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Are Shrines a Form of Idolatry?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think so... :)

1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (Emphasis mine)

There's another verse I can't figure where in the back of my brain that says god "doesn't care" which day the sabbath is held but that it Is held. So, instead of looking at rituals as man does, one looks at the intent behind it whether (I think it said) it be on a Saturday or the day after. In the bible I had, it was a the end of one of the gospels.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There's another verse I can't figure where in the back of my brain that says god "doesn't care" which day the sabbath is held but that it Is held. So, instead of looking at rituals as man does, one looks at the intent behind it whether (I think it said) it be on a Saturday or the day after. In the bible I had, it was a the end of one of the gospels.
Romans 14:5 In the same way, one person regards a certain day as more sacred than another, and another person regards them all alike. There is nothing wrong with having different personal convictions about such matters. 6 For the person who observes one day as especially sacred does it to honor the Lord. And the same is true regarding what a person eats. The one who eats everything eats to honor the Lord, because he gives thanks to God, and the one who has a special diet does it to honor the Lord, and he also gives thanks to God.TPT
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Romans 14:5 In the same way, one person regards a certain day as more sacred than another, and another person regards them all alike. There is nothing wrong with having different personal convictions about such matters. 6 For the person who observes one day as especially sacred does it to honor the Lord. And the same is true regarding what a person eats. The one who eats everything eats to honor the Lord, because he gives thanks to God, and the one who has a special diet does it to honor the Lord, and he also gives thanks to God.TPT

That's probably the one. I shouldn't think rituals, traditions, et cetera should be important unless, from a biblical perspective, one is worshiping these items as god himself. Another thing with the OP is, though, she needs to be open and give credit to other people's modes of worship. What is idolism to one person is irrelevant to another. It only matters if all religions were under the same laws.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Just to make this clear... I'm not a Jehovah Witness (as your conversation partner is).
And yet your "god" only exists as a myth in your book, so it always comes back to worshiping the book.
I think God exists in reality, and Christians do not commit idolatry.
They don't worship the book, I think.
To answer the rest of your post:
Christians don't teach lies in general... and Jesus was real and not a myth, in my opinion.
In Christianity, you're not required to blindly believe. Bible encourages everyone to make up their own mind. 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The difference being that the Temple was built at God's request and to his specifications.
That's not a difference. Everyone of these people who built these, believe they were doing so in honor to their gods, not as a form of idolatry, but a form of worship. The stories in the bible, are woven in such a way as part of the window dressings for such undertakings. The gods inspired them to build these, is the underlying commonality. They are functionally, doing the exact same things.

Whatever mythologies there are that surround them and their creations, are really just more ornamentation, like golden angels with their wings touching over the altar. That's just part of the symbolism. "The god instructed us to build his temple in the clearing by the river, and to make it stand for all the villagers to see. He instructed us to offer fish upon the altar in his name, so that our harvests will be rich and bountiful," sort of narrative symbol.

No building of the Christian faith ever included anything resembling a physical building. The "church" was the people....the building didn't matter.
That's true. They originally met in one another's homes, or other meeting places they were able to secure for such a function. That really has more to do with organization and funding, than anything spiritual. It's like a lot of startup businesses. Take Hewlett Packard for instance. HP began with two guys in a garage, which eventually got too big for the garage, so they had to invest in larger spaces, eventually spanning the entire globe with different offices, or "churches" if you want to look at it as a point of comparison with a religious organization.

But when the congregations increased in size, buildings became necessary....but they were to be modest meeting places for Bible education and instruction. The gigantic and palacious cathedrals of past centuries stood in stark contrast to anything Jesus commanded. It seems as if there was a competition to see who could outdo whom with the most ornate and elaborate edifice....and all whilst the poor among them were starving......?
First, Jesus didn't command anything regarding meeting places, or organizational structures, or church administration, or which bank you should put the money into, etc.. In fact, Jesus said nothing whatsoever about business administration. Nor for that matter, did he ever imagine starting a new religion.

His "church" as you should know, was the mystical body of believers which transcends religious and ethnic boundaries. That was the core of his teaching, to see beyond religious and ethnic distinctions, where all are welcome, all are included, should they so desire.

That a new religion got started in his name is a matter of historical events, not a designed intention. It just happened to become a distinct religion, because people being people needed everything to remain as a "us vs. them' reality of boundaries and distinctions.

