God sticks to his word, I think. He stays the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
I think Bible is infallible and inerrant and this is not idolatry, I think.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Are Shrines a Form of Idolatry?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
I think Bible is infallible and inerrant and this is not idolatry, I think.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
This is a heavy topic which is very nuanced because different cultures and religions have different reasons for revering relics. Certain cultures see certain objects as having intrinsic spiritual power, some religions say that gods indwell objects to be in the presence of their followers, others believe that all objects have a spirit because everything has a physical and spiritual aspect. In the Bible the old testament does not say that God indwells objects specifically, but altars were placed in patriarchal times for symbolic significance, and the Ark of the Covenant was an object that had spiritual significance. The Kaaba in Islam had pagan significance before Islam but I am not sure why muslims perform a ritual around it, as many muslims I have spoken to say that they just do it to because they were commanded to. But there are probably muslims on this forum that can explain it.It seems as if shrines are associated with many different religions.....so what is a shrine and what do they mean for the people who visit them?
ChinaJapan
IranLourdes
BankokBaha'i
TibetItaly
IsraelMecca
Here are some definitions......
“A place of religious devotion or commemoration, such as:
A container or receptacle for sacred relics; a reliquary.
- A place where devotion is paid to a deity or deities, as in Shinto.
- The tomb of a saint or other venerated person.
- A location where an important event in the life of a holy person is thought to have occurred.
A site hallowed by association with a revered person or object or with an important event.
Any site or structure used in worship or devotion; esp., an area or a temple or templelike structure used in the worship of one or more deities.
The definition of a shrine is a holy or sacred place, or a small area or monument dedicated to someone, or a place known as the site of a religious occurrence or a historical event.
A holy or sacred place dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, or similar figure of awe and respect, at which said figure is venerated or worshipped.
A case, box, or receptacle, especially one in which are deposited sacred relics, as the bones of a saint.
A niche or other setting for a statue, picture, or other object arousing or designed to arouse devotion.
A small area or structure arranged for private devotion.
A place revered as the place of death or burial of a saint or other venerable personage.
A place revered as the site of a reported supernatural apparition, miraculous occurrence, etc.
Any of certain churches or chapels often visited by pilgrims, specif. by those seeking special spiritual help, cures, etc.
A place or structure esteemed for its importance or centrality as in history or the arts.
A place or structure designed as a memorial to someone or something.
A place or object hallowed from its history or associations.
A shrine of art.”
SHRINE | 19 Definitions of Shrine - YourDictionary
Why do people need to see images, or to have 'holy places' in order to worship their gods?
Why is this such a universal thing?
Thoughts?
So, my conclusion: I think that people revere objects because it is the natural step in humanities pursuit to understand the world, as before the technology and philosophy is around for us to examine things properly, humanity would have seen the world around them as being a place where the unexplained happens for unknown reasons, and they would naturally want to philosophically have answers in order to affect and control the world around them. So in the world in which natural forces are out of mans control, humans think that objects and gods can help them control these forces and affect outcomes in their lives.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Be prepared.
Christianity bases it's premise on Judaism's prophecies (again, on premise) regarding the Moschiach/Messiah/Christ. It relies on such things as a basis for the truth claims attributed to Jesus.
In the Old Testament (properly known by Jews as the Tanakh), there is One God which is transcendent, known by the tetragrammaton, or YHWH (this is erroneously sometimes pronounced as Yahweh or Jehovah, both of which are factually incorrect).
In the manner of Christianity's symbiotic relationship that it shares with the Tanakh, even though it wants to be it's own thing, such epistemic and ontological premises are necessary to be retained in continuity to havea coherent and non-contradicting worldview/belief system/religion.
Now here is the dumb of relevant quotes which trample upon and nullify Christian trinitarian beliefs, whether you choose to accept what the Tanakh says or not:
“You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:3-6)
All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together. The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house
(Isaiah 44:9-20)
Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves any gods of cast metal: I am the Lord your God.
(Leviticus 19:4)
Pay attention to all that I have said to you, and make no mention of the names of other gods, nor let it be heard on your lips.
(Exodus 23:13)
“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
(Leviticus 23:19)
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
(Hosea 11:9)
Don't forget Deuteronomy 13:
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder,
and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.
