because there is no evidence.

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I tried to have respectful dialogues with you but it did not take long for me to realize that is not possible. This is not about you disagreeing with my beliefs, I do not care if people disagree with my beliefs. This is about personal insults. This week I made a decision that I will only post to people who are respectful. I will no longer post to people who speak for me as if they know me better than I know myself or call me brainwashed, dishonest, or egotistical.

I am done with people who cannot be courteous. I never had anyone on Ignore until this week but now you are poster #3. Now you will have to find some other believer to insult and use for a platform to promulgate your anti-religion beliefs. Have fun.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Actually, I have now decided to get away from toxic world destroying atheist views.

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It is a shame that "some" atheists have to behave as they do and give the nice atheists a bad name because there are a lot of respectful nice atheists on this forum, more of those than the other kind.

I never put any poster on Ignore until this week. Now I have three on Ignore, one believer and two atheists. It was hard to do but now that I have done it I feel much better. I have no obligation to read or post to anyone who cannot be courteous so I do not feel a bit guilty.

“O people of God! I admonish you to observe courtesy, for above all else it is the prince of virtues. Well is it with him who is illumined with the light of courtesy and is attired with the vesture of uprightness. Whoso is endued with courtesy hath indeed attained a sublime station. It is hoped that this Wronged One and everyone else may be enabled to acquire it, hold fast unto it, observe it, and fix our gaze upon it. This is a binding command which hath streamed forth from the Pen of the Most Great Name.”

(Baha’u’llah, Tablet of the World, p. 88.)

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Actually, I have now decided to get away from toxic world destroying atheist views. As such I wish you always well and happy a leave it at that.

Regards Tony

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Perhaps you might understand where atheists are coming from then - when the majority have fixed views such as yourself, but different ones - and where they might see such views as being just as toxic.

Mock Turtle said:

Perhaps you might understand where atheists are coming from then - when the majority have fixed views such as yourself, but different ones - and where they might see such views as being just as toxic.

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That is their choice also. It is only the toxic I talk about. Their posts stand out.

Many are courteous and exchanges between them is pleasant.

Regards Tony

Mock Turtle said:

Perhaps you might understand where atheists are coming from then - when the majority have fixed views such as yourself, but different ones - and where they might see such views as being just as toxic.

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I do understand where atheists are coming from and I have no problem with atheists. What I have a problem with is personal insults but you have never been anything less than courteous.

It is a shame that "some" atheists have to behave as they do and give the nice atheists a bad name because there are a lot of respectful nice atheists on this forum, more of those than the other kind.

I have tried to have respectful dialogues with certain people I finally realized that is not possible. This is not about anyone disagreeing with my beliefs, as I do not care if people disagree with my beliefs. This is about personal insults, be they direct or indirect. This week I made a decision that I will only post to people who are respectful. I will no longer post to people who speak for me as if they know me better than I know myself or call me brainwashed, dishonest, or egotistical.

I am done with people who cannot be courteous. I have no obligation to read or post to anyone who cannot be courteous. I never had anyone on Ignore until this week but now I have three posters on Ignore, two atheists and one believer. It was a little difficult to do because I am not a person who likes ignoring anyone, but enough is enough. I will no longer be anyone's doormat, not anymore.

Trailblazer said:

I do understand where atheists are coming from and I have no problem with atheists. What I have a problem with is personal insults but you have never been anything less than courteous.

It is a shame that "some" atheists have to behave as they do and give the nice atheists a bad name because there are a lot of respectful nice atheists on this forum, more of those than the other kind.

I have tried to have respectful dialogues with certain people I finally realized that is not possible. This is not about anyone disagreeing with my beliefs, as I do not care if people disagree with my beliefs. This is about personal insults, be they direct or indirect. This week I made a decision that I will only post to people who are respectful. I will no longer post to people who speak for me as if they know me better than I know myself or call me brainwashed, dishonest, or egotistical.

I am done with people who cannot be courteous. I have no obligation to read or post to anyone who cannot be courteous. I never had anyone on Ignore until this week but now I have three posters on Ignore, two atheists and one believer. It was a little difficult to do because I am not a person who likes ignoring anyone, but enough is enough. I will no longer be anyone's doormat, not anymore.

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Well I certainly agree that it is the mark of the frustrated or those who just must win arguments/discussions that tend to resort to insults or anything similar, and I try not to do so because it is not helpful at all. And we know this is not applicable to any one group alone.

Mock Turtle said:

Well I certainly agree that it is the mark of the frustrated or those who just must win arguments/discussions that tend to resort to insults or anything similar, and I try not to do so because it is not helpful at all. And we know this is not applicable to any one group alone.

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That's right. I certainly did not mean to imply it was always atheists who are discourteous or insulting. It could be anyone, and it is really about their personality more than anything else.

What word best describes people who try to make themselves look good by putting others down?

Insecure

'Insecure' - because that's the only way they think they would look good, by stepping on others to lift themselves up.

