Question to Christians - 144,000 Start and Finish

Ehav4Ever · Oct 27, 2020

Questions to Christians:

According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?
According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?
- Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?
- If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?

Thanks.

Estro Felino · Oct 27, 2020

Many Christian theologians disagree on Revelation 14...
To me that chapter is pretty clear. That number is purely allegorical, and is calculated on the basis of the 12 tribes of Israel. And since they are on Sion, they are surely Jews who lived Christianly.
Whether they converted to Christianity or not (my personal humble opinion).
Then the Angel reveals the evangelization of Greeks and Romans, and then the fall of Pagan Rome (Babylon the Great).

exchemist · Oct 27, 2020

Ehav4Ever said:
Questions to Christians:

According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?

According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?

Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?

If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?

Thanks.

The JWs are the only people who take that number literally. The joke is that there are far more than 144k JWs already, and yet they still go round trying to covert more!

Revelation reads to me like an old man's acid trip. It needs to be read as a series of allegorical, dreamlike visions, not literally.

As a general observation, legalistic nitpicking over the New Testament is not usually a very productive endeavour.

Kenny · Oct 27, 2020

Ehav4Ever said:
Questions to Christians:

According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?

According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?

Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?

If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?

Thanks.

This will vary in interpretation... I understand it as being exactly what it says.... Jewish people from various tribes. For some, the understand it as the end-time evangelists that G-d has selected bringing into a full circle what He said from the beginning:

Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Fool · Oct 27, 2020

Ehav4Ever said:
Questions to Christians:

According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?

According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?

Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?

If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?

Thanks.

you're making absolute statements

according to christianity................

like judaism all christianity doesn't agree on subject and action. you have christian literalists and figurativists

the text from which you've taken the subject matter doesn't pertain to an exact number as much as it does to a figurative symbolism. the book you took it from is gnostic

kind of like the twelve tribes representing the zodiac in genesis 49 and the idea of wholeness/well roundedness 12 X 12 X 1000

it is my understanding that to enter the temple mount there are twelve gates

Brian2 · Oct 27, 2020

exchemist said:
The JWs are the only people who take that number literally. The joke is that there are far more than 144k JWs already, and yet they still go round trying to covert more!

Revelation reads to me like an old man's acid trip. It needs to be read as a series of allegorical, dreamlike visions, not literally.

As a general observation, legalistic nitpicking over the New Testament is not usually a very productive endeavour.

With the JWs the 144,000 are those who end up in heaven with Jesus ruling over the earth which is full of others who are saved but spend eternity on paradise earth.

exchemist · Oct 27, 2020

Brian2 said:
With the JWs the 144,000 are those who end up in heaven with Jesus ruling over the earth which is full of others who are saved but spend eternity on paradise earth.

True.

Eyes to See · Oct 27, 2020

There are actually 13 tribes. When we speak of 12 tribes we are talking of the ones that received a land inheritance. Now this is important. Because it helps us to see what the tribe of Levi represents, as they are not counted among the 12 that did receive land inheritance. The tribe of Levi was the priestly tribe and they were to be teachers of the law. The other 12 tribes were to furnish land and food for them.

Revelation 7 speaks of the 144,000. 12,000 out of 12 tribes of Israel. But if you look at the tribes they are NOT the same as the 12 tribes of Israel that received land inheritance.

The 12 tribes of Israel are listed in Numbers 1. If you compare them with Revelation 7 you will see that Joseph and Levi are not listed in among the 12 tribes of natural Israel. But they are listed in the tribes in Revelation 7.

Why are the listings different? Well we already saw one reason. Levi, although listed among the 12 tribes in Revelation 7, is not listed among the 12 tribes in Numbers 1. Also in Numbers 1 Joseph is not a tribe of Israel. He actually received a double inheritance, and his two children had tribes named after them, Manasseh and Ephraim.

So we already know that the tribal listing in Revelation 7 is not referring to the 12 tribes of natural Israel. It is actually a listing of the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel, which is the anointed congregation of Christians that will go to heaven to rule with Christ.

