Are Shrines a Form of Idolatry?

Vinayaka said:

Thank you. Good point. No Hindu ever worships what Abrahamics call 'idols'. It's a foreign concept to us. We worship God and gods. Even when we worship the Guru, it's the godliness within the Guru. The statue has two uses, depending on what sect or school of Hinduism you're from. The first is as a reminder, something to focus on. The second, which is the definition of murthi, is to use that statue as a conduit to the energy we call God. (Just as copper conduct's electricoity, or sound waves can move sound) This second concept, mystical and magical in nature, is far away from an Abrahamic concept.

The Vedas, and more accurately the sacred Agamas go into great detail about this.

But thanks for bringing it up. It's usually me that brings it up in such threads.

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I think those that take the Abrahamic concept of idolatry to be a solely materialistic thing are often the biggest idolaters themselves (such as Protestant Christians and Salafi Muslims), both groups crassly anthropomorphize God.
Trinitarian Christianity from the offset has it's doctrinal defaults which contradict their "anti-idolatry" claims. Salafi Muslims have no excuse though, because the Qur'an is severely opposed to anthropomorphism (because God is nothing like an entity or a being, which would be angels, etc).

Idolatry, and the Islamic concept of Shirk (which explicitly designates the sin of giving any likeness to God, at all), would be best summed up as taking form as essence. Form is not essence.

You're discussing what is true or false. That's fine to do, but for me that part is irrelevant. I was hoping more regardless what is right or wrong, you understand why people worship in temples and have objects of worship in their given faith traditions. All. Religions have this to some degree or another.

Deeje said:

There is no comparison. A physical Bible is not an object of worship....for Christians, it is an instruction manual on how to worship. How can I make that clearer?

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The bible is not just "any" book and you base your life on the bible; so, yes. It is a sacrament and it's considered an object of worship.

I understand you "and" I am saying that because you put the book above other books that's criteria in itself that it is a tool or object of worship just as beads and rituals.

Deeje said:

This thread is about shrines and their significance in different religions. It is about examining the connection of them with all the religions that use them. It has to have a common origin....or is a corruption of something God originally instituted. This is what I am trying to determine here.

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Do you want to know the connection to tell them that they are wrong or do you genuinely want to know more about it despite the differences?

You already decided who is right or wrong, so what's your motive?

Deeje said:

What is the Eucharist?

The new covenant instituted by Christ on the night before his death was a replacement for the old covenant as it was prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. It replaced the Jewish Passover for Christians because Jesus became the literal Passover Lamb whose blood was shed to fulfill the law and save those who followed God’s instructions. On the original Passover night, God’s instructions had to be followed to the letter. Unless the blood of the lamb was on your doorpost, the angel of death would not “pass over” your house.

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I was scared to bring that up but was using that as an example since I'm most familiar with that. I can't speak for Hindus, Pagans, Muslims, etc in their view of how rituals, objects of worships, and tools are used but in the general comparison they are used for religious devotion just as you worship god. Each person has their thing in how they want to honor their god(s) and so forth.

I'm sure you open enough to understand it without knocking it, right?

Deeje said:

The “Eucharist” (Christendom’s version of the Last Supper) is not a means of communicating with God, but was instituted as a memorial to Christ’s death. It was to be celebrated once a year as the Passover was.....as a commemoration. The taking of the bread and wine are a symbol of being a party to that new covenant and becoming part of the heavenly Kingdom arrangement.....a co-ruler with Christ. Not all are chosen for that role. The majority of Christians will be beneficiaries of that kingdom arrangement.

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Okay....

Deeje said:

God’s word is his communication with us. All we need to know is in the instruction manual.....we just have to know what it says, and follow it exactly.

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That's just like other religions who may commune with god by how they treat and honor statues of their chosen gods and goddesses. I see no difference in the intent regardless the religion.

Deeje said:

You keep saying that as if you keep repeating it will somehow make it true.....the Bible is not an object of worship.....scripture has been God’s means of communication and instruction, all through history....it's the only way he communicates with his worshippers. Though he has provided interpreters down through the ages to assist us in putting his instructions into practice. There is a vast difference between something God has given us, and something that comes from man's invention......I hope you can appreciate that. When we start introducing things from our own imagination, that is when we can cross the line. Shrines I believe are one of those things, especially for Christians.....making sacred that which God has not sanctioned.