As far as ornate and elaborate structures later being built in history in the name of Christendom, now we are talking about Christianity as a religious institution, not simply a mystical body of believers transcending religious and ethnic boundaries. Now it is a religious institution itself, with its own borders.

Any systemized religious structure has key roles to play in a society. A simple social and spiritual movement within a complex and strained religious and political word, which is what Christianity began as, it was now a structured religious institution itself.

In cultures, temples and shrines, were maintained places of worship that served a function for that society. What you see in the Hebrew culture, was the same things functionally you saw in other cultures of the time. They had unique features, but so did the others as well. Any sort of main cultural icon, which a temple, certainly would be one of those, are purposefully made ornate and full of glory. Solomon's temple certainly was. It doesn't matter if you say God ordered it designed that way. It matches what you see in other religions, such as the Catholic church in its great cathedrals. St. Peter's basicialla is basically a Christian version of the Jewish temple.

One can argue that all that is a waste of money, but one could more easily argue, so is anything that a nation, or a people's spend their money collectively on that symbolizes their strength and unity, like monuments and temples. Do these have value to the culture which builds these? They would consider it an investment in their collective identities as a people of this god or that, or of this nation or that, or this religion or that.

Where was Jesus when they were shedding innocent blood? I'm afraid he had long left the building.
I can look at most of these modern versions of Christianity you see in fundamentalists circles and ask that same question. Where is Jesus in them? I hear his name a lot, but I don't see his Spirit in most of them. Rather I see mainly egos, wearing a Jesus mask. Conformity, is a poor-man's substitution for a real spiritual transformation.

It crosses over into idolatry when we put "things" before God....when we concentrate on physical things like buildings and the accumulation of wealth and power before we consider how we worship and whether it is authentic to God, not just to ourselves.
But you see, you are concentrating on "things" yourself. You're saying "No buildings" is the way to worship God, and they are saying "yes buildings". Both are focused on "things".

If the Spirit of God is present, it doesn't matter if there is a building or a temple, or not a building or temple. It doesn't matter if you meet on Sunday, or on Saturday. It doesn't matter if you have the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Bible. It doesn't matter if you believe in the Trinity, or not. Those are all just "things". They do not have anything to do with your heart. The heart, not "things" was Jesus's focus.

Keeping the masses in ignorance for centuries and torturing confessions out of 'heretics' as an excuse to silence them was par for the course.....there is no Christianity there....nor can there be in anything that sprang from them.
Yes, coercion of others is against the Spirit of Christ. Shunning, for instance, is an evil that is used to silence others in the church, for instance. Shunning is a threat. God does not threaten his children. Only child abusers do that.

The Bible can be an idol if it is misused or ignored which is what I see most of the time. It was never designed to beat people up, but to educate them and give them hope and dignity. Jesus showed us how to do that too and encouraged his disciples to do the same.
When someone looks the Bible for their salvation, that if they obey all the rules, they follow the teachings of the elders, they don't question their authority, and so forth, all of that is idolatry.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Just to make this clear... I'm not a Jehovah Witness (as your conversation partner is).

I think God exists in reality, and Christians do not commit idolatry.
They don't worship the book, I think.
To answer the rest of your post:
Christians don't teach lies in general... and Jesus was real and not a myth, in my opinion.
In Christianity, you're not required to blindly believe. Bible encourages everyone to make up their own mind. 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

These are great statements...
I would like to emphasize that Christians are not taught (there are always exceptions) to "blindly believe". What a GREAT scripture! (1 Thess. 5:21)
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Could it be that rather saying "idiolism to christianity" would be better said as "depending on the heart of a Christian person?" Because in one they have a cross which for another would be idolatry, in one they have a statue which another could see it as idolatry, in another they have a podium that only the speaker can approach which another can see it as idolatry....
And, likewise, non-Christians can see it either as idolatry or not...but for the most part, it is irrelevant to them. It's 'inside baseball' to those who are not playing that game.

on the other hand, Christians have long used the "it's idolatry" to destroy every relic or site of importance to any other religion and force acceptance of Christianity--with its crosses and crucifixes and churches and cathedrals and the Good Book that almost no one bothers to read or actually follow--on people who were quite happy following their own beliefs instead of having a new system thrust upon them.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And, likewise, non-Christians can see it either as idolatry or not...but for the most part, it is irrelevant to them. It's 'inside baseball' to those who are not playing that game.