Remember that Levi was not listed among the 12 tribes of natural Israel because they did not receive a land inheritance? There is a symbolic reason to that. They represent the anointed Christians that do not receive an inheritance on earth. Their inheritance is in heaven. Thus they are not counted among those who will live on earth under God's kingdom rule. They will reign as kings and priests of Jehovah God with Jesus Christ.

Your question is what do you have to do to be a part of the 144,000? There are certain steps you can take that you have to take before you can be considered by God. The chosing itself is done by God and you have no choice in the matter. Notice what Paul says about those who are called and chosen:

(Romans 8:28-30) . . .We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.

Notice that God makes everything cooperate together for the ones who are called according to his purpose. This here is referring to the anointed Christian, of whom the number is 144,000. Now we are shown just what happens. Firstly the person is glorified. This is God opens his mind and heart to understand the good news of the Christ. He takes in knowledge of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ by studying the Bible with other Christians, and his heart is enlightened by means of God's holy spirit as he opens his mind and heart to understand spiritual truths.

So the first step is glorification, which is the understanding of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. After glorification, one repents. to repent means to change ones mind. One understands that he formerly was ignorant, a sinner, and spiritually dead on God's eyes. But he now knows who Jehovah God, and his son Jesus Christ are and exercise faith in the shed blood of Jesus' ransom sacrifice for our sins. This leads to conversion, that is a turning around from dead works to practicing good works. This leads dedication to God in prayer to do his will, and that is symbolized by a public deceleration of water baptism in the name of Jehovah God, his son Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit. At those point the person is declared righteous by God.

So far we have several steps: (1) taking in knowledge of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ by Bible Study, (2) repentance, (3) conversion, (4) dedication, (5) baptism. Obviously faith is invovled in each process in the scripture these are referred to as:

(1) glorification
(2) being declared righteous
(3) finally they are called and chosen

Finally the one who is declared righteous by means of water baptism who is called by God to go to heaven is given a token, and a crown in heaven is reversed for that person. Thus they are elevated to the heavenly places.

You cannot chose to call yourself to heaven any more than you can chose to be born. No human can earn the right. No human can chose for themselves. It is the free gift of God's mercy, Jesus talking about the anointing of holy spirit, which is the calling and choosing told Nicodemus:

(John 3:8) . . .The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.”

And Jehovah talking of the calling and choosing to heavenly life says:

(Romans 9:15, 16) . . .“I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.” 16 So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.

So it does not depend on ones desire to form a part of spiritual Israel, or to be a king in heaven. A person can not work out his own salvation as if they can earn the right to be called. It is a free gift. It is God's mercy. and no one can question the calling of God. For he is the one that does the choosing and he will chose whomever so he pleases.

(Ephesians 2:8, 9) . . .By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting.

This is God's gift, it is not a result of works. You cannot earn your way into the 144,000. The 144,000 are spiritual Israelites, anointed Christians, called to serve in heaven as adopted sons of God, brothers of Jesus Christ. That scripture I quoted above tells you that. Jesus was to be the firstborn among many brothers. This is a side-point, but God does not have brothers. Anyone thinking Jesus is God should study this scripture and really see the truth of the matter. Jesus is God's son. And all the 144,000 called to heaven are adopted sons of God, and Jesus' brothers! Jesus is the firstborn among many brothers! 144,000 of them!

In the first century it appears that all true Christians were anointed. Throughout the long period of apostasy there have always been some true anointed Christians on earth, but a very few. Today Jehovah has gathered a people together for his name and has called from among them people to go to heaven. Today the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on earth, and who are being called, for the calling has continued, are among Jehovah's Witnesses.

All the members of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are called, anointed members of the 144,000. Though there are many many thousands more among Jehovah's servants.
Jesus said that the called and chosen ones will be in all parts of the earth when he returns and calls them to heaven right before he wages war with wicked human society:

(Matthew 24:30, 31) . . .Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Muffled · Nov 2, 2020

Ehav4Ever said:
Questions to Christians:

According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?