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No one is talking about what is true or not (at least, I'm not. I'm not religious, remember?)

I know you dislike idol worship and everything. I assume this thread was more introspective not to prove people are wrong or have corrupted religions. Even in a debate thread, I'd think some insight would be expected for questions about other people's faiths and practices?

Deeje said:

Those for whom it suits their mode of worship...that is their choice....idolatry means nothing to them but a way to worship their gods....so be it. Adopting modes of worship from other religions was not permissible for God's people however.

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Exactly. They are pretty indifferent to it, though. Mostly christians tend to care about what others do, from what I gather on RF (and christians I speak with in person)

Deeje said:

Your comparison doesn’t hold true....IMO. Christians are warned NOT to have idols....they are admonished to follow what the Bible says....for their own benefit....no more, no less. That excludes idolatry in any form. If a Christian steps outside the boundaries of God’s instructions and incorporate things that he has forbidden, then they are on their own.....they have left God, so he will leave them. How is that not obvious? Look at Christendom! What a chaotic, divided, impotent mess! Where do you see God among them?

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Of course it isn't true from a christian point of view. That was my first reply to you. According to christianity, idolism is false.

But everyone on the thread knows what you think of idolism, so I'm sure there is something a bit more to your questions than to knock the people's ideas you disagree with, hm?

Unveiled Artist said:

According to christianity, idolism is false.

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As already stated, trinitarian Christianity IS idolatry.

Unitarian Christianity is not idolatry (and therefore pays respect back to the religion of the Israelites and Prophets, in adherence to only worshiping YHWH, and not the trinity with Jesus as the worshiped man-god-superhero-savior).

SeekerOnThePath said:

As already stated, trinitarian Christianity IS idolatry.

Unitarian Christianity is not idolatry (and therefore pays respect back to the religion of the Israelites and Prophets, in adherence to only worshiping YHWH, and not the trinity with Jesus as the worshiped man-god-superhero-savior).

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I just know christianity teaches worship one god and anyone who doesn't worship that "one" god is committing idolatry. So, since trinitarians believe jesus is god, it's not idolatry because they are worshiping the one god and all other gods are false-object, person, and otherwise.

Deeje said:

It seems as if shrines are associated with many different religions.....so what is a shrine and what do they mean for the people who visit them?


China

Japan

Iran

Lourdes

Bankok

Baha'i

Tibet

Italy

Israel

Mecca

Here are some definitions......

“A place of religious devotion or commemoration, such as:

• A place where devotion is paid to a deity or deities, as in Shinto.
• The tomb of a saint or other venerated person.
• A location where an important event in the life of a holy person is thought to have occurred.

A container or receptacle for sacred relics; a reliquary.

A site hallowed by association with a revered person or object or with an important event.

Any site or structure used in worship or devotion; esp., an area or a temple or templelike structure used in the worship of one or more deities.

The definition of a shrine is a holy or sacred place, or a small area or monument dedicated to someone, or a place known as the site of a religious occurrence or a historical event.

A holy or sacred place dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, or similar figure of awe and respect, at which said figure is venerated or worshipped.

A case, box, or receptacle, especially one in which are deposited sacred relics, as the bones of a saint.

A niche or other setting for a statue, picture, or other object arousing or designed to arouse devotion.

A small area or structure arranged for private devotion.

A place revered as the place of death or burial of a saint or other venerable personage.

A place revered as the site of a reported supernatural apparition, miraculous occurrence, etc.

Any of certain churches or chapels often visited by pilgrims, specif. by those seeking special spiritual help, cures, etc.

A place or structure esteemed for its importance or centrality as in history or the arts.

A place or structure designed as a memorial to someone or something.

A place or object hallowed from its history or associations.

A shrine of art.”

SHRINE | 19 Definitions of Shrine - YourDictionary

Why do people need to see images, or to have 'holy places' in order to worship their gods?
Why is this such a universal thing?

Thoughts?

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The answer would depend entirely on the person you ask, and the particular version of the particular religion the person is in.

Unveiled Artist said:

I just know christianity teaches worship one god and anyone who doesn't worship that "one" god is committing idolatry. So, since trinitarians believe jesus is god, it's not idolatry because they are worshiping the one god and all other gods are false-object, person, and otherwise.

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YHWH and Jesus are different things.