on the other hand, Christians have long used the "it's idolatry" to destroy every relic or site of importance to any other religion and force acceptance of Christianity--with its crosses and crucifixes and churches and cathedrals and the Good Book that almost no one bothers to read or actually follow--on people who were quite happy following their own beliefs instead of having a new system thrust upon them.
I am reminded of Jesus who said, John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Points of interest (to me)

  1. He didn't say if you are thirsty I will come to you but rather "come to me". (There are some who thirst but don't want to come to him)
  2. He didn't say "I will force you to come to me" - the act of you coming to him is freewill
  3. He said "drink' - free will - some people come to him and don't want to drink.
Thanks for your post.
 
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Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Just to make this clear... I'm not a Jehovah Witness (as your conversation partner is).

I think God exists in reality, and Christians do not commit idolatry.
They don't worship the book, I think.

Sure they do!

As that's the only place their "god" exists.

"Thinking" something "exists" does not make it real. Many little children, and probably some so-called adults, believe in such things as vampires, ware-wolves, etc, but that doesn't make them real.

So they worship the bible because they have nothing else of their "god".

To answer the rest of your post:
Christians don't teach lies in general... and Jesus was real and not a myth, in my opinion.
In Christianity, you're not required to blindly believe. Bible encourages everyone to make up their own mind. 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

1. Sure they lie. About lots of things. Like God is a man for one, that's a silly primitive notion. From there the bible "teaches" all kinds of crazy lies that the Christians go around telling others like they are "facts" when they are not.

2. Sure they HAVE to blindly believe everything they are told and worship their "god" or be tortured thru-out all eternity.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
upload_2020-10-27_19-41-28.png

Middle English: from Old French idolatrie, based on Greek eidōlolatreia, from eidōlon (see idol) + -latreia ‘worship’.

Latria or latreia (also known as latreutical worship) is a theological term (Latin Latrīa, from the Greek λατρεία, latreia) used in Roman Catholic theology to mean adoration
plus:
ei·do·lon
/īˈdōlən/
noun
literary
noun: eidolon; plural noun: eidola; plural noun: eidolons
  1. an idealized person or thing.
  2. a specter or phantom.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Let's do it this way. Instead of refuting your claim that every last verse you cited was debunking the belief that Jesus is God...
I'll show you that the first three of your verses don't do your job of refuting the divine nature of Jesus.
Since the first three verses don't back up your claim, it makes sense to assume that the rest won't either. It's just a matter of time not having to go through every single verse in your long list spending hours in front of the computer just to show you in detail what I think.

that does not show that God cannot incarnate.

Jesus is no "fashion idol"

didn't do that.

So you see, none of your verses proved anything.
John 1:18, “No one has ever seen God.”

(People saw Jesus. Did they, or did they not? Simple question.)

John didn’t mean that, huh?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's not a difference.

Oh but it is.....when God commanded the building of the Temple and gave the most specific instructions about its construction.....you know it's important.....but when humans took it upon themselves to build an impressive edifice as a sort of "look at us", when the poor among them were starving.....its not the same.
God made sure that the poor were looked after in his law.....But like the Pharisees, the leaders of Christendom haven't shown that same kind of love and concern for the less fortunate among their members.

In first century Christianity, Christians took care of their own. They did not go out of their way to feed and take care of those in the general population. Imagine if the churches did that today....?

Everyone of these people who built these, believe they were doing so in honor to their gods, not as a form of idolatry, but a form of worship.

And for those who were doing it to worship false gods, does it matter to the true God if they did or didn't?
If the true God is YHWH, then all those shrines and idols are a waste of time and energy. No amount of devotion given is going to make their gods real.

Does the true God care about that? What did he do to his own people when they ventured off the path and into idolatry and the worship of false gods?
In the first century, how did the Christians help people to come to Christ? (Matthew 10:11-14)

The gods inspired them to build these, is the underlying commonality. They are functionally, doing the exact same things.

What "gods" would they be? According to the Bible, there is only one other 'god' who desires worship. How does this 'god' inspire anything? He does so by deception.....he always has. He has built up an empire of false worship, with himself being the same god, under different names, who inspires all false religion.
Whatever worship does not go to the true God, goes to the fake god by default.