According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?

Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?

If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?

Thanks.

I believe I don't answer for Christianity but I do have Jesus answer for me. To be in the 144,000 one must be an Israeli who believes Jesus is the Messiah.

I believe the 144,000 are the first fruit of the rapture and are gathered just before Armageddon.

I believe it is only Jewish tribes.

Muffled · Nov 2, 2020

Brian2 said:
With the JWs the 144,000 are those who end up in heaven with Jesus ruling over the earth which is full of others who are saved but spend eternity on paradise earth.

I believe there is no dichotomy. Both Jews and others will be in the clouds and back on earth later. The Bible does not single out JW's.

Muffled · Nov 2, 2020

exchemist said:
True.

I believe you mean it is true that they believe that however the belief is false.

exchemist · Nov 2, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe you mean it is true that they believe that however the belief is false.

Correct.

Brian2 · Nov 2, 2020

Eyes to See said:
There are actually 13 tribes. When we speak of 12 tribes we are talking of the ones that received a land inheritance. Now this is important. Because it helps us to see what the tribe of Levi represents, as they are not counted among the 12 that did receive land inheritance. The tribe of Levi was the priestly tribe and they were to be teachers of the law. The other 12 tribes were to furnish land and food for them.

Revelation 7 speaks of the 144,000. 12,000 out of 12 tribes of Israel. But if you look at the tribes they are NOT the same as the 12 tribes of Israel that received land inheritance.

The 12 tribes of Israel are listed in Numbers 1. If you compare them with Revelation 7 you will see that Joseph and Levi are not listed in among the 12 tribes of natural Israel. But they are listed in the tribes in Revelation 7.

Why are the listings different? Well we already saw one reason. Levi, although listed among the 12 tribes in Revelation 7, is not listed among the 12 tribes in Numbers 1. Also in Numbers 1 Joseph is not a tribe of Israel. He actually received a double inheritance, and his two children had tribes named after them, Manasseh and Ephraim.

So we already know that the tribal listing in Revelation 7 is not referring to the 12 tribes of natural Israel. It is actually a listing of the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel, which is the anointed congregation of Christians that will go to heaven to rule with Christ.

Remember that Levi was not listed among the 12 tribes of natural Israel because they did not receive a land inheritance? There is a symbolic reason to that. They represent the anointed Christians that do not receive an inheritance on earth. Their inheritance is in heaven. Thus they are not counted among those who will live on earth under God's kingdom rule. They will reign as kings and priests of Jehovah God with Jesus Christ.

Your question is what do you have to do to be a part of the 144,000? There are certain steps you can take that you have to take before you can be considered by God. The chosing itself is done by God and you have no choice in the matter. Notice what Paul says about those who are called and chosen:

(Romans 8:28-30) . . .We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.

Notice that God makes everything cooperate together for the ones who are called according to his purpose. This here is referring to the anointed Christian, of whom the number is 144,000. Now we are shown just what happens. Firstly the person is glorified. This is God opens his mind and heart to understand the good news of the Christ. He takes in knowledge of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ by studying the Bible with other Christians, and his heart is enlightened by means of God's holy spirit as he opens his mind and heart to understand spiritual truths.

So the first step is glorification, which is the understanding of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. After glorification, one repents. to repent means to change ones mind. One understands that he formerly was ignorant, a sinner, and spiritually dead on God's eyes. But he now knows who Jehovah God, and his son Jesus Christ are and exercise faith in the shed blood of Jesus' ransom sacrifice for our sins. This leads to conversion, that is a turning around from dead works to practicing good works. This leads dedication to God in prayer to do his will, and that is symbolized by a public deceleration of water baptism in the name of Jehovah God, his son Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit. At those point the person is declared righteous by God.

So far we have several steps: (1) taking in knowledge of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ by Bible Study, (2) repentance, (3) conversion, (4) dedication, (5) baptism. Obviously faith is invovled in each process in the scripture these are referred to as:

(1) glorification
(2) being declared righteous
(3) finally they are called and chosen

Finally the one who is declared righteous by means of water baptism who is called by God to go to heaven is given a token, and a crown in heaven is reversed for that person. Thus they are elevated to the heavenly places.