YHWH is the God of the Torah, Jesus is a man who lived in the 1st century who is deified by Christians.
Remember Deuteronomy 13. It warns against such things.
I already quoted earlier in this thread but Isaiah 42:8 does say that "I will not give my glory to another".
This is aside from all the mentions in the Tanakh (old testament) that there is no other God.

Deeje said:

The thing is...if you purport to be a Christian, then you must stick to Jesus' teachings. There were no statues or beads or repetitious prayers in original Christianity. These things did not come from Jesus. The "tools" for prayer and study were intimately involved with God's spirit. He can be worshipped anywhere...even in a jail cell. There are no physical substitutes.

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One of the problems with that almost all Christians think that ONLY THEY have figured out the "real" teachings of Jesus, then they go around trying to force others into believing ONLY THEIR beliefs are the "real" beliefs, and everybody else has it all "wrong". That's why there are over 30,000 Christian denominations.

Deeje said:

TI have no idea what you mean by that. You are often so far off the mark in your responses that you completely lose me. The Bible is God's instruction manual.....we follow it because we are told by Jesus that sticking to it is the only guarantee of success in life. That success has nothing to do with this world or what it values.

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Oh really!

So your "god" has given you an:

"instruction manual.....we follow it because we are told by Jesus that sticking to it is the only guarantee of success in life"

Funny, I've never seen anything in the bible about planning a financial future, the benefits of getting a college education, saving for retirement, how to raise children, how to save money on one's tax return, or anything else needed for a successful life.

Deeje said:

The God who wrote the instruction manual is the legitimate object of our worship.....is that rocket science?

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And yet your "god" only exists as a myth in your book, so it always comes back to worshiping the book.

Deeje said:

We communicate with God through prayer.....God communicates with us through his written word.
What would we understand about God or the right way to worship if we did not have the scriptures?

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Why, I had no idea the bible was such a magic book!!!

So you pray to your "god", then you can open the magic book and he has his answer to your prayers written there just for YOU!!

How come nobody else has ever mentioned it could do this?

Deeje said:

If you want to throw the instruction manual out and do things your own way, God will let you....that is your choice to make....he will not interfere.

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What?

That's not what all the other bibles claim!

They all claim that the Christian "god" will torture them thru-out all eternity if they don't blindly obey and worship him.

Deeje said:

God put Jesus "high up"....the apostles put Jesus "high up".....why? Because he was the second greatest personage in existence next to his God and Father.

We put Jesus "high up" because he is the King of God's Kingdom.....do you have a problem with that?

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Oops...

That's the "old school" interpretation of the Jesus myth. The newer version they are pushing now is that Jesus IS their "god".

You really need to go back and get re-indoctrinated to the new lie they are teaching about God.

thomas t said:

why is that idolatry. No it's not, I think. The almighty God can do anything. Whatever he wants, even come to earth in the form of a human being.

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As soon as anyone thinks of God as a puny little "man", they will NEVER understand the true spiritual nature of the true God.

Deeje said:

When can endowing an object or a place, step over into idolatry do you think?
When does the sentiment become worship?

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It becomes worship when you believe that a deity is there, or the representation of a deity.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

It seems to me that the whole concept of "idolatry" is nothing more than an Abrahamic invention to let their adherents look down on other religions.

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I hope it's not.
In my opinion, it's not meant to be looking down on the rest.
To me, it's more about not letting resources go elsewhere.
In the biblical sense in my interpretation, every sacrifice you make to other gods... it's lost money and lost attention basically.

Also, when God made the Israelites escape slavery in Egypt for instance, it's dishonest to later credit god xy for that, if you believe the Bible account is right.

In my view, the whole Abrahamic idea of "idolatry" is a strawman argument, showing that they don't know much about the reasoning behind why people of other faiths use revere objects, as they haven't approached the actual practitioners to seek understanding. Their view of what other faiths believe is overly simplistic to such an extent that they do not see the similarities between their religion and those they consider "pagan".

Unveiled Artist said:

You're discussing what is true or false. That's fine to do, but for me that part is irrelevant. I was hoping more regardless what is right or wrong, you understand why people worship in temples and have objects of worship in their given faith traditions. All. Religions have this to some degree or another.

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I am hoping to find the common denominator......since shrines and objects of worship are found in so many of the world's religions and are accepted without question.....if there is one God who is the Creator of all, then somewhere back in the past, the seed of this idea germinated in man.....but it grew in so many gardens after that, including "Christianity" (or more correctly Catholicism).....so what is that suggesting to you?