God did not invent religion, man did under influence from this phony god whom Adam chose in Eden. (1 John 5:19)

First, Jesus didn't command anything regarding meeting places, or organizational structures, or church administration, or which bank you should put the money into, etc.. In fact, Jesus said nothing whatsoever about business administration. Nor for that matter, did he ever imagine starting a new religion.

Jesus was a Jew who, until the time of his execution, was under Jewish Law and his worship was in attendance at the same places as his fellow Jews worshipped....both at the Temple and the Synagogue. That would perhaps be the reason why he never mentioned any other buildings. He himself had no earthly home to call his own.

His "church" as you should know, was the mystical body of believers which transcends religious and ethnic boundaries. That was the core of his teaching, to see beyond religious and ethnic distinctions, where all are welcome, all are included, should they so desire.

I am afraid I know nothing of this "mystical" body of believers you speak of. I cannot find them in the Christian scriptures at all. The body of believers (both Jewish and Gentile) described in the Bible, were bound by Christ's teachings and met together in places where they worshipped their God, expounded on the teachings of his Christ, and trained their disciples for the work that Jesus assigned them. (Matthew 28:19-20) The core of his teachings were within the boundaries set by him. No one was permitted to bring their own ideas in.

As far as ornate and elaborate structures later being built in history in the name of Christendom, now we are talking about Christianity as a religious institution, not simply a mystical body of believers transcending religious and ethnic boundaries. Now it is a religious institution itself, with its own borders.

Christendom is not of God's creation. It does not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, and it will pick and choose those things it finds convenient, and ignore those things it finds impossible because they require God's spirit to accomplish.

Paul warned that in these "last days", certain personalities would be in evidence in a more pronounced way than before.
2 Timothy 3:1-5....
"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these."

"Holding a form of godliness" doesn't mean a lot to God if you are not worshipping him in the way he commands.

Jesus too warned that at the time of his return, the world would be in the same state as it was "in the days of Noah". A world suffocating with violence and immorality. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Conformity, is a poor-man's substitution for a real spiritual transformation.

"Conformity"? What is that? Were the Israelites conformists? Did they have to be? Were they punished if they failed to uphold the standards set by their God?

Conformity is another way of describing an organized group of people with a common goal and a common purpose. They need cohesion which requires common beliefs. It save a lot of angst trying to decide if you are actually living up to your own claims of discipleship. When God sets the standard, its easy to comply because you know what is expected of you....no more, no less. But compliance in and of itself is meaningless unless the same sentiment is embraced by all.

But you see, you are concentrating on "things" yourself. You're saying "No buildings" is the way to worship God, and they are saying "yes buildings". Both are focused on "things".

I did not say "No buildings is the way to worship God".....I said that a building is not essential, but when a building is used, it is to be expected that if Jesus was there, he would approve. He was a modest man with no real time for the finer things in life. He was about being with the people, educating them, helping them with their issues and seeing justice done for the downtrodden. He cured their sicknesses and gave them hope of something better to come. The "things" Jesus concentrated on were not "things".

Yes, coercion of others is against the Spirit of Christ. Shunning, for instance, is an evil that is used to silence others in the church, for instance. Shunning is a threat. God does not threaten his children. Only child abusers do that.

Coercion is definitely against the spirit of the Christian faith. No one was to be forced to comply with Jesus' teaching because that is not what God wants. He doesn't care about "performance"....he cares about where your worship is coming from.....your heart, or a sense of duty that means performance alone is rewarded.....we know it isn't.

But once you take that step of Christian baptism, you have committed yourself to God in front of witnesses to carry your load as a disciple of Christ. There are responsibilities and obligations attached that cannot be dismissed. Like a marriage to God, it involves vows of obedience to Christ's teachings. If a dedicated person steps out of line and refuses to be repentant, the obligation on the part of the Shepherds in the congregation was to "excommunicate" them......that meant no communication with that person, as a form of discipline. It is done in the hope of making that one realize what they have done in breaking their vow to uphold God's standards. ( 1 Corinthians 5:9-13) Removal from the congregation was to be expected. The door was never closed and they could come back like the Prodigal Son as long as they were contrite and humble....the Father waits with open arms.