You cannot chose to call yourself to heaven any more than you can chose to be born. No human can earn the right. No human can chose for themselves. It is the free gift of God's mercy, Jesus talking about the anointing of holy spirit, which is the calling and choosing told Nicodemus:

(John 3:8) . . .The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.”

And Jehovah talking of the calling and choosing to heavenly life says:

(Romans 9:15, 16) . . .“I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.” 16 So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.

So it does not depend on ones desire to form a part of spiritual Israel, or to be a king in heaven. A person can not work out his own salvation as if they can earn the right to be called. It is a free gift. It is God's mercy. and no one can question the calling of God. For he is the one that does the choosing and he will chose whomever so he pleases.

(Ephesians 2:8, 9) . . .By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting.

This is God's gift, it is not a result of works. You cannot earn your way into the 144,000. The 144,000 are spiritual Israelites, anointed Christians, called to serve in heaven as adopted sons of God, brothers of Jesus Christ. That scripture I quoted above tells you that. Jesus was to be the firstborn among many brothers. This is a side-point, but God does not have brothers. Anyone thinking Jesus is God should study this scripture and really see the truth of the matter. Jesus is God's son. And all the 144,000 called to heaven are adopted sons of God, and Jesus' brothers! Jesus is the firstborn among many brothers! 144,000 of them!

In the first century it appears that all true Christians were anointed. Throughout the long period of apostasy there have always been some true anointed Christians on earth, but a very few. Today Jehovah has gathered a people together for his name and has called from among them people to go to heaven. Today the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on earth, and who are being called, for the calling has continued, are among Jehovah's Witnesses.

All the members of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are called, anointed members of the 144,000. Though there are many many thousands more among Jehovah's servants.
Jesus said that the called and chosen ones will be in all parts of the earth when he returns and calls them to heaven right before he wages war with wicked human society:

(Matthew 24:30, 31) . . .Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Is there any reason, apart from the teachings of the Watch Tower Society, that you see the scriptures you cite as applying only to a select number of Christians and not to all Christians?

Eyes to See · Nov 3, 2020

Brian2 said:
Is there any reason, apart from the teachings of the Watch Tower Society, that you see the scriptures you cite as applying only to a select number of Christians and not to all Christians?

The Bible's explanation of God's purpose for earth. It is replete with promises that the earth will remain forever and that righteous humans serving Jehovah will live forever on it. For example Psalm 37:11, 29; Psalm 104:5; Ecc 1:4; Matthew 5:5 and others.

All the scriptures that refer to the hope of going to heaven are about reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven over the earth. Also the Bible teaches that no human went to heaven before Jesus came to earth, and do not reign in heaven with Christ until he returns and establishes his kingdom over the earth for the 1,000 year rule. There is no need to have untold millions of people ruling as kings. The number God chose fit to chose seems a more appropriate number if you think about it.

Brian2 · Nov 3, 2020

Eyes to See said:
The Bible's explanation of God's purpose for earth. It is replete with promises that the earth will remain forever and that righteous humans serving Jehovah will live forever on it. For example Psalm 37:11, 29; Psalm 104:5; Ecc 1:4; Matthew 5:5 and others.

The Bible seem to show pretty much heaven is coming to earth. God is going to be present with His people on earth. Rev 21:1-4. The duality of heaven and earth will be done away with imo.

Eyes to See said:
All the scriptures that refer to the hope of going to heaven are about reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven over the earth.

Do you have any examples of this?

Eyes to See said:
Also the Bible teaches that no human went to heaven before Jesus came to earth, and do not reign in heaven with Christ until he returns and establishes his kingdom over the earth for the 1,000 year rule. There is no need to have untold millions of people ruling as kings. The number God chose fit to chose seems a more appropriate number if you think about it.

Does the Bible teach that Christ will reign in and from heaven, I can't remember where that is stated.