What constitutes a shrine......?

And why are images such a common part of worship outside of Judaism, Islam and original Christianity (as opposed to the adoption of later Catholic statuary) but found throughout the world in non-Abrahamic religions?

Why did Israel succumb to idolatry? And why did Catholicism do the same when they both had God's word to warn them not to do that?

Deeje said:

It seems as if shrines are associated with many different religions.....so what is a shrine and what do they mean for the people who visit them?


Baha'i

Here are some definitions......

“A place of religious devotion or commemoration, such as:

• A place where devotion is paid to a deity or deities, as in Shinto.
• The tomb of a saint or other venerated person.
• A location where an important event in the life of a holy person is thought to have occurred.

A container or receptacle for sacred relics; a reliquary.

A site hallowed by association with a revered person or object or with an important event.

Any site or structure used in worship or devotion; esp., an area or a temple or templelike structure used in the worship of one or more deities.

The definition of a shrine is a holy or sacred place, or a small area or monument dedicated to someone, or a place known as the site of a religious occurrence or a historical event.

A holy or sacred place dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, or similar figure of awe and respect, at which said figure is venerated or worshipped.

A case, box, or receptacle, especially one in which are deposited sacred relics, as the bones of a saint.

A niche or other setting for a statue, picture, or other object arousing or designed to arouse devotion.

A small area or structure arranged for private devotion.

A place revered as the place of death or burial of a saint or other venerable personage.

A place revered as the site of a reported supernatural apparition, miraculous occurrence, etc.

Any of certain churches or chapels often visited by pilgrims, specif. by those seeking special spiritual help, cures, etc.

A place or structure esteemed for its importance or centrality as in history or the arts.

A place or structure designed as a memorial to someone or something.

A place or object hallowed from its history or associations.

A shrine of art.”

SHRINE | 19 Definitions of Shrine - YourDictionary

Why do people need to see images, or to have 'holy places' in order to worship their gods?
Why is this such a universal thing?

Thoughts?

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Another place?

I don't think it is necessarily what is constructed, but what a man/woman does with it in their heart.

God commanded Moses to make a pole with a snake on it and whoever looked at it was healed.

That same pole was later worshipped and was destroyed.

Difference? What they did with it in their heart?

Certainly altars (memorial) were made by Abraham too and God had no problem with it.

SeekerOnThePath said:

@The Artis Magistra

One hilarity I get from the really crazy Christians (not on this forum so far though) is the claim that Muslims worship the Kaaba. It's absolutely absurd. Anyway, I know you're Quran-alone (or whatever) but still...

I always throw this back at them.

Christians (the crazy ones), by their own logic worship their worship bands:

However of course, as we know from the Qur'an itself, it's the same idea of Mizrah in Judaism.
Why Do We Face East When Praying? Or Do We? - How to calculate mizrach
Jews pray facing Jerusalem.
Qur'an addresses this in Surah Baqarah.

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Is there something wrong with using your hands?

With Love,

Crazy Christian.

thomas t said:

God sticks to his word, I think. He stays the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
I think Bible is infallible and inerrant and this is not idolatry, I think.

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I agree! You can't write it on your heart if you can't read it with your eyes.

Unveiled Artist said:

If you compare this to other religious items, then it's pretty much the same context. The Bible, Statues, Eucharist, regardless, are all physical and in some cases the Statues and rituals are just as important as the physical bible is for christians.

Tools, instruction mannerisms, places of worship, religion has a lot of idols regardless if it's christianity, Hinduism, Paganism, or whatever.

I'm drawing a comparison with the physical bible and, say, physical statues. It's only idiolism to christianity because god is the first to be worshiped. However, regardless if it's right or wrong in christian eyes, all religions to some extent have rituals, objects of worship, tools, people, and teachers they put at a status or divinity of some sort. Their individual teaches about other people's religions and morals doesn't change that.

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Could it be that rather saying "idiolism to christianity" would be better said as "depending on the heart of a Christian person?" Because in one they have a cross which for another would be idolatry, in one they have a statue which another could see it as idolatry, in another they have a podium that only the speaker can approach which another can see it as idolatry....

SeekerOnThePath said:

I think those that take the Abrahamic concept of idolatry to be a solely materialistic thing are often the biggest idolaters themselves (such as Protestant Christians and Salafi Muslims), both groups crassly anthropomorphize God.