What word best describes people who try to make themselves ...

Trailblazer said:

That's right. I certainly did not mean to imply it was always atheists who are discourteous or insulting. It could be anyone, and it is really about their personality more than anything else.

What word best describes people who try to make themselves look good by putting others down?

Insecure

'Insecure' - because that's the only way they think they would look good, by stepping on others to lift themselves up.

What word best describes people who try to make themselves ...

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I think that often is the case. I can only speak from my perspective, but I don't see myself as having that many fixed views, so perhaps it doesn't bother me so much if I am right or wrong - or how others see me. But then perhaps it's just my coming to terms with not expecting too many answers either - and perhaps seen as laziness or lack of curiosity by others.

CG Didymus said:

She's quoted the ones about the earthquake, the stars falling and the dark day. You gotta read about those. So convincing... not. All of them happened years before The Bab declared himself. And they all were no where near Persia. The earthquake was in Portugal. A meteor shower in North America was the stars falling. And the dark day I think Bill Sears said was smoke. We had a day like that here with all the fires in Northern California. And Portland was pretty dark after Mt. St. Helens erupted and blew up.

A Baha'i favorite is about how Baha'u'llah was exiled from place to place. The Bible quote says Assyria, but Baha'is say that the ancient Assyrian Empire included Persia. So a little fudging there. But then lots of translations say "They" and not "he" will come to you from the mountains and the seas and some other places. The Jewish interpretation says that the "they" that this is talking about is the Jewish people taken into foreign lands will return to Israel. But who knows? Nobody. And even TB doesn't put a lot of stock in prophecies, because they are so vague and can be interpreted so many different ways.

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So just a mish-mash of events that can be made to fit at will.
And a lot of events that don't fit and ignored. For instance how much time did Bahaullah spend in Israel?

CG Didymus said:

Okay, before Muhammad came, what truth was the Christian Church teaching? Did the power leave Buddhism in India and East Asian when the next messenger came? Did Buddhism hold power over all the previous messages when the Buddha came? No, the religions kept doing what they do. Teaching and believing the things they do as if it was the truth. The end time predictions of the NT makes it sound like the people of the Earth will have no choice. The end comes suddenly. Evil people are destroyed. The evil one is destroyed, and God establishes his kingdom. That's not exactly what happened. Baha'u'llah came and went and we're still going through the tribulations. When the new race of men and world peace happens, then... you'll have something. Right now, it's only a "maybe". You might be right, but you might be wrong... and nothing more than another religion that gets added to the list of the many religions of the world.

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We just keep doing things as we have been doing them and ignoring this "New Messiah" who is unable to make a dent in the old religions. In fact new ones are popping up all the time. Scientology, NEXVIM, List of new religious movements - Wikipedia

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The past is the past CG, what we need is to see how we live God's Word in this age.

".. The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.... "

The remainder of that quote tells us what we are facing CG, I can say no more than this passage offeres.

"...... We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live..... "

That is what we all face, the way I see it.

Regards Tony

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We do face terrible times so I'll give you that. The solutions are obvious, where and what does Bahaullah say those solutions are. Don't offer we all follow him because it's meaningless. We want real solutions to the crisis we face.

Trailblazer said:

And we cannot really do that unless we leave the past behind.

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So I'll ask you. What does Bahaullahoffer as solutions to the crisis we face? Don't offer up we all follow him because that's meaningless, give us actual solutions. And where he says them.

PAUL MARKHAM said:

So just a mish-mash of events that can be made to fit at will.
And a lot of events that don't fit and ignored. For instance how much time did Bahaullah spend in Israel?

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The Prophecies are sound from the Bible. They indeed point to Baha'u'llah, but we get the choice. Islamic Hadith also tell us about Akka. Quite simply these people had visions of the future that they had to put into words. It has been explained that is not easy to do. People that have and NDE experience say the same thing, they say the experience is beyond words, and the try to offer an explanation, an explanation they say can not really describe what was seen and felt.

Here are Hadith about Akka.

The following hath been recorded concerning the merits of Akka, and of the sea, and of Aynu'l-Baqar (The Spring of the Cow) which is in Akka:

1. Abdu'l-'Aziz, son of Abdu'-Salam, hath related unto us that the Prophet - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon him - hath said: "Akka is a city in Syria to which God hath shown His special mercy."

2. Ibn-i-Mas'ud - may God be pleased with him - hath stated: "The Prophet - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath said: 'Of all shores the best is the shore of Askelon, and Akka is, verily, better than Askelon, and the merit of Akka above that of Askelon and all other shores is as the merit of Muhammad above that of all other Prophets. I bring you tidings of a city betwixt two mountains in Syria, in the middle of a meadow, which is called Akka. Verily, he that entereth therein, longing for it and eager to visit it, God will forgive his sins, both of the past and of the future. And he that departeth from it, other than as a pilgrim, God will not bless his departure. In it is a spring called the Spring of the Cow. Whoso drinketh a draught therefrom, God will fill his heart with light, and will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.'"