Deeje · Nov 3, 2020

Brian2 said:
Is there any reason, apart from the teachings of the Watch Tower Society, that you see the scriptures you cite as applying only to a select number of Christians and not to all Christians?

If you go to Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 you will see the contrast between a finite group and an infinite one. We believe that unless the finite number is literal (as all things with God are counted in specific numbers) it makes the statement meaningless.

Revelation 7:1-4....
"After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel".

Revelation 14:1-5 reveals that these ones were "bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God".

These are not literal Israel but "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)......a spiritual nation chosen by God to replace his wayward people who were serial covenant breakers all through their history. (Acts 15:14)
Once the Messiah had come, only those who accepted him were taken into the "new covenant" that Jesus inaugurated on the night before his death.

The "Israel of God" were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. These ones are taken "from among mankind", not from among Israel.
Jesus had already sealed Israel's fate. (Matthew 23:37-39) As a nation, they were "abandoned".....but individuals could come to Christ as many did after his death and resurrection. (Acts 2:32-42)

Then there is another group...unnumbered.
"After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

"In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."

This second, unnumbered group attribute salvation to God and the Lamb and are said to "come out of the great tribulation" cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. (Matthew 24:21) These are tribulation survivors who remain on earth to enjoy the blessings of the Kingdom. How do we know this?

Revelation 21:2-4...
"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

The chosen ones are seen bring their rulership to the earth, but they have become immortals in heaven...they have no need to dwell here in the flesh anymore, otherwise what was the point of transforming their mortal bodies into immortal spiritual ones?

You will notice too that God's "tent" is now with these earthly mortals and he will bring the blessing of the Kingdom to cancel out all the pain and suffering of the past....now all of that has "passed away"....even death.
Can mortals live forever? Yes they can. "The tree of life" guaranteed it. (Genesis 3:22-24)

Brian2 said:
The Bible seem to show pretty much heaven is coming to earth. God is going to be present with His people on earth. Rev 21:1-4. The duality of heaven and earth will be done away with imo.

Does the Bible teach that Christ will reign in and from heaven, I can't remember where that is stated

Jesus said he was going to heaven to "prepare a place" for his disciples so that where he was, they could be also. How did God lead his people in the days of ancient Israel? He supplied appointed men to guide and direct his people through those intermediaries.

God ruled from heaven, but his servants on earth were his human representatives.

Do you have any examples of this?

Revelation 20:6
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

Kings and priests are not needed for those in heaven because there is no sin there. These ones rule from heaven and act as priests for sinners on earth.

Eyes to See · Nov 5, 2020

Brian2 said:
Do you have any examples of this?

Here are a few of the scriptures:

(1 Corinthians 6:2) Or do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to try very trivial matters?

(Revelation 2:26, 27) And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, just as I have received from my Father.

(Revelation 3:21) To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

(Matthew 19:28) Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

(Revelation 2:26) And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations,

(Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.

Brian2 · Nov 5, 2020

Eyes to See said:
Here are a few of the scriptures:

(1 Corinthians 6:2) Or do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to try very trivial matters?

(Revelation 2:26, 27) And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, just as I have received from my Father.

(Revelation 3:21) To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

(Matthew 19:28) Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

(Revelation 2:26) And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations,

(Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.

>>>Eyes to see said: All the scriptures that refer to the hope of going to heaven are about reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven over the earth.
Brian2 said Do you have any examples of this?<<<

I see nothing in these verses about being in heaven. Are you sure that you have not read that into the verses?

Eyes to See · Nov 6, 2020

Brian2 said:
>>>Eyes to see said: All the scriptures that refer to the hope of going to heaven are about reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven over the earth.
Brian2 said Do you have any examples of this?<<<

I see nothing in these verses about being in heaven. Are you sure that you have not read that into the verses?

Very sure.

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ returned to heaven. And there he waited at his Father's right hand until the time came for him to begin ruling as king. He tells us that his adopted brothers will be spirit sons of God. They rule in heaven with Christ. Look...