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In your opinion.

I prefer to see it as "And God said, let us make man in our image and in our likeness".

KenS said:

Could it be that rather saying "idiolism to christianity" would be better said as "depending on the heart of a Christian person?" Because in one they have a cross which for another would be idolatry, in one they have a statue which another could see it as idolatry, in another they have a podium that only the speaker can approach which another can see it as idolatry....

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Yes. I think it is a matter of perspective and connection one has with the object. If I played devil's advocate, say we use the Eucharist since catholics worship the Eucharist rather than beads and statues (they're not god). If god said don't worship anything and anyone other than himself, would he think that catholics are worshiping bread and wine as idols? (That's how it's assumed by some christians that catholics worship the physical bread and wine rather than that being the essence in which communion is defined by).

Would god know the difference to be the judge whether one person's idol is another person's sacrament?

Deeje said:

I am hoping to find the common denominator......since shrines and objects of worship are found in so many of the world's religions and are accepted without question.....if there is one God who is the Creator of all, then somewhere back in the past, the seed of this idea germinated in man.....but it grew in so many gardens after that, including "Christianity" (or more correctly Catholicism).....so what is that suggesting to you?

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Well, I'll assume god exists for the sake of the question. Since there is only one creator and many religions have a creator, I couldn't define it as a creator from the christian religion. Noneless any other religion. So, I'll say the creator is such because he's the source of the world but not define him in any christian way (none less call it a he).

So, it's easier to see the connection if you don't compare it to the creator of the bible as the soul definition of what you're trying to understand.

Take away the bible and other scriptural books since that's not universal. If the creator is the, well, creator of everything and everyone, our religions would be just describing the creator through our own traditions, actions, our sharing the word, our using beads in prayer, and so forth. They are just individual man's ways to connect with the divine. The only dictations and "rules" of what's idolatry and what is not is based on individual religion's criteria. It's not a headfast rule for all religions to abide by.

Deeje said:

What constitutes a shrine......?

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Think of the most basic shrine is that of abraham's altar. He could have attempted to sacrifice Isaac anywhere. However, he was told to create an altar and thereby (like the Levites and their carrying the sacrifice-I believe-in the tent. If I remember correctly, those who went in without permission turned to dust or was killed somehow). Abraham "entered" a sacred space in front of the shrine to do what his god told him to do.

Whether that space then was out in the wilderness or in a building, it's not the gold, building, and cement that makes the space and altar a meditative setting but the space "in front of god" in which people come for "their choice" to pray and commune with like believers or with their god(s) in other faiths. Shrines, temples, etc are the "spaces" in which one creates to pray. The actual tools and things in the shrine help with or supplement their prayers but not all religions see them as the prayer itself.

Deeje said:

And why are images such a common part of worship outside of Judaism, Islam and original Christianity (as opposed to the adoption of later Catholic statuary) but found throughout the world in non-Abrahamic religions?

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I think it's because we are all human and find ways to connect to the divine(s) in however we choose to or are taught to and how to see it. I don't see christianity, judaism, islam any different from paganism, hinduism, etc when it comes to ritual, traditions, and intentions of worship.

Christianity shouldn't be the common denominator or criteria to understand other religion's intentions, traditions, and tools used in worship. I think that's what's throwing you off.

Deeje said:

Why did Israel succumb to idolatry? And why did Catholicism do the same when they both had God's word to warn them not to do that?

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I'm not sure about Isreal. They "probably" couldn't understand worshiping a god that couldn't relate to in the physical world. I'm not sure where the "spirit" of god came from that has all of the sudden been striped from anything and anyone existing in the physical universe.

To me, the more abstract people make god, the more new age it becomes. While that's not bad in itself, the world progresses, I'm not sure many christians see it. It's almost as you guys JW, Catholics, whoever, have so many interpretations of god that to make it one object would cause wars (which they did).

Why does god need to be mystic, a force, energy, breathe, or so have you in order for it to be the right god?

As for catholicism, I'm not sure. I went to a somewhat liberal church where there wasn't emphasis, if any, on anything else but the Eucharist, Christ passion, and physical communion. No focus on Mary and the Saints or anything like that. So, I was able to see "the point" without being blinded by the gold and statues as if They were the point not christ himself.

Unveiled Artist said:

Would god know the difference to be the judge whether one person's idol is another person's sacrament?

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I think so...

1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (Emphasis mine)