3. Anas, son of Malik - may God be pleased with him - hath said: "The Apostle of God - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath said: 'By the shore of the sea is a city, suspended beneath the Throne, and named Akka. He that dwelleth therein, firm and expecting a reward from God - exalted be He - God will write down for him, until the Day of Resurrection, the recompense of such as have been patient, and have stood up, and knelt down, and prostrated themselves, before Him.'"

4. And He - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath said: "I announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God - exalted be He! It is called Akka. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face of the enemy, God will gather him with Khidr - peace be upon Him - and God will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection."

5. And He - may the blessings of God, - exalted be He - and His salutations be upon Him - hath said: "There are kings and princes in Paradise. The poor of Akka are the kings of Paradise and the princes thereof. A month in Akka is better than a thousand years elsewhere."

6. The Apostle of God - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - is reported to have said: "Blessed the man that hath visited Akka, and blessed he that hath visited the visitor of Akka. Blessed the one that hath drunk from the Spring of the Cow and washed in its waters, for the black-eyed damsels quaff the camphor in Paradise, which hath come from the Spring of the Cow, and from the Spring of Salvan (Siloam), and the Well of Zamzam. Well is it with him that hath drunk from these springs, and washed in their waters, for God hath forbidden the fire of hell to touch him and his body on the Day of Resurrection."

7. The Prophet - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - is stated to have said: "In Akka are works of supererogation and acts which are beneficial, which God vouchsafed specially unto whomsoever He pleaseth. And he that saith in Akka: 'Glorified be God, and praise be unto God, and there is none other God but God, and most great is God, and there is no power nor strength except in God, the Exalted, the Mighty,' God will write down for him a thousand good deeds, and blot out from him a thousand evil deeds, and will uplift him a thousand grades in Paradise, and will forgive him his transgressions. And whoso saith in Akka: 'I beg forgiveness of God,' God will forgive all his trespasses. And he that remembereth God in Akka at morn and at eventide, in the night-season and at dawn, is better in the sight of God than he who beareth swords, spears and arms in the path of God - exalted be He!"

8. The Apostle of God - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath also said: "He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: 'God is Most Great!' at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: 'God is Most Great!' - exalted be He - God will forgive his sins, both past and future."

9. The Apostle of God - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath said: "He that looketh upon the sea a full night is better than he who passeth two whole months betwixt the Rukn and the Maqam. And he that hath been brought up on the shores of the sea is better than he that hath been brought up elsewhere. And he that lieth on the shore is as he that standeth elsewhere."

Verily, the Apostle of God - may the blessings of God, exalted be He, and His salutations be upon Him - hath spoken the truth. (Bahá'u'lláh: Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, pages 177-181)

To add thoughts to number 4, Abdul'baha tells the story where he slept on the ground on an animal skin in Akka. The fleas would keep him awake. He worked out all the fleas would come to the top of the skin to feed on him, so he could then hop up turn it over, lay back down and get a few moments of slumber before they all made it back in force. If you have stood in a flea outbreak, then you can imagine how much suffering that would have caused.

Regards Tony

PAUL MARKHAM said:

We do face terrible times so I'll give you that. The solutions are obvious, where and what does Bahaullah say those solutions are. Don't offer we all follow him because it's meaningless. We want real solutions to the crisis we face.

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Well now you are asking me to offer the Message God gave through Baha'u'llah, that contains all the remedies. What part of that Message do I offer, as it all needs to be considered?

Thus I would ask, why do you and others, if you are wanting the solutions, choose for ones own self to read what was offered?

Baha'u'llah wrote letters addressed to all the Rulers, all the clergy of all Faiths and to all the peoples of the world and said what was needed to be done.

Elimination of predudices of Race, Nation and Gender.
Acceptance of the oneness of humanity
Education for all people
Disarmament
Spiritual solution to the economic problem
World parliament of Nations, all boundaries firmly set.
A world language taught with the mother tongue.
Facilities to Look after the elderly, disabled and ill
Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty

There is a starting list. How to achieve that was the Message Baha'u'llah offered and for that he was punished by those that see to achieve it, they have to maybe consider giving up a bit of power and wealth.

Regards Tony

PAUL MARKHAM said:

We just keep doing things as we have been doing them and ignoring this "New Messiah" who is unable to make a dent in the old religions. In fact new ones are popping up all the time. Scientology, NEXVIM, List of new religious movements - Wikipedia

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Matthew 24:5 and many passages in the Bible say that will happen

"For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many."

The Key is, one will not be a liar. Thus the Bible also tells us how to determine a true prophet, so we can exercise good judgement using our free will.

Such is the quandary mentioned many times, you get to choose and the only person you have to answer for, is your own self.

We are either good or evil, it is all in our choices.

Regards Tony