When Jesus returned to heaven he put on an incorruptible and immortal spirit body which no human has ever seen or can ever see. Scripture tells us that he now dwells in unapproachable light:

"He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,  the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."-1 Timothy 6:15, 16.

Did you notice that scripture says that no man has seen Jesus or can see him? Not that we didn't see him when he came to earth, but in his spirit form in heaven it is impossible for a human to look upon him. But what of those who are called to rule as kings with Jesus Christ? They have to be in heaven. Notice they will see his face:

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.  Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 22:4, 5.

Also, they will not need lamplight or sunlight, because in the presence of Jehovah God in heaven Jehovah himself will illuminate them always with his glorious radiance which far outshines a million million suns. Notice these ones "will rule as kings forever and ever."

Every single scripture that refers to going to heaven has to do with the spirit adopted sons of God, Jesus' brothers.

Here is a sacred secret guarded in the Christ for long lasting times:

"It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.  The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.  And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one."-1 Corinthians 15:44-49.

This is referring to the spirit-adopted son of God. We are born as humans in the flesh, descendants of Adam. Now it talks about the "last Adam." The last Adam is Jesus Christ. This tells us that he became a life-giving spirit.

So there are two types of bodies referenced to here. A physical body, and a spiritual body. The first man, Adam, is from earth and made of dust. The second man, Jesus Christ, is from heaven. And just like Adam, we who have been called to heavenly spirit life, while on earth, have bodies of flesh, made of dust, we will also "bear the image of the heavenly one." When we are raised to heaven we will put off the mortal body of flesh and blood and become living spirits as Jesus Christ and his Father, and our adopted father, Jehovah God are.

Look it continues:

"But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,  in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”-1 Corinthians 15:50-55.

Flesh and blood, that is a mortal human made of dust, cannot go to heaven. Humans were made with bodies to live on earth. A human body will never be able to go to heaven. All who have been called to heavenly spirit life have to put off their human body. They must die. Then when we are resurrected it will be in incorruptible immortal spirit bodies. Those who are called to heaven are elevated to the divine plane of existence. They will always have the memories of their human life with them and that will be always a part of who they were. But they will no longer be human. They are now spirits in heaven with the divine form of Jehovah God. Thus they will think and act and talk as do the spirits in heaven. They will see as spirits do, and will travel as spirits do, and live as spirits do. They will not live on earth and live as humans do anymore.

But that they will rule as kings we have been told over and over in scripture. While it is 1,000 years they rule with Christ over the earth, their rule will be forever.

They will have power like that of Christ, to raise the dead back to life, to heal the sick, to tell you the truth, you have no idea the tremendous power they will wield. A mere human will be nothing in comparison to their glory and might.

Peter, writing his letter to the anointed Christian congregation gives us this assurance:

"Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time."-1 Peter 1:3-5.

Jehovah God calls a person to heavenly life, and he gives that person "a new birth," that is the hope of being resurrected as a spirit son of god in heaven, "to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved" in the heavens for such ones.

That Peter was talking to those who were to rule as kings in heaven with Jesus we know, he concludes his letter thusly:

"And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory."-1 Peter 5:4.

When Jesus Christ the chief shepherd comes to shepherd the nations with a rod of iron in his manifestation in heaven then we who have been called "will receive the unfading crown of glory." What is this crown? It is the royal rule:

"Now everyone competing in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Of course, they do it to receive a crown that can perish, but we, one that does not perish."-1 Corinthians 9:25.

Now Jesus gave a message to 7 congregations in Revelation 2, 3. Seven is a complete number so this figuratively would encompass not only those anointed in those seven congregations, but to the entire body of spirit-anointed Christians. The entire body of the 144,000. Now each of the congregations but one had problems they needed to correct. Nevertheless, Jesus ends each statement to each of the seven congregation with a promise to those who endure faithfully until the end of their earthly course. Notice some of these promises:

"To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’-Revelation 2:7.

The paradise of God is in heaven. Those who conquer will be with Jesus in heaven.

"The one who conquers will by no means be harmed by the second death.’"-Revelation 2:11.