You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
(Deuteronomy 13:1-11)
What does the Old Testament say about God, specifically?:
"To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:4-6)
'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19)
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, he is God!, who formed the earth and made it, he established it;
he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited! “I am the Lord, and there is no other (Isaiah 45:18)
“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’ (Isaiah 45:22)
To whom can you compare Me Or declare Me similar? To whom can you liken Me, So that we seem comparable? (Isaiah 46:5)
Bear in mind what happened of old; For I am God, and there is none else, I am divine, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah 46:9)
For the sake of My name I control My wrath; To My own glory, I am patient with you, And I will not destroy you. See, I refine you, but not as silver; I test you in the furnace of affliction. For My sake, My own sake, do I act— Lest [My name] be dishonored! I will not give My glory to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am He—I am the first, And I am the last as well. My own hand founded the earth, My right hand spread out the skies. I call unto them, let them stand up. (Isaiah 48:9-13)
"O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)
TBC...
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Cont.
The New Testament:
Jesus explicitly teaching the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4 - a mirror of Surah Ikhlas ayah 1 of the Qur'an, which is the doctrine of Tawhid)
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment greater than these.” “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. (Mark 12:28-34)
(next bit is from an article, it's a good one in terms of accessibility and being straight to the point):
1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.
2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.
3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.
4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”
5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.
6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.
7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.
8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”
9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.
10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”
11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)
12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.
13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See
James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”
14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation.
Let's do it this way. Instead of refuting your claim that every last verse you cited was debunking the belief that Jesus is God...
I'll show you that the first three of your verses don't do your job of refuting the divine nature of Jesus.
Since the first three verses don't back up your claim, it makes sense to assume that the rest won't either. It's just a matter of time not having to go through every single verse in your long list spending hours in front of the computer just to show you in detail what I think.
that does not show that God cannot incarnate.
Jesus is no "fashion idol"
didn't do that.
So you see, none of your verses proved anything.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The God who wrote the instruction manual is the legitimate object of our worship.....is that rocket science?
If you compare this to other religious items, then it's pretty much the same context. The Bible, Statues, Eucharist, regardless, are all physical and in some cases the Statues and rituals are just as important as the physical bible is for christians.
Tools, instruction mannerisms, places of worship, religion has a lot of idols regardless if it's christianity, Hinduism, Paganism, or whatever.
I'm drawing a comparison with the physical bible and, say, physical statues. It's only idiolism to christianity because god is the first to be worshiped. However, regardless if it's right or wrong in christian eyes, all religions to some extent have rituals, objects of worship, tools, people, and teachers they put at a status or divinity of some sort. Their individual teaches about other people's religions and morals doesn't change that.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The physical bible included...
That's the same logic in other religions. Communicate with god through prayer, god communicates, through say, the Eucharist (Christ).
That's why physical scriptures are idols just as in other religions. You are using it as an object of worship and through the physical bible is the only way you hear christ "talking back." Regular books just doesn't have that type of power as religious associate with their religious scriptures, rituals, and objects.
You don't have to "turn it" on me. I'm just discussing this with you. I don't have a problem with any religion putting anything or anyone "up high."
Christians have idols (in the object or person of worship sense of the term) just as other religions. It's a comparison not a religious attack.
It seems to me that the whole concept of "idolatry" is nothing more than an Abrahamic invention to let their adherents look down on other religions.
You have your history backward. Note my highlighting:
church | Origin and meaning of church by Online Etymology Dictionary
In fairness, it isn't just that. Monotheism is to no small degree an unnatural state of mind for humans, so to speak - in order to maintain it, one has to very strictly guard against "regressing" back into polytheism. Making strict rules about "idolatry" is one of those guard rails these traditions create for themselves to avoid doing that.
Regardless, I'm definitely not going to be following @Deeje down the rabbit hole of historical revisionism. I gave them their explanation of why sacred sites are sacred, and apparently Abrahamics existed before Paganisms somehow and they copied monotheists, so... I'm not even going to attempt to square that circle.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
A shrine is a special place set aside for doing one's sadhana (spiritual practices)
They just enjoy to do it that way ... they do not need to (if you take 'holy place' away, they won't die ... they find another way to worship)
After all humans don't differ that much from other humans
Some people enjoy to make beautiful things. Most shrines are beautiful and seeing beauty creates serene feelings. I rather see shrines than tanks or other weapons of destruction. Of course when you are in war and need to destroy the enemy then nukes will be more useful. But I rather would like my enemy to change his mind and come to visit shrines then start a war.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Try for yourself. Close your eyes and wait till you see no imagines for a period of ca. 10 minutes. Are you able to do that?
Most people are not able to "not see" images. It takes a lot of practice to overcome this attachment to "see images"
People usually want/need a place to assembly. I don’t think it is idolatry, if the building is not worshiped.