God does not need to threaten his children...but he does warn them.....like any good parent, he always has.
Consequences always result when decisions are made.

When someone looks the Bible for their salvation, that if they obey all the rules, they follow the teachings of the elders, they don't question their authority, and so forth, all of that is idolatry.

It was never just about compliance to things written in God's word....although compliance with God's laws was always required....it was about whether the heart was in the compliance...whether one was secretly only agreeing to something on the surface to give a false impression to others....or whether a person was sincere about why they were complying because of being in complete agreement with God.

Its all about loving what God loves....and hating what God hates. (Amos 5:15)
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Sure they do!

As that's the only place their "god" exists.

"Thinking" something "exists" does not make it real. Many little children, and probably some so-called adults, believe in such things as vampires, ware-wolves, etc, but that doesn't make them real.

So they worship the bible because they have nothing else of their "god".



1. Sure they lie. About lots of things. Like God is a man for one, that's a silly primitive notion. From there the bible "teaches" all kinds of crazy lies that the Christians go around telling others like they are "facts" when they are not.

2. Sure they HAVE to blindly believe everything they are told and worship their "god" or be tortured thru-out all eternity.
I stay with my opinion, as God exists in reality, as I see it. Even if vampires, ware-wolves, etc aren't backed up by evidence.
It's presumption to say that Christians purportedly have nothing else for their God than the Bible. You don't have evidence to show us that God does not interfere with creation apart from the Bible. So it's presumption what you just stated.
Christians in general don't lie. I stay with my opinion here, too. I don't think it is a silly primitive notion that God became man in the flesh. Bible does not teach "all kinds of crazy lies" as you call it. I think it's truth.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
John 1:18, “No one has ever seen God.”

(People saw Jesus. Did they, or did they not? Simple question.)

John didn’t mean that, huh?
put it in lights of John 6:46,
not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

So if there is one exception to this rule... I suppose there is another, too. ;)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
put it in lights of John 6:46,
not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

So if there is one exception to this rule... I suppose there is another, too. ;)

The Father in this passage may not be refering to God.

Christ may return as the Father, guide us to all Truth and show the Father unto us.

Regards Tony
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
YHWH is not Jesus.
I didn't state nor imply Jesus is literally God, but the early and later Church believed and believes that Jesus was of the "essence" of God the Father, which is what the Catholic application of the Trinitarian concept states. Remember that Jesus said "the Father and I are One", but obviously meant in a figurative sense.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Sure they do!

As that's the only place their "god" exists.

"Thinking" something "exists" does not make it real. Many little children, and probably some so-called adults, believe in such things as vampires, ware-wolves, etc, but that doesn't make them real.

So they worship the bible because they have nothing else of their "god".

1. Sure they lie. About lots of things. Like God is a man for one, that's a silly primitive notion. From there the bible "teaches" all kinds of crazy lies that the Christians go around telling others like they are "facts" when they are not.

2. Sure they HAVE to blindly believe everything they are told and worship their "god" or be tortured thru-out all eternity.

I stay with my opinion, as God exists in reality, as I see it. Even if vampires, ware-wolves, etc aren't backed up by evidence.
It's presumption to say that Christians purportedly have nothing else for their God than the Bible. You don't have evidence to show us that God does not interfere with creation apart from the Bible. So it's presumption what you just stated.
Christians in general don't lie. I stay with my opinion here, too. I don't think it is a silly primitive notion that God became man in the flesh.

But an opinion does nothing to change the fact that the ONLY place the Christian "god" exists is in the bible.

Nor does an opinion change the fact that God never was, and never will be, a puny little man. Anyone who thinks God was, is, or even could be a man, knows nothing about God.

Bible does not teach "all kinds of crazy lies" as you call it. I think it's truth.

I take it you've never even read the WHOLE bible.

So there's nothing "crazy" about turning staffs into snakes, talking bushes, talking donkeys, iron chariots can defeat "god", "god" can go around impregnating physical women, the earth sits on pillars, etc?
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
In your opinion.

I prefer to see it as "And God said, let us make man in our image and in our likeness".

"us" and "our", so you worship many bible "gods"?

And BTW - That quote from the bible incorrect.

The true God is purely spiritual in nature, so it's our SOULS that were made in his SPIRITUAL image.

If you knew anything about your soul, you would know better than quote from a spiritually void book.
 
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