Those called and chosen who remain faithful will not see the second death (that is the one from which there is no resurrection.)

"To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white pebble, and written on the pebble is a new name that no one knows except the one receiving it.’"-Revelation 2:17.

The one that conquers will receive some of the hidden manna, and a white pebble. And on that pebble a new name. This name is given to the person not as a human but as an immortal spirit in heaven.

"And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations, and he will shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, just as I have received from my Father. And I will give him the morning star. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’"-Revelation 2:26-29.

Notice that here the one that conquers is promised to that he will have authority over the nations, and just as Jesus will shepherd the nations with an iron rod that they will be broken to pieces, well the 144,000 spirit-anointed sons of God receive iron rods to also shepherd the nations.

That we are talking about those who have been granted to rule in heaven with Christ there is no mistake. He tells us:

"Keep holding fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown."-Revelation 3:11.

That crown is their kingship in heaven. Notice that that crown is reserved in heaven for the person who is called. But they will only receive it if they remain faithful, they conquer to the end, either of this system, or their life course on earth. If they become unfaithful, and fall away, such as Judas, that crown is removed, and it is offered to another that will remain faithful.

These are promises and assurances, but also warnings, that just because one is called, that does not guarantee his entry into heaven. The place is reserved for them, now they need to fight till the end. Many of those called have already done so. There are many thousands on earth who are still fighting to receive the crown which has bee promised them if they endure faithful until the end.

Jesus thusly promises:

"To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.  Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”-Revelation 3:21-22.

Those of the anointed, of which their will be 144,000, will rule with Christ. He promises that they will sit down on his throne with him. That it will be in heaven there is no doubt!:

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.  Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 22:4, 5.

Brian2 · Nov 10, 2020

Brian2 said: I see nothing in these verses about being in heaven. Are you sure that you have not read that into the verses?
Eyes to See said: Very sure.
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ returned to heaven. And there he waited at his Father's right hand until the time came for him to begin ruling as king. He tells us that his adopted brothers will be spirit sons of God. They rule in heaven with Christ. Look...

Eyes to See said:
When Jesus returned to heaven he put on an incorruptible and immortal spirit body which no human has ever seen or can ever see. Scripture tells us that he now dwells in unapproachable light:

"He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,  the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."-1 Timothy 6:15, 16.

Did you notice that scripture says that no man has seen Jesus or can see him? Not that we didn't see him when he came to earth, but in his spirit form in heaven it is impossible for a human to look upon him.

I looked up 1Tim 6:15,16 and notice it is about God who is also King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Syriac version reads "the blessed God".
The reality is that people have seen Jesus, so 1Tim 6:15,16 cannot be about Him. 1Tim 6 does not say, "no man has seen Him as an invisible spirit in heaven", that is something you are reading into the text.
Job 19: 24....by an iron stylus on lead, or chiseled in stone forever. 25 But I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He will stand upon the earth.26 Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God.…
Is Job going to see God or Jesus standing on the earth? OR maybe seeing Jesus is seeing God.
You see, we know that the Bible speaks of us seeing Jesus when He returns.
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him— even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
Every single scripture that refers to going to heaven has to do with the spirit adopted sons of God, Jesus' brothers.
If the WT interpretations end up meaning that other plain passages are contradicted then maybe it is wrong.

Eyes to See said:
But what of those who are called to rule as kings with Jesus Christ? They have to be in heaven. Notice they will see his face:

"But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.  Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."-Revelation 22:4, 5.

Also, they will not need lamplight or sunlight, because in the presence of Jehovah God in heaven Jehovah himself will illuminate them always with his glorious radiance which far outshines a million million suns. Notice these ones "will rule as kings forever and ever."

You should not start by assuming that those who are called to rule as kings with Jesus will be in heaven.
Read Rev 21 and notice that the new Jerusalem comes down to earth out of heaven and God is going to live there and have His throne there and the kings of the earth will bring their splendour to it.
The OT saints will be there.
Heb 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

I'll have to continue this reply.........

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