I don't believe in any such concept as "idolatry". That's an Abrahamic concept used to demonize other religious practices, so I'm cutting that word out of my vocabulary. I certainly would not call images of the holy Gods and Heroes "idols". That would be very insulting. I'm glad Hindus still call their sacred images murtis.
Last edited:
Weird comment from a Christian who believes that Jesus is still alive in heaven.
Your beliefs do not match up with actual history. The Bible is not a literal history book. Wow. Yahweh was originally a Canaanite deity. He was basically a war deity associated with storms, mountains and volcanos. El was the head of the pantheon and apparently Yahweh was one of his sons. This is known fact, not an opinion. We find plenty of evidence of this in the Jewish Bible, where their polytheistic origins show through and they haven't redacted it. We know a fair bit about how Judaism and the Jewish people came into existence and it's not how the Bible said. There was never any genocide of the Canaanites because the Jews came from the Canaanite population. Yahweh's cult overpowered the cults of the other deities and eventually, through royal backing, Yahweh became the national and then only deity of the Jews after his fanatical followers suppressed the worship of other deities by force. We're not sure why the Jews turned to monotheism. One theory is that they took the idea of a supreme deity from the Egyptians, who had unsuccessfully experimented with the idea under Akhneton.
But you're welcome to keep believing your pseudo-history if you want.
Last edited:
I agree.
@SeekerOnThePath
Thank you for the information but this thread is not about the trinity.
I agree with all the scripture you posted but this is not the thread to do that. That subject has been thoroughly covered in the appropriate places.
Thank you for the information but this thread is not about the trinity.
I agree with all the scripture you posted but this is not the thread to do that. That subject has been thoroughly covered in the appropriate places.
Thank you. Good point. No Hindu ever worships what Abrahamics call 'idols'. It's a foreign concept to us. We worship God and gods. Even when we worship the Guru, it's the godliness within the Guru. The statue has two uses, depending on what sect or school of Hinduism you're from. The first is as a reminder, something to focus on. The second, which is the definition of murthi, is to use that statue as a conduit to the energy we call God. (Just as copper conducts electricity, or sound waves can move sound) This second concept, mystical and magical in nature, is far away from an Abrahamic concept.
The Vedas, and more accurately the sacred Agamas go into great detail about this.
But thanks for bringing it up. It's usually me that brings it up in such threads.
Last edited:
There is no comparison. A physical Bible is not an object of worship....for Christians, it is an instruction manual on how to worship. How can I make that clearer?
This thread is about shrines and their significance in different religions. It is about examining the connection of them with all the religions that use them. It has to have a common origin....or is a corruption of something God originally instituted. This is what I am trying to determine here.
What is the Eucharist?
The new covenant instituted by Christ on the night before his death was a replacement for the old covenant as it was prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. It replaced the Jewish Passover for Christians because Jesus became the literal Passover Lamb whose blood was shed to fulfill the law and save those who followed God’s instructions. On the original Passover night, God’s instructions had to be followed to the letter. Unless the blood of the lamb was on your doorpost, the angel of death would not “pass over” your house.
The “Eucharist” (Christendom’s version of the Last Supper) is not a means of communicating with God, but was instituted as a memorial to Christ’s death. It was to be celebrated once a year as the Passover was.....as a commemoration. The taking of the bread and wine are a symbol of being a party to that new covenant and becoming part of the heavenly Kingdom arrangement.....a co-ruler with Christ. Not all are chosen for that role. The majority of Christians will be beneficiaries of that kingdom arrangement.
God’s word is his communication with us. All we need to know is in the instruction manual.....we just have to know what it says, and follow it exactly.
You keep saying that as if you keep repeating it will somehow make it true.....the Bible is not an object of worship.....scripture has been God’s means of communication and instruction, all through history....it's the only way he communicates with his worshippers. Though he has provided interpreters down through the ages to assist us in putting his instructions into practice. There is a vast difference between something God has given us, and something that comes from man's invention......I hope you can appreciate that. When we start introducing things from our own imagination, that is when we can cross the line. Shrines I believe are one of those things, especially for Christians.....making sacred that which God has not sanctioned.
Those for whom it suits their mode of worship...that is their choice....idolatry means nothing to them but a way to worship their gods....so be it. Adopting modes of worship from other religions was not permissible for God's people however.
Your comparison doesn’t hold true....IMO. Christians are warned NOT to have idols....they are admonished to follow what the Bible says....for their own benefit....no more, no less. That excludes idolatry in any form. If a Christian steps outside the boundaries of God’s instructions and incorporate things that he has forbidden, then they are on their own.....they have left God, so he will leave them. How is that not obvious? Look at Christendom! What a chaotic, divided, impotent mess! Where do you see God among them?